John Piper: Born again through faith in the gospel

Okay. That does not change the fact it's through fairh, not because of faith.
But it falsifies that regeneration precedes faith! Grace and faith precede and are the cause of regeneration/being born again/ being saved. Cause always and necessarily comes before results!

Grace is the effectual power and faith is the means of and conduit through which it is effected. Both are necessary for the effect to be caused! Thus it is because of both that we are saved!


Doug
 
But it falsifies that regeneration precedes faith! Grace and faith precede and are the cause of regeneration/being born again/ being saved. Cause always and necessarily comes before results!


Doug
No it don't. For two reasons, nothing in the flesh pleases God and no one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.

And both grace and faith come from God.
 
No it don't. For two reasons, nothing in the flesh pleases God and no one calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit.
First of all, it is “no it doesn’t”; but that is just for fun! 🤪

Secondly, and more important,
Grace is the effectual power and faith is the means of and conduit through which it is effected. Both are necessary for the effect to be caused! Thus it is because of both that we are saved!

You responded to my last post before I could finish editing it. There is no effect without a preceding cause. Basic science; basic logic! Grace and faith in tandem cause the effect of being born again.


Doug
 
First of all, it is “no it doesn’t”; but that is just for fun! 🤪

Secondly, and more important,


You responded to my last post before I could finish editing it. There is no effect without a preceding cause. Basic science; basic logic! Grace and faith in tandem cause the effect of being born again.


Doug
And that cause would be God. Both grace and faith cone from God. Faith is a means to a end used by God. Grace is the reason, faith is the means. "For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith......not because of faith.
 
And that cause would be God. Both grace and faith cone from God. Faith is a means to an end used by God. Grace is the reason, faith is the means. "For by grace are you saved THROUGH faith......not because of faith.
Then by your logic, it is not because of grace either. You can’t have it both ways!


Doug
 
First of all, it is “no it doesn’t”; but that is just for fun! 🤪

Secondly, and more important,


You responded to my last post before I could finish editing it. There is no effect without a preceding cause. Basic science; basic logic! Grace and faith in tandem cause the effect of being born again.


Doug
Yep 👍
 
Nope. Unsupported
Yes I agree your doctrine is unbiblical whereas mine is 100% biblical as we read below.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life

The Biblical Order Salutis

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30


hope this helps !!!
 
Yes I agree your doctrine is unbiblical whereas mine is 100% biblical as we read below.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Notice what comes first

1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.

John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.

John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.

John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.


Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.

1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life

The Biblical Order Salutis

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30


hope this helps !!!
Never said my doctrine.

Not one of your proof texts mentions regeneration.

QUESTION BEGGING
 
Never said my doctrine.

Not one of your proof texts mentions regeneration.

QUESTION BEGGING
Regeneration is a synonym of life, new life, born again , new birth , new spirit etc … which are mentioned in the passages I referenced.

Next fallacy
 
Question begging
End of discussion the Greek lexicon proves I’m correct.
Next

paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.

HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3824: παλιγγενεσία

παλιγγενεσία (T WH παλιγγενεσία (cf. Tdf. Proleg., p. 77 bottom)), παλιγγενεσίας, ἡ (πάλιν and γένεσις), properly, new birth,
 
End of discussion the Greek lexicon proves I’m correct.
Next

paliggenesia: regeneration, renewal
Original Word: παλιγγενεσία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: paliggenesia
Phonetic Spelling: (pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah)
Definition: regeneration, renewal
Usage: a new birth, regeneration, renewal.

HELPS Word-studies
3824 paliggenesía (from 3825 /pálin, "again" and 1078 /génesis, "birth, beginning") – properly, the coming of new birth because "born again"; regeneration.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3824: παλιγγενεσία

παλιγγενεσία (T WH παλιγγενεσία (cf. Tdf. Proleg., p. 77 bottom)), παλιγγενεσίας, ἡ (πάλιν and γένεσις), properly, new birth,
So the giving of the new heart would be regeneration. Yet you need the new heart to obey God, which He causes, so how did you obey the command to believe still with a heart of stone??



Appeal to authority fallacy which says nothing about faith preceding regeneration.


Your right, end of discussion. Go practice
 
So the giving of the new heart would be regeneration. Yet you need the new heart to obey God, which He causes, so how did you obey the command to believe still with a heart of stone??



Appeal to authority fallacy which says nothing about faith preceding regeneration.


Your right, end of discussion. Go practice
Here comes the dodging and bait n switch
 
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