Handaan
Active member
Everyone that ever was saved were living in disobedience until they believed.
Eternal Security
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Handaan
Active member
You totally miss the point. The dog house was a free gift same as salvation. you don't work for it. Jesus did the work. The condition is you believe who Jesus said he is and he did what he said he was going to do.
And your proof text again you missed the point. it's talking about unbelievers that refuse to believe and accept the gospel. They don't need any conditions as they don't believe.
To deal out retribution (chastisement and vengeance) upon those who do not know or perceive or become acquainted with God, and [upon those] who ignore and refuse to obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Th 1:8.
Keywords in that verse "those who do not know or perceive" It means they don't believe and they don't want to believe because they don't want to be acquainted with God they want to be their own god.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
What is this "works salvation" people are so enamored of condemning? There is no such thing in Scripture. Jesus' death completely paid the price for our sin, and allowed us to be reconciled to Him. There is no "earning" salvation, as if we could every be good enough for God to "have to" forgive us. He died for us while we were still sinners, and enemies, and dead in our sin. So there is no way that anything we do could ever bring us out of that.
However, we do not receive the accounting of righteousness without meeting the qualifications that He set out for receiving salvation from Him. Just as the Israelites had to march around the city of Jericho so many times in so many days in silence, and then so many times on the last day and then sound the trumpets, and shout. Those things did not cause the walls to fall: God did. But without those actions, the walls would not have fallen. Similarly, when Naaman went to the prophet and asked for healing, he was told to dip in Jordan seven times. The water of Jordan did not cleanse him. The act of dipping did not cleanse him. The power of God cleansed him. But if he had not dipped, then he would not have been cleansed. As James says, the actions work with the belief to make the belief complete/perfect/alive. Without the action there isn't really any belief.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This is true. But if you make the dog house and then tell me that it is mine, but I need to come get it from your house and take it to my house. If I don't come get it, my dog cannot use it. It is useless to me if I have not met the condition you placed on my receiving it.
Handaan
Active member
Your reply has nothing to do with my post. I didn't tell you it was yours I didn't tell you you had to come and pick it up. I didn't place any restriction on you for receiving it.
Handaan
Active member
Exactly.
It's the "However" that leads to a different gospel.
We do good works because we are saved not to get saved or to stay saved. Some people misunderstand passages like James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” Taken in the context of the entire passage (James 2:14–26), it becomes evident that James is not saying our works make us righteous before God; instead, he is making it clear that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or “dead” faith and is not saved. James is making a contrast between two different types of faith—truth faith that saves and false faith that is dead.
Works salvation has been explained in this thread and one more time won't hurt.
Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org
Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?
www.gotquestions.org
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I know you didn't, in your analogy, place any conditions upon receiving your gift.
But God did! God did place conditions for receiving His gift of salvation. That is the point.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, there are many works that "flow from" having been saved. There are many things, like love, that show that we are Christ followers.
But there are also a few things that Scripture says "lead to" receiving salvation, not "flow from" it. Those things are mentioned in Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and other places. There is a HUGE difference between works that flow out of having been saved (peace, patience, temperance, etc.) and repentance, confession of Jesus' name as Lord, and baptism.
So when must this "saving faith" be manifest? Before? or After? salvation is received?
Eph 2:8-9 says that saving faith must be manifest BEFORE salvation is received, because it is the conduit through which salvation is brought to us from God.
Handaan
Active member
That's the point of works salvation. It's a gift a gift doesn't have conditions.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, it can. Naaman was given the gift of cleansing, but if he didn't dip in Jordan 7 times, he would not have been cleansed. Israel was given the gift of "The Land", but they had to conquer it to take possession of it. The walls of Jericho fell, but they had to march around it first. The list goes on and on. There is no blessing without conditions. Even a birthday gift has to be unwrapped and opened to be used.
Handaan
Active member
THE SPIRIT of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed and qualified me to preach the Gospel of good tidings to the meek, the poor, and afflicted; He has sent me to bind up and heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the [physical and spiritual] captives and the opening of the prison and of the eyes to those who are bound,
Is 61:1.
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom and curing all kinds of disease and every weakness and infirmity.
36 When He saw the throngs, He was moved with pity and sympathy for them, because they were bewildered (harassed and distressed and dejected and helpless), like sheep without a shepherd.
Mt 9:35–36.
Which leads us to:
16 But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us? [Isa. 53:1.]
17 So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).
Ro 10:16–17.
According to works salvation faith by hearing is a work done by our ears like believing is a work done by our brain cells.
Bronson
Active member
There is no escaping the fact that I am solidly, energetically, and passionately committed to the view that when a man or woman is born again by the Spirit of God and justified by faith in Jesus Christ alone, he or she will persevere in faith unto life’s end, even though that perseverance may be a bit bumpy and inconsistent along the way. That person, however, will never utterly abandon Christ because the Father has promised never to utterly abandon us but to keep us safe and secure through faith.
Eleazar
Member
Then there is the Parable of the Prodigal Son and it’s meaning. It’s a story of reconciliation and restoration—the heart of the good news.
The main message of The Prodigal Son is that it doesn’t matter how far we stray from our Heavenly Father or how much we squander the gifts he provides (Salvation), he is always delighted when we turn back to him. His unconditional love is waiting for us to return home where he greets us with open arms. Every lost child (a sinner, meaning all of us) who is found (turns to God) is cause for the greatest celebration.
Reading from a historical context, we understand that the father’s response to his son’s remorse is also extraordinary. Jewish culture of the day would call for the son must earn his way back after shaming the family. Instead, the father offers him unconditional forgiveness.
So bottom line is if you’re the prodigal son, which we all are at some point due to our sin, be grateful for the unconditional love and forgiveness that will greet you when you come back home. Make a concerted effort to curb further disobedience or disrespect.
The main message of The Prodigal Son is that it doesn’t matter how far we stray from our Heavenly Father or how much we squander the gifts he provides (Salvation), he is always delighted when we turn back to him. His unconditional love is waiting for us to return home where he greets us with open arms. Every lost child (a sinner, meaning all of us) who is found (turns to God) is cause for the greatest celebration.
Reading from a historical context, we understand that the father’s response to his son’s remorse is also extraordinary. Jewish culture of the day would call for the son must earn his way back after shaming the family. Instead, the father offers him unconditional forgiveness.
So bottom line is if you’re the prodigal son, which we all are at some point due to our sin, be grateful for the unconditional love and forgiveness that will greet you when you come back home. Make a concerted effort to curb further disobedience or disrespect.
Seabass
Active member
Your statement here shows that belief is obedience.
Seabass
Active member
Do you understand that free gifts can have conditions and meeting the conditions does not earn the free gift?
God did not owe Noah anything, it was by God's graciousness that Noah and his family be saved from the flood but God's gracious free gift came with the condition Noah build an ark to the specs God gave. Noah could not, would not be saved from the flood unless he built the ark to God's specs. This enormous obedient work Noah undertook did not in anyway earn him salvation from the flood nor put God in a position where God owed him anything.
There is NO example anywhere in the Bible where one's obedience to God's will is said to be a work of merit. Obedience to God's will and works or merit and two completely, totally different things.
If salvation were completely UNconditional then everyone would UNconditionally, universally be saved.
=================
2 Thess 1:8 shows that OBEDIENCE is neecssary to being saved/not being in flaming fire. Belief only is not obedience to the gospel.
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Burdock
Member
The idea that regeneration precedes faith calls into question the purpose of the gospel proclamation. At best the gospel becomes merely the means, the triggering mechanism, and at worst the gospel is made superfluous.
Why? I'm glad that you asked. Because if regeneration is effected by God’s Spirit upon a spiritually dead, passive person who, in his pre-regeneration state, cannot respond to the gospel. And that only after they have been regenerated, made alive, born again, can anyone even begin to respond to the gospel.
If that were true, the power of the gospel itself to effect salvation is nullified and what Paul proclaims in Romans 1:16...that he is “not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes” is evacuated of meaning.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Faith that is passive (simple intellectual assent) is not really faith. Belief that does not obey is not really belief. If you hear the Word and "say" you believe it but do not obey it, then you don't really believe it. Read John 3:36, "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Notice that "believe" in the first half of the verse is contrasted with "Obey" in the second half. You can say you believe all day long, but until you obey the one you call Lord, He really isn't your Lord, and you don't really believe.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I did not says that regeneration precedes faith. Just the opposite: Faith precedes regeneration!
Faith is the conduit through which the gift of salvation is transmitted to us.
In time order:
Hear
Believe (faith which requires obedient action)
Salvation received
Live life in imitation of Christ and endure to the end.
Seabass
Active member
Lk 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Matt 7:21,24,26
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Jn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Matt 7:21,24,26
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Jn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Handaan
Active member
That's a real stretch. Your beliefs are your beliefs don't add me to the equation. How many times are we going to go through the definition of belief?
So one more time here's the Bible definition.
So what does the Bible mean by believe? The New Testament Greek word pisteuo (believe) means to “be convinced of something” or “give credence to.” We must be convinced that it is an historical fact that more than 2,000 years ago Jesus Christ died on a cross and rose the third day.
I would imagine after 32 pages of posts we would have a good understanding Internal security and really not need to go back over everything again.
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