civic
Well-known member
No only those who listen/learn, eat and drink are those who are drawn to the Son by the Father. There is a condition which answers the why question.
John 6 the context
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Great, but that is not the reason they are drawn. They are means to a end. The text, as you said, is self explanatory.
civic
Well-known member
Sure it is as I demonstrated through John 6 and the rest of the gospel of John
The drawing is conditional upon those who listen, learn, eat and drink. Things man is responsible for doing. There is no unconditional election in the passage there are many conditions. There is no irresistible grace since Gods chosen/ elect Israel died in the wilderness. Why ? Because they refused to listen and learn from the Father. They died in unbelief. Gospel basics 101.
Still nothing in the text as to why they are drawn in the first place. It does not sat eating and drinking or hearing and learning are the reason they are drawn. Drawing is the reason they come and all those drawn will be raised on the last day. Praise GodSure it is as I demonstrated through John 6 and the rest of the gospel of John
The drawing is conditional upon those who listen, learn, eat and drink. Things man is responsible for doing. There is no unconditional election in the passage there are many conditions. There is no irresistible grace since Gods chosen/ elect Israel died in the wilderness. Why ? Because they refused to listen and learn from the Father. They died in unbelief. Gospel basics 101.
Another Provisionist presupposition debunked.
civic
Well-known member
Cart before the horse. Those who listen and learn from the Father are drawn to the Son by the Father.
Those who do not listen and learn from the Father are not drawn to the Son by the Father.
Its the same from Genesis - Revelation- Those who believe are the ones who become children of God and those who do not believe are the ones who remain in condemnation. The message of faith never changed. The way of salvation has always been one of faith.
hope this helps !!!
If only it said that right?Cart before the horse. Those who listen and learn from the Father are drawn to the Son by the Father.
civic
Well-known member
it does.
Quote itit does.
Robertson is a Calvinist
All that (παν ὁ [pān ho]). Collective use of the neuter singular, classic idiom, seen also in 6:39; 17:2, 24; 1 John 5:4. Perhaps the notion of unity like ἑν [hen] in 17:21 underlies this use of παν ὁ [pān ho]. Giveth me (διδωσιν μοι [didōsin moi]). For the idea that the disciples are given to the Son see also 6:39, 65; 10:29; 17:2, 6, 9, 12, 24; 18:9. I will in no wise cast out (οὐ μη ἐκβαλω ἐξω [ou mē ekbalō exō]). Strong double negation as in verse 35 with second aorist active subjunctive of βαλλω [ballō]. Definite promise of Jesus to welcome the one who comes.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:37.
Wallace notes there are many exceptions to the concord principle regarding a pronoun and its antecedent
The basic rule for the Greek pronoun is that it agrees with its antecedent in gender and number, but its case is determined by the pronoun’s function in its own clause. This concord principle, however, has many exceptions.
Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics - Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Zondervan Publishing House and Galaxie Software, 1996), 316.
That's what I said. They are not drawn because they heard and learned.
That is the opposite of what I stated
That is how they were drawn
All who hear and learn come
John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.
And hath learned (και μαθων [kai mathōn]). Second aorist active participle of μανθανω [manthanō]. It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.
A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45.
Everyone who hears/has heard from the Father and learns/has learned from him comes to me.” To those who listen, the Father brings recognition of who Jesus really is; those so convinced come to Jesus for salvation.
Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 137–138.
That's what I said. That is how they are drawn, not why they are drawn.
To be drawn they must hear and learn. Hear and learn are active participles.
It is what they must do
Those who believe the Father believe Jesus
Those who do not believe the father will not believe Jesus
thus
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
those who heard and learned from the prophets and the scripture will come to jesus.
John 5:39–40 (KJV 1900) — 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
How one has responded to God determines how they will respond to Christ
those who fail to honor the father will not honor Christ
John 5:42–44 (KJV 1900) — 42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
They are drawn by the means of hearing and learning. They come and are raised on the last day. They do not come because they heard and learned.
Learning is in their purview
God can teach, but it does not mean they will learn
Jeremiah 32:33–34 (KJV 1900) — 33 And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction. 34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
Isaiah 48:17–19 (ESV) — 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you in the way you should go. 18 Oh that you had paid attention to my commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea; 19 your offspring would have been like the sand, and your descendants like its grains; their name would never be cut off or destroyed from before me.”
Isaiah 65:11–12 (ESV) — 11 But you who forsake the LORD, who forget my holy mountain, who set a table for Fortune and fill cups of mixed wine for Destiny, 12 I will destine you to the sword, and all of you shall bow down to the slaughter, because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke, you did not listen, but you did what was evil in my eyes and chose what I did not delight in.”
Those who are drawn "WILL come to me". Sounds like God never fails to me. Or does He?
But back to John 6. Nowhere does it say they hear and learn and then are drawn.
Missing the point
Those drawn are those who have heard and believed what they heard
All who hear do not come
In any case there is a previously established principles that ones previous response to God and his message determines their response to Christ
John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 5:37–40 (ESV) — 37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen, 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent. 39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
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The text says no such thing.
Provisionist presupposition.
Hearing and learning is the means, not the reason.
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