Even in John 1, Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Wrangler
- Start date
101G
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
The truth as you see it, is what?
101G
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
Then why do you shroud it in what appears sinister and evil? Having no light?
"Abstain from all appearance of evil."
1 Thessalonians 5:22
101G
Well-known member
is that a personal opinion of yours. you know what 101G do with personal opinion ...... (smile).....
Yikes!101G.
101G
Well-known member
@GeneZ,
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
you have no clue what these scriptures are saying, do You? do you really understand the term "WITH?" in these scriptures.
101G.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:2 "The same was in the beginning with God." John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
you have no clue what these scriptures are saying, do You? do you really understand the term "WITH?" in these scriptures.
101G.
GeneZ
Well-known member
I most definitely have an idea what that speaks of.
But, I do not feel like wasting it on the likes of someone who can not think straight with Scripture.....
And, that is the truth.
I see you as a "gaslighting" apostate, who likes to crush what a believer cherishes before their eyes.
That you "take pleasure" in treating what is sacred as something to be tossed off...
You are allowed to exist by God. But only for testing growing believers who need testing as a means to grow.
As for me... I have dealt with your "unkind" for years and have learned to just avoid allowing you to get your foot in the door.
Other than that?
Wishing you a blessed day.
101G
Well-known member
so, you're a seer now? .... (smile)
anyone who doing any crushing here is the Lord Jesus .... Psalms 110:1 is in effect. you all don't even know what's going on do you? Oh my......
101G.
GeneZ
Well-known member
His unique soul (his humanity) was with God as the means to create all things.
All things His soul was used to create with, are things that our souls will be able to relate to.
Being uniquely God and soul in union places the Lord Jesus Christ in a unique position in the Trinity.
For he can also turn off his ability to be omniscient at will, as proven when He made Himself become as a man in Jesus..
That is how he created men with free will by means of his soul functioning outside of being omniscient. Problem solved!
He has always been Soul and Deity in union. But, not always with a human body.
That means?
Before the Incarnation where His soul took on human flesh? The Lord God of Israel was being a union of Soul and Deity as attested to in passages found in the Torah.
But, maybe I should spare you. You would not want to learn from someone who is your inferior mentally...
So be it.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You are welcome to believe that Jesus is not God, but do not cry to me when He denies you at Judgement. There is only ONE God, and He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all united as ONE. I do not understand how it works, any more than a dot can comprehend a cube, but I do know it is fact.
And the insulting, condescending manner of your speech does not become a person claiming to be a follower of Jesus (whether you believe He is God or not).
Johann
Well-known member
Well said brother-with the advent of Google anyone with a bias will discredit that Messiah IS God.
1Ti 3:16 AndG2532 Conj Kai Καὶ confessedly,G3672 Adv homologoumenōs, ὁμολογουμένως, greatG3173 Adj-NNS mega μέγα isG1510 V-PIA-3S estin ἐστὶν theG3588 Art-NNS to τὸ -G3588 Art-GFS tēs τῆς of godlinessG2150 N-GFS eusebeias εὐσεβείας mystery:G3466 N-NNS mystērion· μυστήριον· WhoG3739 RelPro-NMS Hos Ὃς was revealedG5319 G5681 V-AIP-3S ephanerōthē ἐφανερώθη N1 inG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] flesh,G4561 N-DFS sarki, σαρκί, was justifiedG1344 G5681 V-AIP-3S edikaiōthē ἐδικαιώθη inG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] Spirit,G4151 N-DNS pneumati, πνεύματι, N2 was seenG3708 V-AIP-3S ōphthē ὤφθη by angels,G32 N-DMP angelois, ἀγγέλοις, was proclaimedG2784 G5681 V-AIP-3S ekērychthē ἐκηρύχθη amongG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] nations,G1484 N-DNP ethnesin, ἔθνεσιν, was believed onG4100 G5681 V-AIP-3S episteuthē ἐπιστεύθη inG1722 Prep en ἐν [the] world,G2889 N-DMS kosmō, κόσμῳ, was taken upG353 G5681 V-AIP-3S anelēmphthē ἀνελήμφθη inG1722 Prep en ἐν glory.G1391 N-DFS doxē. δόξῃ.
As to the construction of these clauses, there would be no difficulty with the reading Θεός. If Ὅ be read, it must relate to ΜΥΣΤΉΡΙΟΝ, which also might be the construction with Ὅς.
According to the Vulgate (sacramentum quod manifestatum est), the latter is the construction adopted by the Latin Fathers who understood Christ to be the ΜΥΣΤΉΡΙΟΝ,[144]—an interpretation quite unjustifiable and unsuitable to the general train of thought.
Several expositors (Mangold, Hofmann, and others) assume the first clause: ὃς … σαρκί, to be the subject, and the other five clauses to form the predicate; but “on account of the parallelism, that is not advisable” (Winer, p. 519 [E. T. p. 736]).
It is much more natural from their similar form to regard all six clauses as co-ordinate. Then the subject to which ὅς relates is not named; but, according to the purport of the various clauses, it can be none other than Christ.
This curious omission may be thus accounted for; the sentence has been taken from a formula of confession, or better, from an old Christian hymn, as its metrical and euphonious character seems to indicate; comp. Rambach’s Anthologie christl. Gesänge aus allen Jahrh. d. Kirche, I. 33, and Winer, p. 547 [E. T. p. 797]. This view is also adopted by Heydenreich, Mack, de Wette, Wiesinger, van Oosterzee, Plitt.
The opinion of Matthies is untenable, that the apostle does not name Christ expressly, in order to maintain the character of τὸ μυστήριον (in the sense: Acknowledged great, etc., … he who is revealed, etc.), and that this absolute use of the relative pronoun is found elsewhere in the N. T.
In the passages quoted by him, Rom_2:23, 1Co_7:37, Joh_1:46; Joh_3:34, 1Jn_1:3, the pronoun has not the absolute meaning alleged by him. The first clause runs: ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί] ἐφανερώθη is often used of Christ’s appearance on earth, of His becoming man, 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_3:5; it presupposes a previous concealment,[145] and consequently the pre-existence of Christ as the eternal Logos.
Ἐν σαρκί] (comp. 1Jn_4:2 : ἐληλυθὼς ἐν σαρκί; Rom_8:3 : ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας) denotes the human nature in which Christ appeared; Joh_1:14 : ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο.
With this first clause the second stands in contrast: ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι] means (as in Mat_11:19; Luk_7:35): to be shown to be such a one as He is in nature; here, therefore, the sense is:
He was shown in His divine glory (as the Logos or eternal Son of God), which was veiled by the σάρξ. Ἐν πνεύματι is contrasted with ἐν σαρκί, the latter denoting the earthly, human manner of His appearing, the former the inner principle which formed the basis of His life.
Though ἐν with πνεύματι has not entirely lost its proper meaning, yet it shades off into the idea of the means used, in so far as the spirit revealed in Him was the means of showing His true nature.[146] It would be wrong to separate here the ΠΝΕῦΜΑ from His person, and to understand by it the spirit proceeding from Him and imparted to His own; it is rather the living spiritual principle dwelling in Him and working out from Him (so, too, Plitt).
Chrysostom diverges from this exposition, and explains ἘΔΙΚΑΙΏΘΗ by: ΔΌΛΟΝ ΟὐΚ ἘΠΟΊΗΣΕΝ, ὍΠΕΡ Ὁ ΠΡΟΦΉΤΗς ΛΈΓΕΙ· Ὃς ἉΜΑΡΤΊΑΝ ΟὐΚ ἘΠΟΊΗΣΕ; and Bengel takes the meaning of the expression to be that Christ bore the sins of the world (peccata peccatorum tulit … et justitiam aeternam sibi suisque asseruit);
---but both views import ideas which are here out of place. The expression ἘΝ ΠΝΕΎΜΑΤΙ has also found very varying interpretations. Instead of ΠΝΕῦΜΑ being taken in its real sense, particular elements of it in the life of Christ, or particular modes of revealing the ΠΝΕῦΜΑ, have been fixed upon, or ΠΝΕῦΜΑ has been taken simply of the divine nature of Christ.[147]
ὬΦΘΗ ἈΓΓΈΛΟΙς] The right meaning of this third clause also can only be got from a faithful consideration of the words. The word ὬΦΘΗ is in the N. T. frequently joined with the dative, Mat_17:3; Luk_1:11; Act_7:2; 1Co_15:5-8; Heb_9:28, etc. In all these passages it is not the simple “was seen,” but “was revealed” or “appeared;” it always presupposes the activity of the thing seen.
From the analogy of these passages, we must think here of Christ going to those to whom He became visible, so that all explanations which take ὬΦΘΗ merely as “was seen” are to be rejected.
(2.) What is the mystery of godliness?
It is Christ; and here are six things concerning Christ, which make up the mystery of godliness.
[1.] That he is God manifest in the flesh: God was manifest in the flesh. This proves that he is God, the eternal Word, that was made flesh and was manifest in the flesh.
When God was to be manifested to man he was pleased to manifest himself in the incarnation of his own Son: The Word was made flesh, Joh_1:14. [2.] He is justified in the Spirit. Whereas he was reproached as a sinner, and put to death as a malefactor, he was raised again by the Spirit, and so was justified from all the calumnies with which he was loaded. He was made sin for us, and was delivered for our offences; but, being raised again, he was justified in the Spirit; that is, it was made to appear that his sacrifice was accepted, and so he rose again for our justification, as he was delivered for our offences, Rom_4:25. He was put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, 1Pe_3:18. [3.] He was seen of angels.
They worshipped him (Heb_1:6); they attended his incarnation, his temptation, his agony, his death, his resurrection, his ascension; this is much to his honour, and shows what a mighty interest he had in the upper world, that angels ministered to him, for he is the Lord of angels. [4.] He is preached unto the Gentiles. This is a great part of the mystery of godliness, that Christ was offered to the Gentiles a Redeemer and Saviour; that whereas, before, salvation was of the Jews, the partition-wall was now taken down, and the Gentiles were taken in. I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, Act_13:47. [5.] That he was believed on in the world, so that he was not preached in vain. Many of the Gentiles welcomed the gospel which the Jews rejected. Who would have thought that the world, which lay in wickedness, would believe in the Son of God, would take him to be their Saviour who was himself crucified at Jerusalem? But, notwithstanding all the prejudices they laboured under, he was believed on, etc. [6.]
He was received up into glory, in his ascension. This indeed was before he was believed on in the world; but it is put last, because it was the crown of his exaltation, and because it is not only his ascension that is meant, but his sitting at the right hand of God, where he ever lives, making intercession, and has all power, both in heaven and earth, and because, in the apostasy of which he treats in the following chapter, his remaining in heaven would be denied by those who pretend to bring him down on their altars in the consecrated wafers.
Observe, First, He who was manifest in flesh was God, really and truly God, God by nature, and not only so by office, for this makes it to be a mystery.
Secondly, God was manifest in flesh, real flesh. Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same, Heb_2:14. And, what is more amazing, he was manifest in the flesh after all flesh had corrupted his way, though he himself was holy from the womb.
Thirdly, Godliness is a mystery in all its parts and branches, from the beginning to the end, from Christ's incarnation to his ascension. Fourthly, It being a great mystery, we should rather humbly adore it, and piously believe it, than curiously pry into it, or be too positive in our explications of it and determinations about it, further than the holy scriptures have revealed it to us.
MH.
Shalom and Amen.
Johann.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Adoni and Adonai are a great discussion topic, but they are Hebrew words, and the NT which deals most directly with Jesus' divinity was written in Greek. So the distinction you are making here is neither helpful nor accurate in dealing with Jesus.
Inferences about Jesus' nature and origin must not contradict direct statements about who and what He is. Jesus is Lord (Adoni) because He was a man, but He is also LORD (Adonai) because He was and is God. There is only one eternal (having no beginning and no end), God. And Jesus has no beginning and no end (Col 1:15), which makes Him part of that one being. The word that Paul did use (prototokos) had two connotations: priority and sovereignty. Priority had two possible sub-connotations: the first part of something or existence before something. The context of the word determines which sub-connotation is intended. The Colossians 1 context demands the sub-connotation of existence before something (vv. 16–17). Thus, when Paul referred to Christ as “the first-born of all creation,” he was teaching that Christ existed before and is sovereign over all of creation.
It's great to hear from you. I hope all is well with you and your family.
Johann
Well-known member
Not your words-not your study-
Five Lessons explaining the usage/grammar of John for John 1:1c.
We will get to them in a later lesson. How about concentrating on lesson A? But they're immediately relevant. This is the problem with examining each issue in isolation. "the Word was with God, and the Word was god-like" I would say the more nuanced translation is "the Word was divine." Most...
www.religiousforums.com
You have already been refuted.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
With Jesus and the Holy Spirit all is good.
J.
Wrangler
Well-known member
And there it is! The final desperate gasp of a lost argument. Appeal to Threat.
Again, I ask why do you teach what Jesus did not? Why does it not bother you that Jesus did not teach the trinity?* Of the many things wrong with the trinity, that it obviously violates the 1C, is top of the list. You call yourselves monotheists in theory but in practice, you obviously subscribe to 3 gods.
I find it funny how no one can answer how can anything be WITH someone and BE that same someone. The trinity is anti-Scriptural.
* something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.
APAK
Active member
You are writing nonsense here ..: "Adoni and Adonai are a great discussion topic.." What! I just answered your post and now this subject YOU raised in the first place is now just great discussion topic. You just deflected and moved to something else entirely because you have no answer for it.
-------------------------------------------
This was your post:
"Yet there is only ONE Lord, Is Jesus Lord? or is the Father Lord? Which is it?
They are one and the same. Father = Lord. Jesus = Lord. Holy Spirit = Lord. For they are ALL the same God."
----------------------------------------------
"Inferences about Jesus' nature and origin must not contradict direct statements about who and what He is."
and "...but He is also LORD (Adonai) because He was and is God...." What!!
I just showed you hard evidence in how the usage of lord, Lord and LORD is derived in scripture and you still ignore it as irrelevant. It's is right on point. And then you continue to ramble on and throw chaff out to avoid any other ensuing serious discussion. You are not serious and interested in this topic and its truth at all.
.
APAK
Active member
Undeniably true. Deflections, distractions and intellectual dishonesty is all they have to combat this truth. It never ends.
Ask a trinitarian to do even a short commentary without throwing out lists of disconnected single verses, and they run. They cannot do commentaries and explain subjects in context. They operate at the one verse level only and because they see the context and the commentary already built into this one verse, and understood by them as self-evident in their simple and usually incorrect understanding.
Johann
Well-known member
4. THE DIVINE NAMES AND TITLES.
I. Elohim occurs 2.700 times. Its first occurrence connects it with creation , and give it its essential meaning as the Creator . It indicates His relation to mankind as His creatures (see note on 2Ch_18:31, where it stands in contrast with Jehovah as indicating covenant relationship ). 'Elohim is God the Son, the living "WORD" with creature form to create (Joh_1:1. Col_1:15-17. Rev_3:14); and later, with human form to redeem (Joh_1:14). "Begotten of His Father before all worlds; born of His mother, in the world." In this creature form He appeared to the Patriarchs, a form not temporarily assumed. 'Elohim is indicated (as in A.V.) by ordinary small type, "God". See table on page 7.
II. Jehovah . While Elohim is God as the Creator of all things, Jehovah is the same God in covenant relation to those whom He has created (Cp. 2Ch_18:31). Jehovah means the Eternal , the Immutable One, He Who WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME. The Divine definition is given in Gen_21:33. He is especially, therefore, the God of Israel; and the God of those who are redeemed, and are thus now "in Christ". We can say "My God," but not "My Jehovah", for Jehovah is "MY God."
Jehovah is indicated (as in A.V.) by small capital letters, "LORD"' and by "GOD" when it occurs in combination with Adonai, in which case LORD GOD = Adonai Jehovah. The name Jehovah is combined with ten other words, which form what are known as "the Jehovah Titles." in the Hebrew Canon (Ap. 1). All are noted in the margin, in all their occurrences:--
1. JEHOVAH-JIREH = Jehovah will see, or provide. Gen_22:14.
2. JEHOVAH-ROPHEKA = Jehovah that healeth thee. Exo_15:26.
3. JEHOVAH-NISSI = Jehovah my banner. Exo_17:15.
4. JEHOVAH-MeKADDISHKEM = Jehovah that doth sanctify you. Exo_31:13. Lev_20:8; Lev_21:8; Lev_22:32. Eze_20:12.
5. JEHOVAH-SHALOM = Jehovah [send] peace. Jdg_6:24.
6. JEHOVAH-ZeBA'OTH = Jehovah of hosts. 1Sa_1:3, and frequently.
7. JEHOVAH-ZIDKENU = Jehovah our righteousness. Jer_23:6; Jer_33:16.
8. JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH = Jehovah is there. Eze_48:35.
9. JEHOVAH-ELYON = Jehovah most high. Psa_7:17; Psa_47:2; Psa_97:9.
10. JEHOVAH-RO'I = Jehovah my Shepherd. Psa_23:1.
We have seven of these, experimentally referred to, in Ps. 23, inasmuch as Jehovah, the "Good," "Great," and "Chief Shepherd," is engaged, in all the perfection of His attributes, on behalf of His sheep:--
In verse 1, we have No. 1 above.
In verse 2, we have No. 5.
In verse 3, we have Nos. 2 and 7.
In verse 4, we have No. 8.
In verse 5, we have Nos. 3 and 4.
III. Jah is Jehovah in a special sense and relation. Jehovah as having BECOME our Salvation (first occ. Exo_15:2), He Who IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It occurs 49 times (7 x 7. See Ap. 10). Compare Psa_68:4; Psa_68:18.
IV. EL is essentially the Almighty , thought the word is never so rendered (see below, "Shaddai"). EL is Elohim in all His strength and power. It is rendered "God" as Elohim is, but El is God the Omnipotent. Elohim is God the Creator putting His omnipotence into operation. Eloah (see below) is God Who wills and orders all, and Who is to be the one object of the worship of His people. El is the God Who knows all (first occ. Gen_14:18-22) and sees all (Gen_16:13) and that performeth all things for His people (Psa_57:2); and in Whom all the Divine attributes are concentrated.
El is indicated in this edition by type in large capital letters, thus: "GOD." It is sometimes transliterated in proper names Immanue- 'el , Beth- 'el , &c., where it is translated, as explained in the margin.
V. Eloah is Elohim, Who is to be worshipped. Eloah is God in connection with His Will rather than His power. The first occurrence associates this name with worship (Deu_32:15-17). Hence it is the title used whenever the contrast (latent or expressed) is with false gods or idols. Eloah is essentially "the living God" in contrast to inanimate idols. Eloah is rendered "God", but we have indicated it by type thus: GOD.
VI. Elyon first occurs in Gen_14:18 with El , and is rendered "the most high (God)". It is El and Elohim, not as the powerful Creator, but as "the possessor of heaven and earth." Hence the name is associated with Christ as the Son of "the Highest" (Luk_1:35). It is Elyon, as possessor of the earth, Who divides the nations "their inheritance". In Psa_83:18, He is "over all the earth". The title occurs 36 times (6 x 6 or 62 See Ap. 10).
Elyon is the Dispenser of God's blessings in the earth; the blessings proceeding from a Priest Who is a King upon His throne (cp. Gen_14:18-22 with Zec_6:13; Zec_14:9).
VII. Shaddai is in every instance translated "Almighty", and is indicated by small capital letters ("ALMIGHTY"). It is God ( El ), not as the source of strength, but of grace ; not as Creator, but as the Giver . Shaddai is the All-bountiful. This title does not refer to His creative power, but to His power to supply all the needs of His people. Its first occurrence is in Gen_17:1, and is used to show Abraham that He Who called him out to walk alone before Him could supply all his need. Even so it is the title used in 2Co_6:18, where we are cal 1000 led to "come out" in separation from the world. It is always used in connection with El (see above).
VIII. Adon is one of the three titles (ADON, ADONAI, and ADONIM), all generally rendered "Lord"; but each has its own peculiar usage and association. They all denote headship in various aspects. They have to do with God as "over-lord."
1. Adon is the Lord as Ruler in the earth. We have indicated this in type by printing the preceding article or pronouns in small capitals, not because either are to be emphasized, but to distinguish the word "Lord" from Adonai , which is always so printed in the A.V.
2. Adonai is the Lord in His relation to the earth; and as carrying out His purposes of blessing in the earth. With this limitation it is almost equivalent to Jehovah. Indeed, it was from an early date so used, by associating the vowel points of the word Jehovah with Adon , thus converting Adon into Adonai . A list of 134 passages where this was deliberately done is preserved and given in the Massorah (107-115). We have indicated these by printing the word like Jehovah, putting an asterisk, thus: LORD*.
3. Adonim is the plural of Adon , never used of man. Adonim carries with it all that Adon does, but in a greater and higher degree; and more especially as owner and proprietor . An Adon may rule others who do not belong to him. Hence (without the article) it is often used of men. But Adonim is the Lord Who rules His own. We have indicated it by type, thus: LORD.
The three may be thus briefly distinguished:--
Adon is the Lord as overlord or ruler .
Adonim is the Lord as owner .
Adonai is the Lord as blesser .
IX. The Types used to indicate the above titles, in the text, are as follows:--
· God = Elohim .
· GOD = Jehovah (in combination with Adonai , "Lord").
· GOD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Elohim as the Printed Text.
· GOD = El.
· GOD = Eloah .
· LORD = Jehovah .
· THE LORD = Jah .
· LORD* = Jehovah in the Primitive Texts, altered by Sopherim to Adonai as in the Printed Text.
· Lord = Adonai.
· LORD = Adonim .
· ALMIGHTY = Shaddai .
· MOST HIGH = Elyon .
The Combinations are indicated as follows:--
Adonai Jehovah = Lord GOD.
Jehovah Elohim = LORD God.
Elyon El = MOST HIGH GOD.
El Shaddai = GOD ALMIGHTY.
Bullinger.
Similar threads
