Again, your assuming they are drawn because they heard and learned. The orginal premise.
Provisionist presupposition debunked.
John 6 the context
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Provisionist presupposition debunked.
As i noted
you are in denial
As I stated you are in denial
scripture establishes that those who believe the testimony of God whether it comes from Moses, scripture, the law and the prophets believe (come to) Christ
Can you challenge that?
That is them being drawn attracted to Christ
Can you deny helko has such a meaning?
john is telling us the same thing over and over
proved by multiple citiations
Sorry. That does not say that is the reason they are drawn. It's the means by which they are drawn.
civic
Well-known member
Let go through John 6 one more time and read and see the CONTEXT.
31- Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
35-36- I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
40- For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day
45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
49-51- Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
53-54- Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
57-58- Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.55 Whoever eats this bread will live forever. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. vs 45.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
conclusion: the above coincides with John opening and closing of the gospel in John 1:11-12 and 20:31- Those who believe and receive Christ will have life eternal and Christ will raise them on the last day. Those are the same exact ones who listen to Moses, the Father and the Son. They are the ones whom are drawn by the Father- those who eat, drink, listen and learn. Notice in John 6 its all, anyone, everyone, whoever. For God so over the world the WHOEVER believes in the Son will have eternal life. see John 3:16. Whoever does not believe remains condemned for they have not believed in Gods one and only Son. see John 3:18. My view of John 6 is consistent with the entire gospel of John from chapter 1 through chapter 20. Johns message is the same from John 1 through John 20. Anyone can come to Jesus and receive eternal life. Christ died for everyone. Only those who believe/receive the Son will have eternal life, become children of God and those who do not believe/receive Him remain condemned.
hope this helps !!!
31- Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
35-36- I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
40- For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day
45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
49-51- Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
53-54- Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
57-58- Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven.55 Whoever eats this bread will live forever. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. vs 45.
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
conclusion: the above coincides with John opening and closing of the gospel in John 1:11-12 and 20:31- Those who believe and receive Christ will have life eternal and Christ will raise them on the last day. Those are the same exact ones who listen to Moses, the Father and the Son. They are the ones whom are drawn by the Father- those who eat, drink, listen and learn. Notice in John 6 its all, anyone, everyone, whoever. For God so over the world the WHOEVER believes in the Son will have eternal life. see John 3:16. Whoever does not believe remains condemned for they have not believed in Gods one and only Son. see John 3:18. My view of John 6 is consistent with the entire gospel of John from chapter 1 through chapter 20. Johns message is the same from John 1 through John 20. Anyone can come to Jesus and receive eternal life. Christ died for everyone. Only those who believe/receive the Son will have eternal life, become children of God and those who do not believe/receive Him remain condemned.
hope this helps !!!
I have a idea
Go through it and point out where it gives a reason why they are drawn. There is a idea.
civic
Well-known member
its all bolded for easy to understand biblical principles.
And not one gives the reason why they are drawn. Bold that part.
Your argument is illogical
Would you deny the reason why they come to Christ is because they were drawn to him?
You made drawing and listening and learning equivalents
Therefore you cannot logically deny the reason they come to Christ is that they listened and learned.
civic
Well-known member
there is no logic in drawing- its a " MYSTERY" in calvinism but the bible give us the clear answer in John 6 and many other places.
In calvinism it is hard to see how they could isolate the drawing from their theology of regeneration as James White did during the debate with Leighton Flowers
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
White therefore involved himself in a contradiction
Not really. The wording did not sound like what I am used to.
civic
Well-known member
Agreed
I believe it might be the ESV
civic
Well-known member
Who does the Father raise up on the last day ?
6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
John 6:45 tells us who and how they are enabled
John 6:45 (NASB 2020) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
And why do thy look to Him? Because they were drawn and heard and learned.
Exactly. That's how they are drawn. Otherwise "no man can come to me". And those who are drawn are raised on the last day.
You do understand listening and learning are not passive actions
