John 6 the context

[TomL]

The text says no such thing.

Provisionist presupposition.


Hearing and learning is the means, not the reason.

Calvinist presupposition

Nowhere do we read of it

You have ignored scripture where God has taught but Israel had not learned

Jeremiah 32:33 (ESV) — 33 They have turned to me their back and not their face. And though I have taught them persistently, they have not listened to receive instruction.

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

 

[Presby02]

Calvinist presupposition

Nowhere do we read of it

You have ignored scripture where God has taught but Israel had not learned

Jeremiah 32:33 (ESV) — 33 They have turned to me their back and not their face. And though I have taught them persistently, they have not listened to receive instruction.

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

The Provisionist Police above admits his claim that they hear and learn is the reason they are drawn.

 

[TomL]

The Provisionist Police above admits his claim that they hear and learn is the reason they are drawn.

You ignored much

viz

Calvinist presupposition

Nowhere do we read of it

You have ignored scripture where God has taught but Israel had not learned

Jeremiah 32:33 (ESV) — 33 They have turned to me their back and not their face. And though I have taught them persistently, they have not listened to receive instruction.

Especially the principle

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

 

[Presby02]

You ignored much

viz

Calvinist presupposition

Nowhere do we read of it

You have ignored scripture where God has taught but Israel had not learned

Jeremiah 32:33 (ESV) — 33 They have turned to me their back and not their face. And though I have taught them persistently, they have not listened to receive instruction.

Especially the principle

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

The text on question is in John 6. It does not sat those drawn are because they heard and learned from the Father.

Principles are subjective and convenient when one cannot prove their presuppositions.


Provisionist presupposition debunked.

 

[TomL]

The text on question is in John 6. It does not sat those drawn are because they heard and learned from the Father.

Principles are subjective and convenient when one cannot prove their presuppositions.


Provisionist presupposition debunked.

LOL

You are in denial and unable to deal with the scripture posted

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

John has a practice of saying the same thing in multiple ways

If you believe Moses you would believe Christ

If you believe scripture you would believe Christ

If you had the word of God in you would believe Christ

If you listen and learn from the father you would come to (believe in) Christ

If you love god

 

[Presby02]

LOL

You are in denial and unable to deal with the scripture posted

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

John has a practice of saying the same thing in multiple ways

If you believe Moses you would believe Christ

If you believe scripture you would believe Christ

If you had the word of God in you would believe Christ

If you listen and learn from the father you would come to (believe in) Christ

If you love god

Let me know when you wish to discuss John 6. The chapter in the OP.

Let me repeat myself
Seems to be the way on this forum.


John 6 does not say the reason you are drawn is because you heard and learned.

To your point, of course we respond
Hence Christ says "will come to me".

If your not willing to deal with John 6 then my work here is done.

Good talk

 

[TomL]

Let me know when you wish to discuss John 6. The chapter in the OP.

Let me repeat myself
Seems to be the way on this forum.


John 6 does not say the reason you are drawn is because you heard and learned.

To your point, of course we respond
Hence Christ says "will come to me".

If your not willing to deal with John 6 then my work here is done.

Good talk

Copout

All scripture is relevant.

Context rules and john 5 comes before John 6

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

John has a practice of saying the same thing in multiple ways

If you believe Moses you would believe Christ

If you believe scripture you would believe Christ

If you had the word of God in you would believe Christ

If you listen and learn from the father you would come to (believe in) Christ

If you are not willing to deal with it and wish to isolate John 6 from its context your work is incomplete

 

[Swordman]

LOL

You are in denial and unable to deal with the scripture posted

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

John has a practice of saying the same thing in multiple ways

If you believe Moses you would believe Christ

If you believe scripture you would believe Christ

If you had the word of God in you would believe Christ

If you listen and learn from the father you would come to (believe in) Christ

If you love god

What translation are you using? I am just curious here. I am not dismissing the translation.

 

[Swordman]

Let me know when you wish to discuss John 6. The chapter in the OP.

Let me repeat myself
Seems to be the way on this forum.


John 6 does not say the reason you are drawn is because you heard and learned.

To your point, of course we respond
Hence Christ says "will come to me".

If your not willing to deal with John 6 then my work here is done.

Good talk

I do not want to get between the two of you, but John 5 is relevant to the interpretation of John 6. Moses does testify to Jesus as the prophet who is to come. John 6 continues that question. I would have to think more about how John 8 applies, but the theme of the prophet recurs frequently in John.

 

[Presby02]

Copout

All scripture is relevant.

Context rules and john 5 comes before John 6

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

John has a practice of saying the same thing in multiple ways

If you believe Moses you would believe Christ

If you believe scripture you would believe Christ

If you had the word of God in you would believe Christ

If you listen and learn from the father you would come to (believe in) Christ

If you are not willing to deal with it and wish to isolate John 6 from its context your work is incomplete

The conversation is about John 6. When your ready let me know.

 

[Presby02]

I do not want to get between the two of you, but John 5 is relevant to the interpretation of John 6. Moses does testify to Jesus as the prophet who is to come. John 6 continues that question. I would have to think more about how John 8 applies, but the theme of the prophet recurs frequently in John.

No one said it isn't. The question is because they heard and learned that is the reason they are drawn. Running to John 5 is simply avoiding the obvious. It doesnt.

 

[TomL]

The conversation is about John 6. When your ready let me know.

You are running from the context established previously

Let me know when you are willing to deal with it

 

[Presby02]

You are running from the context established previously

Let me know when you are willing to deal with it

The premise:
We are drawn because we heard and learned. Never written on the pages of scripture. If your willing to admit John 6 says no such thing we can move on.

 

[TomL]

What translation are you using? I am just curious here. I am not dismissing the translation.

To be honest

No one said it isn't. The question is because they heard and learned that is the reason they are drawn. Running to John 5 is simply avoiding the obvious. It doesnt.

I do not recall.

Do you have a problem with any verse.

It may help me identify the translation.

 

[civic]

Missing the point

Those drawn are those who have heard and believed what they heard

All who hear do not come

In any case there is a previously established principles that ones previous response to God and his message determines their response to Christ

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 5:37–40 (ESV) — 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Spot on Tom the context makes it obvious but we know they hang their hat on an isolated verse ripped out of the context this is just another example of proof texting and eisegesis . It’s exactly what white did in the debate . You can only discuss John 6:45 rofl

 

[civic]

You ignored much

viz

Calvinist presupposition

Nowhere do we read of it

You have ignored scripture where God has taught but Israel had not learned

Jeremiah 32:33 (ESV) — 33 They have turned to me their back and not their face. And though I have taught them persistently, they have not listened to receive instruction.

Especially the principle

One's previous reaction to God, and his messengers and his word determines one's response to Jesus

John 5:23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

John 5:32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the testimony that he bears about me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Not that the testimony that I receive is from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word.

Great rebuttal with scripture

 

[Presby02]

Great rebuttal with scripture

And has nothing to do with one is drawn. Or given to the Son.

 

[civic]

And has nothing to do with one is drawn. Or given to the Son.

Only those who LISTEN, LEARN and are TAUGHT by the Father are the ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Its as simple as that. The question of WHY is obvious from the context. Those who eat, drink, feed, believe, receive, listen, learn and are taught etc........

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

Only those who LISTEN, LEARN and are TAUGHT by the Father are the ones whom the Father draws to the Son.

Its as simple as that. The question of WHY is obvious from the context. Those who eat, drink, feed, believe, receive etc........

hope this helps !!!

It does not say that. Even Flowers agrees that is how they are drawn, not why.

 

[TomL]

The premise:
We are drawn because we heard and learned. Never written on the pages of scripture. If your willing to admit John 6 says no such thing we can move on.

What is never found in scripture is the idea of unconditional election

Coming to Christ is believing on him

John repeats in multiple verses ways in which men can come to (believe upon) Christ

John 5 list a number of them

Starting with believing what Moses wrote, those who believe what Moses wrote come to (believe upon ) Christ

John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

And seeing as Moses was speaking the words of God

Those who heard from and listened to Moses would come to Christ

You wish to isolate john 6 from its context which is poor exegesis