Even in John 1, Jesus is not God

[civic]

It certainly includes Gen 1:1, but it’s more than that. I like what MacLaren says about it, “The threefold utterance in John 1:1carries us into the depths of eternity, before time or creatures were. Genesis and John both start from ‘the beginning,’ but, while Genesis works downwards from that point and tells what followed, John works upwards and tells what preceded-if we may use that term in speaking of what lies beyond time.”

There is the sense of the reality of things in eternity past in John 1:1, it is not as pinpointed as Gen 1:1.

Doug

Excellent

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Well that last post you wrote to me was yesterday morning and I ignored it because this Syriac Aramaic Peshitta is controversial and clearly wrong.

It used various dialects in its formation. It is written in the Syriac alphabet and is transliterated into the Latin script.....do I have to rewrite that again? That is enough for me to run...

The Aramaic Peshitta says:
In the beginning was the Miltha, and that Miltha was with God, and God was that Miltha. This was in the Beginning with God. - John 1:1-2

And Miltha it said to be Jesus Christ. Even Trinitarians do not go that far as to actually insert and replace logos with Christ in the text.

So I ignored your argument altogether.

Miltha they also say means 'manifestation' or 'substance.' Go right ahead and believe this text. I will have no part in it.

You make such false statements. Utterly false. It boggles the mind how you think you can get away with writing such falsehoods. I have no idea where you are even getting your information from. Why don't you give sources for your statements?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

is not the Lord Jesus the NEW CREATION "CREATOR?" scripture, Revelation 21:5 "And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."
and it's the Lord Jesus who sits on the throne.

101G/

I have no idea what that spaghetti even means.

 

[GeneZ]

The Bible is explicit, that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Where did you go?
Are you hiding?

Here it is again...

The Bible is explicit, that God raised Jesus from the dead.

And, Jesus said that He would raise it up!

The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”​

But the temple he had spoken of was his body." John 2:18-21​

That makes Jesus "God" according to your very own claim..


I'm curious to see how you are going to try to spin that.............

.......

 

[Wrangler]

By definition, you cannot disprove truth!


Doug

Circular Reasoning.

The truth is the trinity is not in the Bible - not the word and not the concept. There simply is no verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it. The concept of the trinity is so important that in 66 books, it is not mentioned once!

The truth is every Biblical author with the possible exception of Luke were monotheist Jews who reject the trinity to this day.

The truth is Jesus was a unitarian, a Jew born under the law required to believe in the monotheist God of the OT.

The truth is Jesus did not teach the trinity.

The truth is that Jesus is the adopted son of God - as we all are.

The truth is that even in John 1, Jesus is not God. I found a great new translation, REV, Revised English Version.


1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and what God was the Word was.a

2This Word was in the beginning with God.

3Everything came to be through it, and apart from it nothing came to be.b

4What came to be in it was life. And this life was the light of humankind.

5And the light shines in the darkness, but the darkness did not overcome it.


12But to as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave the right to become children of God,

13who were not born by blood,c nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of a man, but by God.


14The Word became flesh and dwelledd among us, and we have seen his glory—the glory as the only begotten Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.



18No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in a most intimate relationship withf the Father, he has explained him.

 

[Wrangler]

And, Jesus said that He would raise it up!

Right. I said I would get my wife a 2nd cup of coffee. That does not mean I did. Would. Did. See the difference?

 

[Doug Brents]

This is not God’s name and you know it.

I didn't say it was His name. I said it was God. There is no doubt our debate that it was God speaking to Moses out of the bush. And God, from the bush, told Moses that He was the I AM! And Jesus claimed that title. Now, either He was a liar and blasphemer (and therefore a sinner), or He is God. If He is a sinner, then He cannot be our redeemer, because He would then need to be redeemed Himself. But if He is the redeemer, then He is not a liar, and not a blasphemer, but He really is God in the flesh.

 

[Rockson]

The truth is Jesus was a unitarian, a Jew born under the law required to believe in the monotheist God of the OT.

Jesus was not a unitarian. He was required to believe this,

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deut 6:4

And he could believe that but also believe and know there was another way in which God being one could be understood. More was to be added to the truth that God was one in a different way of thinking about ONE but not until the appointed time.

 

[civic]

Where did you go?
Are you hiding?

Here it is again...




And, Jesus said that He would raise it up!

The Jews then responded to him, “What sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?”​

​

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”​

​

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”​

But the temple he had spoken of was his body." John 2:18-21​

That makes Jesus "God" according to your very own claim..


I'm curious to see how you are going to try to spin that.............

.......

yes Jesus raised Himself from the dead as promised and we know that God raises the dead- hence the Son is God as scripture declares in many places by calling Him God and having the same names, titles, descriptions and attributes of God that no man could ever have unless that man just happened to be God. That is exactly who Jesus is- God manifest in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Rockson]

Right. I said I would get my wife a 2nd cup of coffee. That does not mean I did. Would. Did. See the difference?

Sorry Wrangler but you don't think that's a pretty weak way of reasoning? It would still mean you're declaring you have the ability to do it .

So when Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” if he didn't have the ability to do it he would say God the Father, and the Holy Spirit ...only they exclusively could do it. But he said I will do it. Raising Jesus from the dead was a Trinity action....done by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Gal 1:1, 1 Pt 3: 18, Jn 2:19

 

[Johann]

The one who became a man is self-existing. The language John uses in chapter 1 makes a distinction between the one eternally existing as the Word and his becoming at a point in time, a man. The Word already existed '...in the beginning', reflecting the words of Genesis 1:1 but the Word became human and lived a human life. Yet he claimed something which the religious leaders saw as blasphemy. In John 8:58 he used a phrase which is applied to God in Isaiah (אני הוא - Isaiah 43:13 et al) and is related to Exodus 3:14. 'I am' in this context was a claim to being eternal and only God is eternal. They certainly got his gist.

John 1:2 says that οὗτος (he) was in the beginning with God. Throughout John οὗτος is both personal and refers to a person. All things were created 'through him'. John states that he 'beheld' the glory of the λόγος in the person of Jesus. John's testimony of Jesus was that he existed before him, as the unique God who manifests the Father to the world.

The paradox is mind blowing. The eternal becomes temporal. The divine becomes a man - completely... but without ceasing to be self-existent. The immortal becomes mortal. The omniscient becomes limited. The omnipresent becomes focused in time and place. Yet God remains God. We see this throughout Tanakh. The one who fills all things and is present in all time is manifest in one place and time. The God who is one is sender and yet sent. ““This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)

“And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20) “οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν ἵνα γινώσκωμεν τὸν ἀληθινόν, καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.”
To be in the Son is to be in God. In fact he is the true God.

Problematic if you are not believing in the Triune Godhead.

The question not asked often enough, is why He was able to become as a man.

 

[Johann]

The question not asked often enough, is why He was able to become as a man.

 

[Johann]

The question not asked often enough, is why He was able to become as a man.

The book of John says it well-and the 2Aorist brother

 

[civic]

The question not asked often enough, is why He was able to become as a man.

What is your answer to that question ? Thanks !

 

[Johann]

Whoever the Word is , He was alongside God (with Him) and was God. But how can the Word be with God and also be God? Lets examine 1b The Word was with God. John here is making a distinction between the Word and God. The Word existed eternally with God, for the Word (logos) ‎was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros ‎with the accusative shows equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. This clearly reveals a relationship between the logos and theon in 1b. In (Moulton and Milligan Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament)"the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" is used to speak of the relationship between the logos and God.

was = was [already pre-existent]. Creation is not mentioned till Joh_1:3. "The Word had no beginning". See Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5. 1Jn_1:1. Eph_1:4. Pro_8:23. Psa_90:2. Compare Joh_8:58. Not the same "was "as in Joh_1:14.

Concurring with you.
J.

 

[civic]

was = was [already pre-existent]. Creation is not mentioned till Joh_1:3. "The Word had no beginning". See Joh_1:3; Joh_17:5. 1Jn_1:1. Eph_1:4. Pro_8:23. Psa_90:2. Compare Joh_8:58. Not the same "was "as in Joh_1:14.

Concurring with you.
J.

Yes John 1:1 predates creation when there was only God in existence

 

[Johann]

The book of John says it well-and the 2Aorist brother

Jesus became a man so that as our high priest, He could offer Himself for our sins and come to our aid when we are tempted.

He makes three points:

1. Jesus became a man, not an angel, because He came to save men (2:16).

The author is wrapping up his argument that he began in 2:5, that God put man on the earth to rule, and that the role of angels is “to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation” (1:14). The word “for” (2:16) relates to the previous two verses, about Jesus freeing us from the power and fear of death. There is debate about the meaning of the word translated, “give help.” It literally means, “to take hold of” (NASB, margin). It is used of Jesus taking hold of Peter when he was sinking after walking on the water (Matt.14:31; see also Mark

The early church fathers uniformly interpreted it to refer to Jesus’ taking hold of human nature in the incarnation (Philip Hughes, A Commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews [Eerdmans], p. 115). In this sense, the verse means, “Jesus did not take to Himself the nature of angels, but rather He took on the seed of Abraham,” that is, He became a Jew in fulfillment of God’s covenant promise to Abraham. About the 17th century, some commentators began to interpret the verse to mean that Jesus does not give help or assistance to angels, but rather to people. In this view, “the seed of Abraham” refers to those who are Abraham’s true children by faith in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:7).

The difference does not seem that great to me. The first view emphasizes the fact of the incarnation, whereas the second emphasizes its purpose. The extended context discusses both the fact and the purpose of the incarnation. Thus I understand the sense of the verse in context to be: “While the Messiah is God, and thus superior to the angels, He also had to become man so that He could suffer and die for our salvation. He did this in fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham, that through his seed, He would bless all peoples. So don’t look to any angelic Messiah, and don’t despise the fact that Jesus suffered and died. He had to do this to atone for our sins.”

Lesson 8: Why Jesus Became a Man (Hebrews 2:16-18) | Bible.org

Expository study of Hebrews: Jesus became a man so that as our high priest, He could offer Himself for our sins and come to our aid when we are tempted.

bible.org

 

[Johann]

Yes John 1:1 predates creation when there was only God in existence

Some advocate Messiah was a created being brother.

 

[civic]

Some advocate Messiah was a created being brother.

As a man Jesus was created. He is both created and uncreated. That’s the miracle of the Incarnation. God became man. The Eternal became temporal. The Timeless One came into our time and space as one of us.

 

[Johann]

As a man Jesus was created. He is both created and uncreated. That’s the miracle of the Incarnation. God became man.

Hence the 2 Aorist-He became something He was not before-a Man.

Job_5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:

Psa_145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

Pro_25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

Rom_11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph_3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Shalom
J.