Seabass
Active member
God has never made salvation completely UNconditional therefore man cannot undo what God never did.
Salvation has always been completely conditional upon a ongoing, sustained obedient faith to God's will.
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ahar
- Start date
Salvation has always been completely conditional upon a ongoing, sustained obedient faith to God's will.
Seabass
Active member
This would be the logical implication and truth if salvation were completely UNconditional. If man must live a certain way to be saved, then that is a CONDITION that must be met in order to be saved.
If salvation were completely UNconditional, then the following statement made by proponents of eternal security would be 100% true:
Sam Morris, a Baptist preacher in Stamford, Texas wrote a little tract explaining that all the sins one may commit cannot harm the soul or cause the person to be lost. Look at the quote: “We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... All the prayers a man may pray, all the Bibles he may read, all the churches he may belong to, all the services he may attend, all the sermons he may practice, all the debts he may pay, all the ordinances he may observe, all the laws he may keep, all the benevolent acts he may per-form will not make his soul one whit safer; and all the sins he may commit from idolatry to murder will not make his soul in any more danger... The way a man lives has nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his soul... The way I live has nothing whatsoever to do with the salvation of my soul" [Do a Christian’s Sins Damn His Soul?].
Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville, KY commented: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women, I couldn't go to hell -- in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to. If on the judgment day, I should find that my loved ones are lost and should lose all desire to be saved, and should beg God to send me to hell with them, He couldn't do it" (The Weekly Worker, March 12, 1959).
“All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the State of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the cause of Christ, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation” [V. God’s Power of Grace—from a statement adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention May 9, 1963].***
*** note this last statement that was adopted by the SBC contradicts itself. The Bible does NOT teach that the Christian is kept by God "UNconditionally" but does teach (1 Pet 1:5) the Christian is kept by God THROUGH FAITH (a CONDITION). Having and maintain faith is therefore a CONDITION that must be met to be saved. Therefore the Christian cannot fall from faith, fall into sin yet be UNconditionally saved apart from faith anyway.
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Behold
Well-known member
To become a Christian, is to be born again, by the Holy Spirit, into "God is A Spirit", by the Holy Spirit.
That is a spiritual Birth, that is God caused and God maintained.
Philippians 1:6
This can't be undone later, by "behavior issues" or "i think i lost my faith".
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, I believe the initial faith and the ongoing faith are two
separate and distinct conditions as prescribed in the following:
God's Operation On All His new-born babes In Christ
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance
ps. The Three Tenses Of God's Eternal Salvation
↓ ↓ explained ↓ ↓
Seabass
Active member
Hi,
There is "one faith" (Eph 4:5) and one must have and maintain that one faith all their life in order to be saved They must grow in that faith or they can fall away (Heb 5:12-14 - Heb 6:1-6). Faith gives one access to grace (Rom 5:2) and if one casts aside his/her faith (Heb 4:11; 1 Tim 4:1) they no longer have access to grace.
Azriel
Well-known member
No he didn't God did.
Grace ambassador
Well-known member
Precious friend, respectfully disagree, because, at the 'moment' of faith,
God's Operation Is Performed on all new-born babes In Christ!
God's Infinite 'Maintenance' Of / "Finishing our faith!" (Hebrews 12:2):
Of course, These Characteristics Of An Infinite God's Eternal Relationship
He Makes With us are Unalterable / Unchangeable by finite men. Amen?
Our maintenance of good/bad works:
What is alterable / changeable is our fellowship we should all desire to have with Him! The
performance or non-performance of that ↑ ↓ is what determines rewards / loss thereof
At The Judgment Seat Of Christ! 1 Corinthians 3:8-15). Amen?
Three Tenses Of God's Eternal Salvation are
↓ ↓ found here ↓ ↓
Azriel
Well-known member
Seems like this thread has finally got around to "works-salvation". That we have to do something to earn our salvation and we have to keep on doing good works to maintain our salvation. I think of it as man and his ego that just has to help God out in the salvation process. That God's unable to do it on his own. Man just Has to have his hand in there somehow, someway.
I guess just accepting the free gift of salvation would be too easy. Let's jump through some hoops make sure we earn it, that we are worthy.
Reminds me of Mormonism as they multiply requirements for salvation and advocate some form of works-salvation. The impossibility of works-salvation, self-righteousness, or any other kind of contribution to the act of regeneration is plainly taught in the Bible
The Bible tells us to beware of evil workers. The “evil workers” were those who wormed their way into the congregation and taught a form of teaching other than the gospel. They were aggressive in disseminating their works-salvation; they were working for their own redemption and teaching that it must be so for everyone.
In 2 Corinthians 11:13, Paul called these same intruders “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ”.
I guess just accepting the free gift of salvation would be too easy. Let's jump through some hoops make sure we earn it, that we are worthy.
Reminds me of Mormonism as they multiply requirements for salvation and advocate some form of works-salvation. The impossibility of works-salvation, self-righteousness, or any other kind of contribution to the act of regeneration is plainly taught in the Bible
The Bible tells us to beware of evil workers. The “evil workers” were those who wormed their way into the congregation and taught a form of teaching other than the gospel. They were aggressive in disseminating their works-salvation; they were working for their own redemption and teaching that it must be so for everyone.
In 2 Corinthians 11:13, Paul called these same intruders “false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ”.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Did God need man's help to knock the walls of Jericho down?
No.
Did God require that the entire nation march around the city in a certain way before He knocked the wall down?
YES!!!
And there are a hundred other examples similar to this all through the OT. God does not NEED man to do anything for Him to do His will. But He does invite us in to participate in His doing of things, and He does require us to do certain things before His blessing is received.
Did the woman cause the oil to continue to flow into all the jars she had collected?
No.
Did the oil stop flowing at exactly the point when all of the jars she had collected were completely filled?
Yes!!!
Seabass
Active member
God operates on men through His word...Faith come by hearing, hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17). God therefore does not determine for men which men will have faith and which men will not have faith. (also Rom 10:9 believing in the heart is a matter of man's will not something forced upon some men randomlly by God)
Heb 12:2 KJV "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."
The word "our" is in italics because it was added by translators. The Greek reads Christ is Author and Finisher of THE FAITH. The faith refers to the system of faith that is taught in the NT, the one faith.
civic
Well-known member
good points about mans free will to believe.
Seabass
Active member
Man of his own free choice chooses to believe therefore man can use that same volition to choose to abandon his belief. Hence the verb 'believe is present tense (as Jn 3:16) in many places showing man must not only believe now but must also have an ongoing, sustained belief for life.
civic
Well-known member
I have in the past been on both sides of the fence. On your side for the same reason you have just mentioned but in addition to that all the warning passages in the N.T. make sense only if they are including believers. There is no need to warn unbelievers about losing something they don't already possess- salvation. That is the number one reason I leaned your way.
hope this helps !!!
Rapture Bound
Active member
You stated, "That is the number one reason I leaned your way"
Do you still lean towards the loss of salvation position? ... and if not, then why not? How do you explain the warning passages?
civic
Well-known member
First and foremost is the numerous promises of eternal life from Jesus and the Apostles. It’s not called temporal or conditional life. Eternal life by definition means it never ends.
Rapture Bound
Active member
Who do you believe the warning passages were addressed to?
civic
Well-known member
Just so you know both sides of the issue make good arguments.
Saying that if we examine the many parables we see not all souls are saved, there are wheat and tares together and many with lamps full and lamps empty. Also many will say lord lord and Jesus says I never knew you. These people are in the church mixed in with believers.
Belief one way or the other does not change the salvation of the person that adheres to one side or the other. That’s my opinion fwiw
Rapture Bound
Active member
"Just so you know both sides of the issue make good arguments."
Agreed, ... but one of those sides only seemingly makes a "good argument" - since only one side can possibly be right. Can those on both sides of the issue actually even agree that ... one of these positions are absolutely wrong?? There can only be one correct answer here ... there is no middle ground.
I grow weary of those professing Christians who tell me that nobody can know the answer ... since there are those on both sides of the issue. Do some of these people actually suppose that God is playing some type of game here? ... trying to "hide" the answer from us ... when the reality is that it is certainly not the case.
Others that I've met say, "oh, it really isn't that important of an issue... don't sweat it man ... ... so very, very sad indeed.
civic
Well-known member
Correct one side is wrong.
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