John 6 the context

[TomL]

Point 2 –

This point is based on some research I did a few years back and a presentation I did at SBL in 2021 on John 6:35–40, the first part of the bread of life discourse. I want to present a summary of this before I approach John 6:41–51 because the same approach can be used there.

I want to start by saying this summary may not do the whole study justice, but I do offer it as a starting point for further investigation.

When examining 6:35–40, I noticed a difference in pronouns that most had ignored or explained away. In verses 37 and 39, John (speaking for Jesus) used the neuter PAN (“everything”) to describe what was given to Jesus. He then switches to the masculine PAS (“everyone”) when speaking of people who come to him.

The common interpretation of this was that the neuter was simply being used as a masculine and this referred to “everyone” who the Father gives to Jesus. Indeed, even the NIV translated this as “All whom the Father gives me . . .” Rudolf Schnackenburg goes so far as to say the use of the neuter for the masculine is common. Others, like Ray Brown, F. F. Bruce and Max Zerwick, suggest that the use of the neuter denotes a corporate giving to Christ. That is, the Father gives all who believe in Jesus.

Robertson notes

All that (παν ὁ [pān ho]). Collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in 6:39; 17:2, 24; 1 John 5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like ἑν [hen] in 17:21 underlies this use of παν ὁ [pān ho]. Giveth me (διδωσιν μοι [didōsin moi]). For the idea that the disciples are given to the Son see also 6:39, 65; 10:29; 17:2, 6, 9, 12, 24; 18:9. I will in no wise cast out (οὐ μη ἐκβαλω ἐξω [ou mē ekbalō exō]). Strong double negation as in verse 35 with second aorist active subjunctive of βαλλω [ballō]. Definite promise of Jesus to welcome the one who comes.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:37.

Alford

The whole body of believers on Christ are spoken of by Him, here and in ch. 17, as given to Him by the Father. But Bengel’s observation is very important: “πᾶν—vocula momentosissima, et, collatis iis quæ sequuntur, consideratu dignissima. Nam in sermonibus Jesu Christi, quod Pater ipsi dedit, id, et singulari numero et neutro genere, appellatur omne; qui ad ipsum, Filium, veniunt, ii masculino genere vel etiam plurali numero describuntur,—omnis, vel illi. Pater Filio totam quasi massam dedit, ut omnes quos dedit unum sint; id universum Filius singulatim evolvit, in exsecutione. Hinc illud in xvii. 2, ut omne quod dedisti ei, det eis vitam æternam.” See also 1 John 5:4. See further on πᾶν ὃ δίδωσίν μοι ὁ πατήρ, ver. 44.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 762.

translation

But Bengel's observation is very important: “πᾶν—the most important words, and, compared with what follows, most worthy of consideration. For in the words of Jesus Christ, what the Father gave to himself, that is, both singular number and of no kind, is called everything; those who come to him, the Son, are described in the masculine gender or even in the plural number, - all, or those. The Father gave the Son the whole mass, as it were, so that all whom He gave were one; the Son unfolds that universe one by one, in execution

 

[Swordman]

Fascinating. I didn't notice the change from PAN to PAS until you brought it up.

There is more to the analysis, but I do not think I want to share it here.

 

[TomL]

There is more to the analysis, but I do not think I want to share it here.

Why?

 

[Swordman]

Robertson notes

All that (παν ὁ [pān ho]). Collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in 6:39; 17:2, 24; 1 John 5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like ἑν [hen] in 17:21 underlies this use of παν ὁ [pān ho]. Giveth me (διδωσιν μοι [didōsin moi]). For the idea that the disciples are given to the Son see also 6:39, 65; 10:29; 17:2, 6, 9, 12, 24; 18:9. I will in no wise cast out (οὐ μη ἐκβαλω ἐξω [ou mē ekbalō exō]). Strong double negation as in verse 35 with second aorist active subjunctive of βαλλω [ballō]. Definite promise of Jesus to welcome the one who comes.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:37.

Alford

The whole body of believers on Christ are spoken of by Him, here and in ch. 17, as given to Him by the Father. But Bengel’s observation is very important: “πᾶν—vocula momentosissima, et, collatis iis quæ sequuntur, consideratu dignissima. Nam in sermonibus Jesu Christi, quod Pater ipsi dedit, id, et singulari numero et neutro genere, appellatur omne; qui ad ipsum, Filium, veniunt, ii masculino genere vel etiam plurali numero describuntur,—omnis, vel illi. Pater Filio totam quasi massam dedit, ut omnes quos dedit unum sint; id universum Filius singulatim evolvit, in exsecutione. Hinc illud in xvii. 2, ut omne quod dedisti ei, det eis vitam æternam.” See also 1 John 5:4. See further on πᾶν ὃ δίδωσίν μοι ὁ πατήρ, ver. 44.

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 1; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 762.

translation

But Bengel's observation is very important: “πᾶν—the most important words, and, compared with what follows, most worthy of consideration. For in the words of Jesus Christ, what the Father gave to himself, that is, both singular number and of no kind, is called everything; those who come to him, the Son, are described in the masculine gender or even in the plural number, - all, or those. The Father gave the Son the whole mass, as it were, so that all whom He gave were one; the Son unfolds that universe one by one, in execution

The collective approach is common and is favored by Arminians. Comparing it to the following is generally the approach of Calvinists, although they take an individualistic view of the giving.

However, I do not think either should be preferred. The relative pronoun (the HO of PAN HO) more often points to an antecedent. The best neuter antecedent would be the "work." Broadening the context a bit, we can see this beginning in John 5 -

But Jesus answered them, “My Father is still working, and I also am working. (5:17)​

​

19 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing; and he will show him greater works than these, so that you will be astonished. 21 Indeed, just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. 22 The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. (5:19-24 NRSV)​

30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’ ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” (6:30-34 NRSV)​

 

[Swordman]

Why?

1. It would take too long.
2. I have a few commitments that take priority.
3. I am trying to submit this for publication. I just need to make a few changes.
4. I plan to include the analysis in a larger project I am working on.

 

[civic]

You're rewriting the text. It says, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” It doesn't say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless they have learned from the Father.”

Those who have heard and learned from the Father are the ones who come to the Son. Those who did not will not come. Those who did are drawn to the Son. Those who hear the Father , hear the Son- its One in the same voice.

Those are ACTIVE things people do- they hear and learn from another who TEACHES them.

When you were in school did you have teachers in grades 1-12 ? yes or no
When you were in college did you have teachers ? yes or no

Did you pass your grades ? yes or no

Who passed the grades you or the teacher ?

Was it because you LISTENED and LEARNED ? yes or no

This is common sense 101. Which also just happens to be biblical truth.

hoe this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

Those who have heard and learned from the Father are the ones who come to the Son. Those who did not will not come. Those who did are drawn to the Son. Those who hear the Father , hear the Son- its One in the same voice.

Those are ACTIVE things people do- they hear and learn from another who TEACHES them.

When you were in school did you have teachers in grades 1-12 ? yes or no
When you were in college did you have teachers ? yes or no

Did you pass your grades ? yes or no

Who passed the grades you or the teacher ?

Was it because you LISTENED and LEARNED ? yes or no

This is common sense 101. Which also just happens to be biblical truth.

hoe this helps !!!

The point is that those who hear and learn will come. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn. The text does not say the hearing and learning is why they are drawn.

 

[civic]

The point is that those who hear and learn will come. Hearing and learning is how they are drawn. The text does not say the hearing and learning is why they are drawn.

How can you say its not the why ?

they are the very ones who believe in the Son and follow Him.

 

[Presby02]

How can you say its not the why ?

Easy. The text never says any such thing. Another presupposition from the presupposition police.

Drawing is the reason they come. Drawing and learning is the means.

 

[civic]

Easy. The text never says any such thing. Another presupposition from the presupposition police.

Drawing is the reason they come. Drawing and learning is the means.

no listening and learning is the prerequisite to be drawn to the Son. just like receiving and believing in the Son is the prerequisite/condition -why/how one becomes a child of God. John 1:11-12, Galatians 3:26.

hope this helps !!!

Nice try.

 

[Presby02]

no listening and learning is the prerequisite to be drawn to the Son. just like receiving and believing in the Son is the prerequisite -why/how one becomes a child of God. John 1:11-12, Galatians 3:26.

hope this helps !!!

Nice try.

The text never says that. You simply presuppose it.

 

[civic]

The text never says that. You simply presuppose it.

John 1:11- He came to His own and His own did not RECIEVE Him.

John 1:12 in a single verse combines receiving and believing that is done by the very ones who are saved.

Those who receive the Son and Believe in the Son are the ones as a result of believing/receiving- become children of God.

John 1:12- Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Galatians 3:26- “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

conclusion: One becomes a child of God after believing/receiving Christ.

 

[Presby02]

John 1:11- He came to His own and His own did not RECIEVE Him.

John 1:12 in a single verse combines receiving and believing that is done by the very ones who are saved.

Those who receive the Son and Believe in the Son are the ones as a result of believing/receiving- become children of God.

John 1:12- Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God
Galatians 3:26- “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.”

conclusion: One becomes a child of God after believing/receiving Christ.

The text is John 6 remember? And your trying to change the topic.

 

[civic]

The text is John 6 remember? And your trying to change the topic.

No the ones who believe/receive are the same ones who are taught and learning from Moses, the Father and the Son.

The ones who do not believe/receive the Son are the same ones who do not listen and learn from Moses and the Father and are not drawn to the Son. John is consistent throughout His gospel identifying those who come to the Son.

God never contradict Himself in His word its consistent throughout His word.

Those who listen and learn are the exact same ones who receive and believe in Him. They are the ones who are called the children of God, His sheep, His elect etc..........

God draws- Monergism
Man believes/receives, listens, learns, follows- Synergism.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

No the ones who believe/receive are the same ones who are taught and learning from Moses, the Father and the Son.

The ones who do not believe/receive the Son are the same ones who do not listen and learn from Moses and the Father and are not drawn to the Son. John is consistent throughout His gospel identifying those who come to the Son.

God never contradict Himself in His word its consistent throughout His word.

Those who listen and learn are the exact same ones who receive and believe in Him. They are the ones who are called the children of God, His sheep, His elect etc..........

God draws- Monergism
Man believes/receives, listens, learns, follows- Synergism.

hope this helps !!! the Bible says no such thing. Running to John 1 does not prove because they are drawn is because they heard and learned. That's the question remember?

 

[Presby02]

No the ones who believe/receive are the same ones who are taught and learning from Moses, the Father and the Son.

The ones who do not believe/receive the Son are the same ones who do not listen and learn from Moses and the Father and are not drawn to the Son. John is consistent throughout His gospel identifying those who come to the Son.

God never contradict Himself in His word its consistent throughout His word.

Those who listen and learn are the exact same ones who receive and believe in Him. They are the ones who are called the children of God, His sheep, His elect etc..........

God draws- Monergism
Man believes/receives, listens, learns, follows- Synergism.

hope this helps !!!

Sorry, but we were discussing John 6 and your presupposing those who are drawn because they had heard and learned. Another presupposition from the presupposition police. Running to John 1 don't help.

 

[civic]

Sorry, but we were discussing John 6 and your presupposing those who are drawn because they had heard and learned. Another presupposition from the presupposition police. Running to John 1 don't help.

all from John 6 below :

31- Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
35-36- I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
40- For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day
45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
49-51- Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
53-54- Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
57-58- Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

conclusion: the above coincides with John opening and closing of the gospel in John 1:11-12 and 20:31- Those who believe and receive Christ will have life eternal and Christ will raise them on the last day. Those are the same exact ones who listen to Moses, the Father and the Son. They are the ones whom are drawn by the Father- those who eat, drink, listen and learn. Notice in John 6 its all, anyone, everyone, whoever. For God so over the world the WHOEVER believes in the Son will have eternal life. see John 3:16. Whoever does not believe remains condemned for they have not believed in Gods one and only Son. see John 3:18. My view of John 6 is consistent with the entire gospel of John from chapter 1 through chapter 20. Johns message is the same from John 1 through John 20. Anyone can come to Jesus and receive eternal life. Christ died for everyone. Only those who believe/receive the Son will have eternal life, become children of God and those who do not believe/receive Him remain condemned.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Presby02]

all from John 6 below :

31- Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
35-36- I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
40- For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day
45- It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
49-51- Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever.
53-54- Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
57-58- Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

conclusion: the above coincides with John opening and closing of the gospel in John 1:11-12 and 20:31- Those who believe and receive Christ will have life eternal and Christ will raise them on the last day. Those are the same exact ones who listen to Moses, the Father and the Son. They are the ones whom are drawn by the Father- those who eat, drink, listen and learn. Notice in John 6 its all, anyone, everyone, whoever. For God so over the world the WHOEVER believes in the Son will have eternal life. see John 3:16. Whoever does not believe remains condemned for they have not believed in Gods one and only Son. see John 3:18.

hope this helps !!!

Wonderful. Still nothing about hearing and learning being the reason you are drawn. Good to see you back to the relevant text though.

 

[civic]

Wonderful. Still nothing about hearing and learning being the reason you are drawn. Good to see you back to the relevant text though.

The text is self explanatory.

Why definition:

adverb​

1. For what purpose, reason, or cause; with what intention, justification, or motive.

I have made my case for the why unless you want to redefine the meaning of why.

 

[Presby02]

The text is self explanatory.

Why definition:

adverb​

1. For what purpose, reason, or cause; with what intention, justification, or motive.

I have made my case for the why unless you want to redefine the meaning of why.

It is self explanatory. Drawimg is the reason they come by hearing and learning from the Father.


The text speaks for itself. It does not say what your claiming it says. Your presupposing.