The work of God is for YOU TO BELIEVE

[Biblelesson]

This is between me and @Biblelesson @TomL but I must admit I am a little bit disappointed-the was the shortest, condensed version re the nitty critty of Calvinism I've ever heard and he is already off to another thread.
So I'll stick to my guns and believe what stands written since the Calvinists don't even agree among themselves!
Shalom brother.
Johann.

And tom probably knows more about Calvinism than you and I put together. He went toe to toe debating them for years.

 

[Biblelesson]

So I can't comment?

Sure you can Tom you're more than welcome. You can keep us in line. I know for sure nothing's going to get past you.

 

[Biblelesson]

This is between me and @Biblelesson @TomL but I must admit I am a little bit disappointed-the was the shortest, condensed version re the nitty critty of Calvinism I've ever heard and he is already off to another thread.
So I'll stick to my guns and believe what stands written since the Calvinists don't even agree among themselves!
Shalom brother.
Johann.

I can multitask

 

[civic]

So I can't comment?

Please go ahead

 

[civic]

Sure you can Tom you're more than welcome. You can keep us in line. I know for sure nothing's going to get past you.

Amen

 

[civic]

And tom probably knows more about Calvinism than you and I put together. He went toe to toe debating them for years.

I can vouch for Tom he sure does

 

[Biblelesson]

Okay let's keep this simple And take a look at what Benjamin Warfield said; 'that to be Reformed means to be theocentric.' The Number one interest of Reformed theology is the triune God, for the transcendent-immanent, fatherly God in Jesus Christ is God Himself.

Calvinists are people whose theology is dominated by the idea of God.

“Just as the Methodist places in the foreground the idea of the salvation of sinners; the Baptist, the mystery of regeneration; the Lutheran, justification by faith; the Moravian, the wounds of Christ; the Greek Catholic, the mysticism of the Holy Spirit; and the Romanist, the catholicity of the church, so the Calvinist is always placing in the foreground the thought of God.” Mason Pressly

So to be Reformed is to stress the comprehensive, sovereign, fatherly lordship of God over everything: every area of creation, every creature’s endeavors, and every aspect of the believer’s life. The ruling motif in Calvinism is, “In the beginning God …”

In His relation to us, God has only rights and powers; He binds Himself to duties sovereignly and graciously only by way of covenant. In covenant, He assumes the duties and responsibilities of being a God unto us, but that does not detract from His being the first cause and the last end of all things.

The universe is ruled not by chance or fate, but by the complete, sovereign rule of God. We exist for one purpose: to give Him glory. We have only duties to God, no rights. Any attempt to challenge this truth is doomed.

“Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” Romans 9:20

God enacts His laws for every part of our lives and demands unconditional obedience. We are called to serve Him with body and soul, in worship and daily work, every second of every day.

So if you are Reformed you will be concerned with the complete character of the Creator-creature relationship. It is to view all of life coram Deo, that is, lived before the face of God.

The Calvinist is the man who sees God: God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Everywhere he sees God in His mighty stepping, everywhere he feels the working of His mighty arm, the throbbing of His mighty heart. The Calvinist is the man who sees God behind all phenomena and in all that occurs recognizes the hand of God, working out His will. [The Calvinist] makes the attitude of the soul to God in prayer its permanent attitude in all its life activities; [he] casts himself on the grace of God alone, excluding every trace of dependence on self from the whole work of his salvation. Benjamin Warfield

 

[praise_yeshua]

So you agree salvation is both synergistic and monergism--as outlined here--


Synergism:
Synergism comes from the Greek word "synergos," which means "working together." In a theological context, synergism is the view that human free will and divine grace cooperate in the process of salvation. This means that while God's grace initiates and enables salvation, human beings must respond and cooperate with that grace through their faith and actions.

Key Points of Synergism:
Human Responsibility: Humans have a role in accepting or rejecting God's grace.
Free Will: Human free will is involved in the process of salvation.

Divine-Human Cooperation: Salvation is seen as a cooperative effort between God and humans.

Scriptural Support for Synergism:

Philippians 2:12-13 (NIV): "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose."
James 2:17 (NIV): "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

Matthew 23:37 (NIV): "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."


Theological Traditions Emphasizing Synergism:

Arminianism: Emphasizes prevenient grace, which is grace that precedes human decision and enables humans to respond to God’s call.

Eastern Orthodoxy: Teaches that salvation involves cooperation between God's grace and human freedom.

Roman Catholicism: Holds that human free will cooperates with divine grace in the process of justification and sanctification.


Monergism:

Monergism comes from the Greek word "monergos," which means "working alone." In a theological context, monergism is the view that God alone is responsible for the initiation and completion of salvation. This means that human beings do not cooperate with God in the act of being saved; rather, salvation is solely an act of God's grace.

Key Points of Monergism:

Divine Sovereignty: God alone initiates and completes the work of salvation.

Human Inability: Humans are seen as totally depraved and unable to contribute to their salvation.

Grace Alone: Salvation is entirely a work of God’s grace, with no human cooperation.

Scriptural Support for Monergism:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV): "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."

John 6:44 (NIV): "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Romans 9:16 (NIV): "It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy."

Theological Traditions Emphasizing Monergism:

Calvinism: Emphasizes the doctrines of total depravity, unconditional election, and irresistible grace, which align with the monergistic view.

Reformed Theology: Generally holds to the view that God’s grace alone is responsible for salvation, without human cooperation.


Conclusion:
1. Synergism asserts that salvation is a cooperative process between God and humans, emphasizing human responsibility and free will in responding to God's grace.

2. Monergism asserts that salvation is entirely the work of God, emphasizing divine sovereignty and human inability to contribute to salvation.
You confessed that--
"I have said repeatedly here that salvation is BOTH synergism and monergism. The power in salvation is God's alone. However, belief is a requirement from man."

Then it would seem, biblically, the Scriptures lean towards Reformed theology @praise_yeshua as I believe point 2 is biblicallly correct.

Here is my understanding of "the will" it cannot act independently and apart from the will of our Lord Christ Jesus for scripture declares "I have come to do Your will"

Elsewhere it is written that we are to deny the ego eimi-take up our cross and keep on following our Master-i.e. A "Detroned boule/thelema" a "will" wholly swallowed up in the sweet will of Christ Jesus-a "will" that is keeping in step with the will of the Holy Spirit..

Do we agree @praise_yeshua?

There are many details with this construct you've presented that I disagree with. The basis of my belief that is both is detailed in my previous response.

The power to save is God's alone. Faith is required from the freewill of man.

 

[civic]

There are many details with this construct you've presented that I disagree with. The basis of my belief that is both is detailed in my previous response.

The power to save is God's alone. Faith is required from the freewill of man.

Amen.

 

[TomL]

Okay let's keep this simple And take a look at what Benjamin Warfield said; 'that to be Reformed means to be theocentric.' The Number one interest of Reformed theology is the triune God, for the transcendent-immanent, fatherly God in Jesus Christ is God Himself.

Calvinists are people whose theology is dominated by the idea of God.

“Just as the Methodist places in the foreground the idea of the salvation of sinners; the Baptist, the mystery of regeneration; the Lutheran, justification by faith; the Moravian, the wounds of Christ; the Greek Catholic, the mysticism of the Holy Spirit; and the Romanist, the catholicity of the church, so the Calvinist is always placing in the foreground the thought of God.” Mason Pressly

So to be Reformed is to stress the comprehensive, sovereign, fatherly lordship of God over everything: every area of creation, every creature’s endeavors, and every aspect of the believer’s life. The ruling motif in Calvinism is, “In the beginning God …”

In His relation to us, God has only rights and powers; He binds Himself to duties sovereignly and graciously only by way of covenant. In covenant, He assumes the duties and responsibilities of being a God unto us, but that does not detract from His being the first cause and the last end of all things.

The universe is ruled not by chance or fate, but by the complete, sovereign rule of God. We exist for one purpose: to give Him glory. We have only duties to God, no rights. Any attempt to challenge this truth is doomed.

“Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” Romans 9:20

God enacts His laws for every part of our lives and demands unconditional obedience. We are called to serve Him with body and soul, in worship and daily work, every second of every day.

So if you are Reformed you will be concerned with the complete character of the Creator-creature relationship. It is to view all of life coram Deo, that is, lived before the face of God.

The Calvinist is the man who sees God: God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Everywhere he sees God in His mighty stepping, everywhere he feels the working of His mighty arm, the throbbing of His mighty heart. The Calvinist is the man who sees God behind all phenomena and in all that occurs recognizes the hand of God, working out His will. [The Calvinist] makes the attitude of the soul to God in prayer its permanent attitude in all its life activities; [he] casts himself on the grace of God alone, excluding every trace of dependence on self from the whole work of his salvation. Benjamin Warfield

And unfortunately God in evil. That is the flip side of Calvinism which imparts to God a character and a nature contrary to the bible

 

[Johann]

There are many details with this construct you've presented that I disagree with. The basis of my belief that is both is detailed in my previous response.

The power to save is God's alone. Faith is required from the freewill of man.

Which immediately affirms that you were never aware of this construct. Lately, the more I read and study the Scriptures I find Synergism to NOT be the only option!
As if God needs our help-"working together" What, pray tell. "working together?

We cannot even "work together" on this platform!
J.

 

[Johann]

Okay let's keep this simple And take a look at what Benjamin Warfield said; 'that to be Reformed means to be theocentric.' The Number one interest of Reformed theology is the triune God, for the transcendent-immanent, fatherly God in Jesus Christ is God Himself.

Calvinists are people whose theology is dominated by the idea of God.

“Just as the Methodist places in the foreground the idea of the salvation of sinners; the Baptist, the mystery of regeneration; the Lutheran, justification by faith; the Moravian, the wounds of Christ; the Greek Catholic, the mysticism of the Holy Spirit; and the Romanist, the catholicity of the church, so the Calvinist is always placing in the foreground the thought of God.” Mason Pressly

So to be Reformed is to stress the comprehensive, sovereign, fatherly lordship of God over everything: every area of creation, every creature’s endeavors, and every aspect of the believer’s life. The ruling motif in Calvinism is, “In the beginning God …”

In His relation to us, God has only rights and powers; He binds Himself to duties sovereignly and graciously only by way of covenant. In covenant, He assumes the duties and responsibilities of being a God unto us, but that does not detract from His being the first cause and the last end of all things.

The universe is ruled not by chance or fate, but by the complete, sovereign rule of God. We exist for one purpose: to give Him glory. We have only duties to God, no rights. Any attempt to challenge this truth is doomed.

“Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” Romans 9:20

God enacts His laws for every part of our lives and demands unconditional obedience. We are called to serve Him with body and soul, in worship and daily work, every second of every day.

So if you are Reformed you will be concerned with the complete character of the Creator-creature relationship. It is to view all of life coram Deo, that is, lived before the face of God.

The Calvinist is the man who sees God: God in nature, God in history, God in grace. Everywhere he sees God in His mighty stepping, everywhere he feels the working of His mighty arm, the throbbing of His mighty heart. The Calvinist is the man who sees God behind all phenomena and in all that occurs recognizes the hand of God, working out His will. [The Calvinist] makes the attitude of the soul to God in prayer its permanent attitude in all its life activities; [he] casts himself on the grace of God alone, excluding every trace of dependence on self from the whole work of his salvation. Benjamin Warfield

Just woke up-having my coffee @Biblelesson and you have my full, undivided attention.
Johann
Guess you know @TomL?--And all the "Nay-sayers?" Even those who were "INTO Calvinism" fell out-and now can't decide which "fence" to sit on?

If you can give these "pokers" a deaf ear-I will do the same and together- you and I- can play Chess. That's a promise.
Just tag me
Johann

 

[Johann]

I can multitask

No problemos-I actually logged out "ear;y this morning" still having a conversation with you when I noticed the "swoopers" swoopin' in.
J.

 

[Johann]

And tom probably knows more about Calvinism than you and I put together. He went toe to toe debating them for years.

How would you feel if someone claims "I was a Calvinist for over 40 years and you can't tell me nothin'!" yet slander and berate Calvin's works and Institutes online, publicly-calling others who might want to lean to Reformed Theology "heretics?"

So my hat off to you Sir-welcome to the "Circus"

Johann.

 

[Johann]

So I can't comment?

I would rather you NOT comment since this is between me and @Biblelesson

 

[mailmandan]

The Context, the biblical narrative that calvinists ignore and focus on one verse removed from the context to give it the opposite meaning of what Jesus has been teaching throughout John 6,

John 6
When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, “Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?” 6 He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7 Philip answered him, “It would take more than half a year’s wages to buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!”

8 Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, spoke up, 9 “Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?”

10 Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” There was plenty of grass in that place, and they sat down (about five thousand men were there). 11 Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12 When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, “Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted.” 13 So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15 Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

Jesus Walks on the Water​

16 When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17 where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18 A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19 When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were frightened. 20 But he said to them, “It is I; don’t be afraid.” 21 Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.

22 The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23 Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24 Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

Jesus the Bread of Life​

25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: that you believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

conclusion: anyone who eats the heavenly manna has life and the work of God is that anyone can believe in the Son to have everlasting life. God doesn't do the work for you ( believing ) its man who must eat/drink so that they may have life in the Son by believing in the One who was sent from the Father.

hope this helps !!!

Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. In John 6:35, we read - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus is using figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. Jesus explains the sense of this passage when He says in John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

Eating and drinking is not literal cannibalism here through transubstantiation as Roman Catholics teach, but the receiving of God’s grace by believing in Christ for salvation, as Jesus makes clear by repeating the same truths below:

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" and "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" ends in the same result, receiving eternal life. Jesus is the Bread of Life; we eat of Him and are satisfied when we believe in Him. Bread represents the "staff of life" - sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life. The source of physical life is blood - "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.

 

[mailmandan]

Subject Heading:- The work of God is for YOU TO BELIEVE

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.'
(Joh 6:28-29)

Praise God!

Amen! In John 6:29, Jesus clearly said - "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Of course, Jesus was not implying that
believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, but this is what God requires, that you believe in Him Whom He has sent. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

 

[Rockson]

Okay let's keep this simple And take a look at what Benjamin Warfield said; 'that to be Reformed means to be theocentric.' The Number one interest of Reformed theology is the triune God, for the transcendent-immanent, fatherly God in Jesus Christ is God Himself.

Agreed and not a unique belief held only by Reformed.

Calvinists are people whose theology is dominated by the idea of God.

Many of us would say a wrong idea of God.

So to be Reformed is to stress the comprehensive, sovereign, fatherly lordship of God over everything: every area of creation, every creature’s endeavors, and every aspect of the believer’s life. The ruling motif in Calvinism is, “In the beginning God …”

Sorry but people that are not Reformed or Calvinistic believe in God's sovereignty just as much. Reformed and Calvs don't get to own the word sovereignty nor how it has to be interpreted in how God plays it out.

We have only duties to God, no rights.

Granted this has all the appearance of great humility but really it's not what the Creator wants people to believe. He's made covenants and not only promises to keep them but takes it to a higher step.....he swears to keep his word. Heb 6:13 This was done for ONE reason. So one can have and know they have a sure foundation in what God promises the obedient what he'll do. Some may not like the term but they could be called covenant rights or rights under the covenant. To say we only have duties and no sure foundation to believe anything sorry but it's a misplaced understanding of the character of God.

God enacts His laws for every part of our lives and demands unconditional obedience.

I have no problem with God demanding or insisting upon unconditional obedience but actually you won't necessary find that in scripture. He did go along with allowing Israel having a King which wasn't his perfect will but permissive. He also told Moses originally to go back to Egypt no mention in the commission to have Aaron to be with him. Moses resisted the thought of it so God added in Aaron.

So if you are Reformed you will be concerned with the complete character of the Creator-creature relationship.

IMO that would be a totally bogus claim to say people not Reformed don't have this put together well in their understanding. How you think God relates to his creation may not be correct at all.

The Calvinist is the man who sees God: God in nature, God in history, God in grace.

But just a presumptuous, unjustified claim to say Non Calvinists don't see the same. I see God in all those things but what a Calvinists call their doctrines of grace and I'm speaking primarily of what's stated in T.U.L.I.P. does not reflect what could be called the true way God releases his grace.

The Calvinist is the man who sees God behind all phenomena and in all that occurs recognizes the hand of God, working out His will.

They need to go back to the drawing board and realize and admit that all things are NOT the will of God that takes place on the earth. If it was God would never be grieved. The Bible says in many places he has been

[The Calvinist] makes the attitude of the soul to God in prayer its permanent attitude in all its life activities;

Actually just my opinion but I'd say they're more prone not to that than to do as compared to other Christians. I'm not saying there isn't exceptions with certain ones but if one actually believes all things are ordained that everything that has happened there is no chance it wouldn't have anyway.....well what's the motivation to pray?

 

[Rockson]

How would you feel if someone claims "I was a Calvinist for over 40 years and you can't tell me nothin'!" yet slander and berate Calvin's works and Institutes online, publicly-calling others who might want to lean to Reformed Theology "heretics?"

So my hat off to you Sir-welcome to the "Circus"

Johann.

A person who was a Calvinist for over 40 years might indeed be in a place where he has pretty much seen it all. Perhaps not but perhaps they have. Not necessarily an invalid claim. And you use extremely strong terms like slander and berate Calvin's writings. Is there not anything in you which will acknowledge one had a right to test out his beliefs and challenge them if need be? Sorry but you don't have to claim people are not of a noble in good character in doing this. I suggest the Bible would call it wisdom.

 

[Johann]

A person who was a Calvinist for over 40 years might indeed be in a place where he has pretty much seen it all. Perhaps not but perhaps they have. Not necessarily an invalid claim. And you use extremely strong terms like slander and berate Calvin's writings. Is there not anything in you which will acknowledge one had a right to test out his beliefs and challenge them if need be? Sorry but you don't have to claim people are not of a noble in good character in doing this. I suggest the Bible would call it wisdom.

Guess we are going to see who are the sheep and who are the goats in the day of Judgement since a person who was "ensnared" over 40 years in Calvinism MUST be relatively new in the faith, having to unlearn and relearn. That is common sense.

And last time I've checked Scripture declares there is No one good, no, not one.
Johann.