One God in Three Persons

[Muckah]

I believe that the Greek word is more accurately rendered "authority". So could you explain why the Father would give Jesus the same exact authority that He Himself has? If He was not God, then we have the Father sharing ALL of His authority in heaven and on earth with someone who is not God. Do you actually believe that God would set up someone who is not God, to worship and idolize besides Himself? Did you forget the 1st and 2nd of the 10 commandments?

Mathew 28:18 doesn't imply Jesus has the same 'power' God has. When the word ALL - especially 'pas', is used without the article it means "every kind of power." Jesus is saying that 'every kind of power' God has is available to him. That power I believe comes from the seven spirits of God.

Jesus shared this power and authority with us through the holy spirit - who has no name.
Jesus was a divine human being and like us - 100% man.

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE."

Hebrews 2:16-17.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. For this reason he had to be made like them,[fn] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

The word 'FIRSTBORN' implies Jesus was created and had a beginning. God the Father is the Supreme being and One True God. The Spirit of God is the power of God manifested by the Seven Spirits of God. There is a contra-distinction between the spirit of God and the holy spirit which was promised to believers as the advocate, enabler, and comforter. The holy spirit is an extra measure of the spirit of Jesus or of an angelic being.

It seems you're saying that because Jesus was worshipped, that makes him God.

Worship is when people want to show respect or honor to others. Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He 'prostrated himself' before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1).
Moses worshipped his father-in-law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7).

The biblical record shows that when someone shows honor to another, they would fall down before another. The act of falling down is worship and shows respect and honor to the one being worshipped.

 

[Muckah]

Scripture does not teach that Christ came into existence at his birth or that he was a created being, as some errantly teach. He always existed. Many Scriptures teach this: Micah 5:2 says, “As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah— from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.” Micah predicted that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem and that he would be the future king of Israel. However, Micah says that he had existed from “the distant past” or “ancient times” (NIV). Isaiah 9:6 says, “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us. He shoulders responsibility and is called: Extraordinary Strategist, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Isaiah predicted that a child would be born who would be called “Everlasting Father,” which means that this person, though born in time, had existed forever. In fact, Jesus said something similar about himself in John 8:58, which caused him to be mocked. He said, “… I tell you the solemn truth, before Abraham came into existence, I am!” When Christ said this, it was not just a reference to his preexistence, but also his deity. When God introduced himself to Israel during their slavery in Egypt, he introduced himself by the name “I Am” (Ex 3:14) and so did Christ. Christ has always existed, since he is God.

Christ’s Deity
As mentioned, not only has Christ always existed, he has eternally existed as God. This is the central aspect of Christ’s person, which many have questioned, struggled with, and denied. Certainly, his deity and eternality are hard to fathom. Yet, this is exactly what Scripture teaches. The author of Hebrews gives God the Father’s testimony about his Son in Hebrews 1:8, saying, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.” In the context, the author of Hebrews argues for the greatness of Christ by comparing him to angels. He does this by quoting God’s words about the Son in Psalm 45:6. God the Father calls the Son, “God,” which God never said about an angel.

In addition, John 1:1-3 says,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

John gives Jesus the title, “the Word,” which means that Christ is the communication of God—the way we get to know more about God and his will. Then John says that “the Word” was “with God,” “was fully God,” and also that the Word created all things. This is a clear declaration of Christ’s deity.

Paul makes the same declaration about Christ in Colossians 1:15-16:

1. Christ’s Preexistence and Deity | Bible.org

Scripture does not teach that Christ came into existence at his birth or that he was a created being, as some errantly teach. He always existed. Many Scriptures teach this: Micah 5:2 says, “As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah— from you a king will...

bible.org

I'm not sure I can cover everything you said today - but I will eventually.

 

[Johann]

I'm not sure I can cover everything you said today - but I will eventually.

I'm always here.
J.

 

[Muckah]

I'm always here.
J.

You quoted the New English Translation. A good overall translation but - All of the New English Translators were - TRINTARIAN!
Every one of them has a full-blown TRINITARIN background.

Pentateuch:

Richard E. Averbeck, Ph.D. (Dropsie College)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Historical Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Richard A. Taylor, Ph.D. (Catholic University of America)
Wisdom Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Major and Minor Prophets:

William D. Barrick, Th.D. (Grace Theological Seminary)
M. Daniel Carroll R., Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Donald R. Glenn, M.A. (Brandeis University)
Michael A. Grisanti, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Brian L. Webster, Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion)
New Testament Translators and Editors Gospels and Acts:

Darrell L. Bock, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Michael H. Burer, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Pauline Letters:

John D. Grassmick, Ph.D. (University of Glasgow)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Harold W. Hoehner, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Jay E. Smith, Ph.D. (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)
General Letters and Revelation:

Buist M. Fanning III, D.Phil. (Oxford University)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Translation Consultants

Wayne Leman, M.A. (University of Kansas)
James Routt, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
English Style Consultant

W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)

 

[Fred]

He doesn't have to be God. This verse explains...

"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

To have "all power" in the universe ("in heaven and in earth") demonstrates Jesus is the Almighty (Mathhew 28:18).

All power = omnipotent = Almighty

 

[Fred]

You quoted the New English Translation. A good overall translation but - All of the New English Translators were - TRINTARIAN!
Every one of them has a full-blown TRINITARIN background.

Pentateuch:

Richard E. Averbeck, Ph.D. (Dropsie College)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Historical Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Richard A. Taylor, Ph.D. (Catholic University of America)
Wisdom Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Major and Minor Prophets:

William D. Barrick, Th.D. (Grace Theological Seminary)
M. Daniel Carroll R., Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Donald R. Glenn, M.A. (Brandeis University)
Michael A. Grisanti, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Brian L. Webster, Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion)
New Testament Translators and Editors Gospels and Acts:

Darrell L. Bock, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Michael H. Burer, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Pauline Letters:

John D. Grassmick, Ph.D. (University of Glasgow)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Harold W. Hoehner, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Jay E. Smith, Ph.D. (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)
General Letters and Revelation:

Buist M. Fanning III, D.Phil. (Oxford University)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Translation Consultants

Wayne Leman, M.A. (University of Kansas)
James Routt, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
English Style Consultant

W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)

Is there a Unitarian translation that you would approve of?

 

[Diserner]

The word 'FIRSTBORN' implies Jesus was created and had a beginning.

I understand at first glance it might seem that way, but I would take issue with this.

When we, as believers, are "born again," this does not indicate we began to exist at conversion.

Yet we are actually called a "new creation," right?

But there was also an "old creation," so this becomes a description of "transformation."

It's like the caterpillar that spins a cocoon and "dies" to what it was, and emerges completely new in form.

So Jesus is the "firstborn" of the resurrection, the first to resurrect from the dead.

Just as being "born again" does not indicate the beginning of our existence, neither does "firstborn" indicate the beginning of Christ's.

 

[Fred]

Jesus, being the "firstborn" is the proper recipient of worship by all the created angels in Hebrews 1:6.
This demonstrates He is God.

 

[Johann]

You quoted the New English Translation. A good overall translation but - All of the New English Translators were - TRINTARIAN!
Every one of them has a full-blown TRINITARIN background.

Pentateuch:

Richard E. Averbeck, Ph.D. (Dropsie College)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Historical Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Richard A. Taylor, Ph.D. (Catholic University of America)
Wisdom Books:

Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Gordon H. Johnston, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Allen P. Ross, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Major and Minor Prophets:

William D. Barrick, Th.D. (Grace Theological Seminary)
M. Daniel Carroll R., Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Robert B. Chisholm, Th.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Dorian Coover-Cox, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Donald R. Glenn, M.A. (Brandeis University)
Michael A. Grisanti, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Eugene H. Merrill, Ph.D. (Columbia University)
Steven H. Sanchez, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Brian L. Webster, Ph.D. (Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion)
New Testament Translators and Editors Gospels and Acts:

Darrell L. Bock, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Michael H. Burer, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Pauline Letters:

John D. Grassmick, Ph.D. (University of Glasgow)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Harold W. Hoehner, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Jay E. Smith, Ph.D. (Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)
General Letters and Revelation:

Buist M. Fanning III, D.Phil. (Oxford University)
W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)
Gregory J. Herrick, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
David K. Lowery, Ph.D. (University of Aberdeen)
Daniel B. Wallace, Ph.D. (Dallas Theological Seminary)
Translation Consultants

Wayne Leman, M.A. (University of Kansas)
James Routt, Ph.D. (Cambridge University)
English Style Consultant

W. Hall Harris III, Ph.D. (University of Sheffield)

I can use anti-Trinitarian Translations and still prove the case for the Triune Godhead.
J.

 

[Muckah]

To have "all power" in the universe ("in heaven and in earth") demonstrates Jesus is the Almighty (Mathhew 28:18).

All power = omnipotent = Almighty

Incorrect - you need to do some homework to understand this. Most TRINITARIANS know better than to use Mathew 28:18 to support omnipotence or Trinity!

VINES...When the word ALL is -

Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety.

 

[Muckah]

I can use anti-Trinitarian Translations and still prove the case for the Triune Godhead.
J.

Good luck on that one. It doesn't matter the translation.

 

[Muckah]

Jesus, being the "firstborn" is the proper recipient of worship by all the created angels in Hebrews 1:6.
This demonstrates He is God.

Trinitarians say, "only God can be worshipped." That's NOT true.

Worship is simple. It's when people want to show respect or honor to others. Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1).
Moses worshipped his father in law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7).
Trinitarians say, "only God can forgive sins." 100% false

The biblical record shows that when someone shows honor to another, they would fall down before another. The act of falling down is worship and shows respect and honor to the one being worshipped.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Quote just ONE verse where FIRSTBORN implies ETERNAL! You can't do it because ONE doesn't exist.

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

And she brought forth her firstborn G4416 son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn G4416 among many brethren.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten G4416 into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn G4416 should touch them.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

 

[Johann]

Good luck on that one. It doesn't matter the translation.

THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL), but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL
"The Angel of the Lord" was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16; 61:1

The Deity of Jesus, and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic early believers.

Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)

the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492

The video clip from rabbinic sources.
J.

 

[Johann]

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

You are mistaken-

"firstborn" This phrase is used

1. in the OT where the firstborn child received a double inheritance to take care of the parents

2. in Ps. 89:27 to refer to the king of Israel

3. in Rabbinical Judaism it came to be a phrase for pre-imminence (cf. Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15,18; Rev. 1:5).

This phrase was the heart of the Arius/Athanasius controversy.

Arius asserted that Jesus was God's highest creation, quoting this passage and Ps. 89:27.

Athanasius asserted that Jesus was full deity and quoted verses 2 and 3; (4) in a figurative sense, Christ is "the first-born of a new humanity which is to be glorified, as its exalted Lord is glorified. . .one coming forth from God to found the new community of saints" (from A Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danken, p. 726); and (5) in the Greco-Roman world the firstborn acted as priest for the family (cf. The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by Moulton and Milligan, p. 557).

FIRSTBORN

This word "firstborn" (prōtotokos) is used in the Bible in several distinct senses.

1. its OT background refers to

a. the firstborn belongs to YHWH (BDB 114, KB 131, cf. Exod. 13:2,12; 22:29; 34:19; Num. 3:13)

b. the pre-imminence of the firstborn son of the family (cf. Deut. 21:17; Ps. 89:27; Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 11:28)

2. its use in Col. 1:15 speaks of Jesus as the first of creation which is a possible OT allusion to Pro. 8:22-31, or God's agent of creation (cf. John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:15-16; Heb. 1:2)

3. its use in Col. 1:15,18; 1 Cor. 15:20,23; Rev. 1:5 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead

4. it is an OT title used of the Messiah (cf. Ps. 89:27; Heb. 1:6; 12:23); it is a title which combines several aspects of the primacy and centrality of Jesus.

Furthermore-

The first born of every creature (πρωτότοκος πασῆς κτίσεως)
Rev., the first-born of all creation. For first-born, see on Rev_1:5; for creation, see on 2Co_5:17. As image points to revelation, so first-born points to eternal preexistence. Even the Rev. is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: in Him were all things created.

The true sense is, born before the creation. Compare before all things, Col_1:17. This fact of priority implies sovereignty. He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are unto (εἰς) Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Psa_89:27; Heb_1:2.
MV.

Be careful.



Do look up the scripture references.
J.

 

[Fred]

Incorrect - you need to do some homework to understand this. Most TRINITARIANS know better than to use Mathew 28:18 to support omnipotence or Trinity!

VINES...When the word ALL is -

Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety.

You ignored the fact that it is used in relation to the heaven and the earth which means the universe.

 

[Fred]

Trinitarians say, "only God can be worshipped." That's NOT true.

Worship is simple. It's when people want to show respect or honor to others. Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1).
Moses worshipped his father in law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7).
Trinitarians say, "only God can forgive sins." 100% false

The biblical record shows that when someone shows honor to another, they would fall down before another. The act of falling down is worship and shows respect and honor to the one being worshipped.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Quote just ONE verse where FIRSTBORN implies ETERNAL! You can't do it because ONE doesn't exist.

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn G4416 son: and he called his name JESUS.

And she brought forth her firstborn G4416 son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn G4416 among many brethren.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn G4416 of every creature:

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn G4416 from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten G4416 into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn G4416 should touch them.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten G4416 of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH."

a. Only God is the proper recipient of prayer.
b. The Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
c. Therefore, the Lord Jesus is God.

 

[Wrangler]

The names of God

There is only one name for the one true God; not Jesus but YHWH. Ex 3:15 says this is his name to be remembered for all generations.

 

[Muckah]

You are mistaken-

"firstborn" This phrase is used

1. in the OT where the firstborn child received a double inheritance to take care of the parents

2. in Ps. 89:27 to refer to the king of Israel

3. in Rabbinical Judaism it came to be a phrase for pre-imminence (cf. Rom. 8:29; Col. 1:15,18; Rev. 1:5).

This phrase was the heart of the Arius/Athanasius controversy.

Arius asserted that Jesus was God's highest creation, quoting this passage and Ps. 89:27.

Athanasius asserted that Jesus was full deity and quoted verses 2 and 3; (4) in a figurative sense, Christ is "the first-born of a new humanity which is to be glorified, as its exalted Lord is glorified. . .one coming forth from God to found the new community of saints" (from A Greek-English Lexicon by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, and Danken, p. 726); and (5) in the Greco-Roman world the firstborn acted as priest for the family (cf. The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament by Moulton and Milligan, p. 557).

FIRSTBORN

This word "firstborn" (prōtotokos) is used in the Bible in several distinct senses.

1. its OT background refers to

a. the firstborn belongs to YHWH (BDB 114, KB 131, cf. Exod. 13:2,12; 22:29; 34:19; Num. 3:13)

b. the pre-imminence of the firstborn son of the family (cf. Deut. 21:17; Ps. 89:27; Luke 2:7; Rom. 8:29; Heb. 11:28)

2. its use in Col. 1:15 speaks of Jesus as the first of creation which is a possible OT allusion to Pro. 8:22-31, or God's agent of creation (cf. John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:15-16; Heb. 1:2)

3. its use in Col. 1:15,18; 1 Cor. 15:20,23; Rev. 1:5 refers to Jesus as the firstborn from the dead

4. it is an OT title used of the Messiah (cf. Ps. 89:27; Heb. 1:6; 12:23); it is a title which combines several aspects of the primacy and centrality of Jesus.

Furthermore-

The first born of every creature (πρωτότοκος πασῆς κτίσεως)
Rev., the first-born of all creation. For first-born, see on Rev_1:5; for creation, see on 2Co_5:17. As image points to revelation, so first-born points to eternal preexistence. Even the Rev. is a little ambiguous, for we must carefully avoid any suggestion that Christ was the first of created things, which is contradicted by the following words: in Him were all things created.

The true sense is, born before the creation. Compare before all things, Col_1:17. This fact of priority implies sovereignty. He is exalted above all thrones, etc., and all things are unto (εἰς) Him, as they are elsewhere declared to be unto God. Compare Psa_89:27; Heb_1:2.
MV.

Be careful.



Do look up the scripture references.
J.

You post so much stuff that it makes it difficult for me to engage. Let's look at the New Testament usage of firstborn or first begotten because that's where Jesus is at.

It is false that firstborn...

points to eternal preexistence.

Go ahead and take a look. Every place the word firstborn is used in the NT it implies a beginning and being created.

G4416 - prōtotokos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G4416 - πρωτότοκος prōtótokos, pro-tot-ok'-os; from and the alternate of ; first-born (usually as noun, literally or figuratively):—firstbegotten(-born).

www.blueletterbible.org

 

[Johann]

There is only one name for the one true God; not Jesus but YHWH. Ex 3:15 says this is his name to be remembered for all generations.

Beg your pardon?

 

[Johann]

You post so much stuff that it makes it difficult for me to engage. Let's look at the New Testament usage of firstborn or first begotten because that's where Jesus is at.

It is false that firstborn...

I hope you listened to the video clip-

Php 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Php 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
Php 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Php 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Johann.