Eternal Security

Do you believe that there will be some some regenerated persons who will subsequently forfeit/lose their salvation and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire?
Precious friend, Great question - thanks for asking:

I absolutely agree with Scripture that No 'regenerated' persons will Ever be in the lake of fire!:

Post # 604
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God's Operation Is Performed on all new-born babes In Christ!
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God's Eternal Life Insurance!

Thanks for asking, and Greater Thanks Be Unto God For:

His Own Precious BLOOD! (Acts 20:28)​

Amen.
 
Precious friend, Great question - thanks for asking:

I absolutely agree with Scripture that No 'regenerated' persons will Ever be in the lake of fire!:

Post # 604
+
God's Operation Is Performed on all new-born babes In Christ!
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance!

Thanks for asking, and Greater Thanks Be Unto God For:

His Own Precious BLOOD! (Acts 20:28)​

Amen.
You stated, "I absolutely agree with Scripture that No 'regenerated' persons will Ever be in the lake of fire!:"

Yes indeed, to be even more precise ... all those people who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit will never ever become "un-regenerated" people.
 
I think lordship salvation and eternal security go hand in hand. But it's not what we do that makes makes us secure it's what Jesus did... past tense.

When we sin Today During our Christian walk we Confess our sin and ask for forgiveness and we are forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness. By the blood of Jesus. We are to abide abide abide in Jesus That means living him.

When we decide to take a little trip and end up in a extended stay motel we realize our decision wasn't that great. Maybe God had put some obstacles in our path to help us come to our senses.

The thing is eternal security is not about us it's about Jesus. He's the one that keeps us even when we mess things up. He knew what he was getting when he saved us we didn't have to clean up our act first. And we're not going to be perfect until we get our glorified bodies in our living in heaven until then we're always going to fall short.

Lee Strobel did an interview with Charles Templeton he was the front-man for the Campus Crusade for Christ that Billy Graham was part of. Billy Graham couldn't hold a candle to him he said so himself. At any rate Charles after enormous success as an evangelist decided to leave God. He even wrote a book about it:

Farewell to God: My Reasons for Rejecting the Christian Faith​

The book claims that he came to believe in evolution instead of God.

But there is another story circulating around that he had an affair and got a divorce which back in those days was frowned upon big time and could definitely end your career as an evangelist. What's interesting after years and years had passed what he now has to say about Jesus.

Then, Strobel directed the old gentleman’s attention to Christ. How would he now assess Jesus at this stage of his life?


Strobel says that, amazingly, Templeton’s “body language softened.” His voice took on a “melancholy and reflective tone.” And then, incredibly, he said:

“He was the greatest human being who has ever lived. He was a moral genius. His ethical sense was unique. He was the intrinsically wisest person that I’ve ever encountered in my life or in my reading. His commitment was total and led to his own death, much to the detriment of the world.”

Mind you, he’s talking about the same Teacher who claimed to have existed eternally before Abraham was born (Jn. 8:58), who asserted his oneness of nature with God, the Father (Jn. 10:30), and who allowed men to honor him as “Lord and God” (Jn. 20:28).

If these things were not true, that would make Jesus of Nazareth the most preposterous and outrageous con-man who ever walked the earth. Thousands happily went to their deaths, in the most horrible ways imaginable, confessing his deity.

But the interview continued.

Strobel quietly commented: “You sound like you really care about him.”

“Well, yes,” Templeton acknowledged, “he’s the most important thing in my life.”

He stammered: “I . . . I . . . I adore him . . . Everything good I know, everything decent I know, everything pure I know, I learned from Jesus.”

Strobel was stunned. He listened in shock. He says that Templeton’s voice began to crack. He then said, “I . . . miss . . . him!”

Templeton lived to 85 I have a feeling during those last years of his life he made his peace with God he made his peace with God.
 
Ezekiel 18:24
26 If a RIGHTEOUS person turns from their righteousness and commits sin , they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die

Isaiah 59

1] Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2] But your INIQUITIES have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

John 15:5-9
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

2 Timothy 2:
15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


The whole council of God must govern our walk with him.FEW THERE ARE THAT FIND IT !

 
Do you believe that there will be some some regenerated persons who will subsequently forfeit/lose their salvation and consequently perish eternally in the Lake of Fire?
I believe what I've said IF.....IF.......we walk in the light as he's in the light....we'll have fellowship with one another AND the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin. You don't choose to believe that people can walk out of LIGHT (Christ) I do. And if it's gone to the place they openly reject him and as a continual pattern walk in the darkness and in sin without any remorse then I believe the following is also true,

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:4

So I can believe Once Saved Always Saved as long as you join with it Once Walking in the Light always to walk in the Light. Doesn't mean one can't ever fail get back up and ask forgiveness but what is one choosing as a continual committed pattern in their life.....sin....or righteousness? If one chooses to move away from abiding in him then what do you see is the end result above? (John 15:4)
 
I believe what I've said IF.....IF.......we walk in the light as he's in the light....we'll have fellowship with one another AND the blood of Jesus will cleanse us from all sin. You don't choose to believe that people can walk out of LIGHT (Christ) I do. And if it's gone to the place they openly reject him and as a continual pattern walk in the darkness and in sin without any remorse then I believe the following is also true,

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:4

So I can believe Once Saved Always Saved as long as you join with it Once Walking in the Light always to walk in the Light. Doesn't mean one can't ever fail get back up and ask forgiveness but what is one choosing as a continual committed pattern in their life.....sin....or righteousness? If one chooses to move away from abiding in him then what do you see is the end result above? (John 15:4)

"If one chooses to move away from abiding in him then what do you see is the end result above? (John 15:4)"

If a person does not continue abiding in Christ, it provides evidence that they were never regenerated by the Holy Spirit ... they had never become new creatures "in Christ".
 
"If one chooses to move away from abiding in him then what do you see is the end result above? (John 15:4)"

If a person does not continue abiding in Christ, it provides evidence that they were never regenerated by the Holy Spirit ... they had never become new creatures "in Christ".
You can be a Christian and still walk in the flesh. If you want a good and proper relationship with Christ then you abide in him. If you choose to walk in the flesh for a period of time, you're still saved and the relationship is not severed it's just not a good relationship. The holy spirit is a gentleman that will lead us into all truth but you have to listen to him. If you don't listen to him he'll quit talking to you. Your still part of the family of God. But when you get to heaven and you see him handing out rewards there won't be one with your name on it.
 
"If one chooses to move away from abiding in him then what do you see is the end result above? (John 15:4)"

If a person does not continue abiding in Christ, it provides evidence that they were never regenerated by the Holy Spirit ... they had never become new creatures "in Christ".
But you admit they were abiding in Christ but they didn't stay in him. How can one be abiding IN CHIRST and not have been regenerated? Your answer seems like you're desperately just trying to make it what you want it. I say if you're abiding in Christ you MUST be a new creature.
 
You can be a Christian and still walk in the flesh. If you want a good and proper relationship with Christ then you abide in him. If you choose to walk in the flesh for a period of time, you're still saved and the relationship is not severed it's just not a good relationship. The holy spirit is a gentleman that will lead us into all truth but you have to listen to him. If you don't listen to him he'll quit talking to you. Your still part of the family of God. But when you get to heaven and you see him handing out rewards there won't be one with your name on it.
I think that would all depend on how far into sin one goes. If one is decided to go back to their gross sin like a dog does their vomit and they've made a decision to do everything an apostate does in rejecting and speaking evil of our Lord sorry but there's no way there just not going to get any rewards.
 
But you admit they were abiding in Christ but they didn't stay in him. How can one be abiding IN CHIRST and not have been regenerated? Your answer seems like you're desperately just trying to make it what you want it. I say if you're abiding in Christ you MUST be a new creature.

" I say if you're abiding in Christ you MUST be a new creature."

Agreed.
 
I think that would all depend on how far into sin one goes. If one is decided to go back to their gross sin like a dog does their vomit and they've made a decision to do everything an apostate does in rejecting and speaking evil of our Lord sorry but there's no way there just not going to get any rewards.
Key word "IF".
Jesus does not let that happen. He does not let any of His sheep go for long. He will go get them.

Sin is sin, the Bible says we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. We miss the mark. But if we confess our sin God who is faithful and just forgives us our sin And cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
 
You can be a Christian and still walk in the flesh. If you want a good and proper relationship with Christ then you abide in him. If you choose to walk in the flesh for a period of time, you're still saved and the relationship is not severed it's just not a good relationship. The holy spirit is a gentleman that will lead us into all truth but you have to listen to him. If you don't listen to him he'll quit talking to you. Your still part of the family of God. But when you get to heaven and you see him handing out rewards there won't be one with your name on it.

In order to more precisely express my point as it concerns your comment, I should edit it to say:

All those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit will abide in Christ as the inevitable result, consequence, or by-product of being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
 
But you admit they were abiding in Christ but they didn't stay in him. How can one be abiding IN CHIRST and not have been regenerated? Your answer seems like you're desperately just trying to make it what you want it. I say if you're abiding in Christ you MUST be a new creature.

1 John 3:9 and the Permanent Nature of the New Birth :

English Standard Version - 1 John 3:9 :

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed [abides] in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

English Standard Version - 1 John 3:6 :

"No one who [abides] in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."


The Matter of Abiding in God :

Greek Interlinear - 1 John 3:9 - "for God's seed abides in him" :

seed of Him [sperma autou] in [en] him [autō] abides [menei]

Greek Interlinear 1 John 3:6 - "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning" :

Anyone [pas ho] in [en] Him [autō] abiding [menōn] not [ouch] sins [hamartanei]


In both 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 3:6 the root word used for abide/abiding is menó - Strong's Concordance #3306 :

menó: to stay, abide, remain
Original Word: μένω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: menó
Phonetic Spelling: (men'-o)
Definition: to stay, abide, remain
Usage: I remain, abide, stay, wait; with acc: I wait for, await.

As I have demonstrated in part 2 [ post #155 ], 1 John 3:9 [as well as 1 John 3:7] tells us that all those born of God will not characteristically and habitually live in sin. This certainly does not hold true for any person who has not been born of God. The clear implication contained in 1 John 3:6 is that those who are not born of God do not know [and have never known] Him, they have never been implanted with [i.e. - regenerated by] God's seed ... the seed of Him ... the "sperma autou."

"no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." [1 John 3:6(b) - ESV].

"anyone [pas ho] sinning [hamartanōn] not [ouch] has seen [heōraken] him [auton] nor [oude] has he known [egnōken] him [auoton]." [1 John 3:6(b) - Greek Interlinear].

The vital truth here, as it concerns the eternal security of the believer, is that only two groups of people are in view here ... [1] those who are born of God, and [2] those who are not born of God. All those counted among the first group will abide in God until the end of their earthly journeys [1 John 3:9]. It simply does not logically follow that any among the second group were at one time members of the first group - but then proceed to abandon their faith [thereby once again being counted among the second group] ... it is a logical fallacy.


Conflicting Perspectives :

So, once again we have come full circle to a recurring issue that is of paramount importance to realize and comprehend concerning the eternal security of the believer. Should we view an individual's abiding in God as a necessary condition in order to receive their Heavenly inheritance? ... or should we view their abiding as the inevitable effect or by-product of the implantation of God's seed into an individual's very nature?

It appears to me that this is not an [absolute] case of "either/or", but rather an "both/and" scenario. I would add that it is also perhaps the leading contributing source pertaining to the confusion and disagreements that abound between the two opposing camps.

The solution and perspective that I offer is that of a OJAJ [Once Justified Always Justified] Molinist; it's simply the one that I believe best reconciles all of the scriptural data on the issue.

(1) Abiding in God/Christ as being an essential condition for a future entrance into Heaven should not be denied.

(2) Abiding in God/Christ as the inevitable effect or end result of being born of God should not be denied.

So, how are these two truths harmonized? ... simply do not deny either of those truth claims. In other words, since abiding in God is the inevitable result of all those having been born of God, the essential condition of continuance in Him will at the same time [inevitably] be fulfilled by those persons. A person does not abide in God in order to retain or "maintain" the implanted seed of God within them ... rather, they abide in God due to, and because of, the reality that God's seed abides in them ... permanently.
 
Key word "IF".
Jesus does not let that happen. He does not let any of His sheep go for long. He will go get them.
Are you really reading everything in context. I'd say clearly you're not. Let's look at it, 2 Pt 2:20

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Pt 2:20

It says they escaped the pollutions of the world. How can you do that without genuinely have been saved or regenerated? And it says their end is worse than their beginning and they'd be better off if they DID NOT KNOW the Lord. So where is there anything in that which says the Lord won't allow it to happen? Merely trying to make the Bible say what you want it to say.

 
I think that would all depend on how far into sin one goes. If one is decided to go back to their gross sin like a dog does their vomit and they've made a decision to do everything an apostate does in rejecting and speaking evil of our Lord sorry but there's no way there just not going to get any rewards.
In my opinion, I don't believe that any genuine blood-bought child of God won't receive any rewards whatsoever ... my reasoning is as follows :

"Saved; yet so as by Fire" :

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If anyone’s work shall be burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." [KJV]....

Verses 10-14 :
"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."

As a "Once Justified, Always Justified" proponent, a common question that is asked of me concerning the above verses runs along the following lines:

" If you've got these people who are not building with the right materials and not building on the right foundation, it seems like, fire is going to come, it's going to test it, if their work is burned up, this person's going to suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. So, if you've got a person who goes to the Judgment Seat of God in the end, and everything gets burned up, how is that different from a lost person who shows up at Judgment Day and has no good works?"

My Perspective :

The context of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 is primarily concerned with the role of teachers in the building up of the church. However, I think the principle behind the text "..will be saved, but only as through fire." (v15), is something that should concern all believers. For it seems to be a reference to the Judgment Seat of Christ; hence verse 13, "each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire..." [note: the terms 'each one' and 'anyone' could be referring to all believers].

All believers will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ [not just those in ministry leadership roles], as in 2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

Notice also that the text (i.e. 1 Corinthians 3:15) was originally addressed to believers who Paul referred to as 'carnal' or 'infants' in Christ [1 Corinthians 3:1], because of all their divisions, envy and strife [1 Corinthians 3:3]. One could argue that such believers will be saved, but only as through fire [i.e. by the skin of their teeth]. So the text (1 Cor 3:15) could arguably apply to spiritually immature as well.

Returning to the main text -- verse 15, ""If anyone’s work shall be burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

It's unthinkable to me that there will be a single genuine believer who will arrive at the end of their life and 'the fire is going to hit them', and nothing in his/her life will be deemed to be according to the will of God. It appears to me that there will be nobody entering into Heaven who didn't live a life that was consistent with doing the will of God.

What then is my perspective on this verse? I believe that there are two main takeaways or precious truths contained within it :

(1) There will be eternal rewards awaiting those who diligently seek to do the will of God and have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. We only get one "shot" at those rewards ... there will be no "do-overs" ... so we should earnestly strive for those rewards.

(2) Salvation is simply granted to man as a free gift, through God's immeasurable grace and mercy ... not of works. Those who are not genuine believers [i.e. - "lost people"] imagine this scriptural reality to be either "too easy" or "too good to be true". They somehow cling to the demonic delusion that they can somehow merit a Heavenly inheritance by their moral performance.

The various questions that arise from our main text [1 Cor. 3:10-15] revolve full circle back to the issue of the relationship between faith and works. Faith and works are clearly revealed throughout scripture as being polar opposites concerning their roles in a person's justified status before God. A person can only be considered righteous before God by faith in Christ's atoning work on their behalf.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: ... v.9 ,"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Romans 4:5, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

It is vital to understand that [saving] faith is merely an instrument that grasps Christ, and, as such, is intrinsically unworthy in itself: . . . we are righteous by faith, that is, through mercy for the sake of Christ we are righteous, not because faith is a virtue which merits the remission of sins by its own worthiness. . . . Therefore we do not say that we are righteous by faith in the sense that this is a worthiness of such great power that it merits remission, but in the sense that there must be some instrument/faculty in us by which we lay hold upon our Mediator who intercedes for us, and on account of whom the Father is favorable toward us.
 
"No one who [abides] in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."
Here's what Clarke's Commentary says on this verse,

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Whosoever abideth in him - By faith, love, and obedience.
Sinneth not - Because his heart is purified by faith, and he is a worker together with God, and consequently does not receive the grace of God in vain. See on 1 John 3:3 (note).

Hath not seen him - It is no unusual thing with this apostle, both in his gospel and in his epistles, to put occasionally the past for the present, and the present for the past tense. It is very likely that here he puts, after the manner of the Hebrew, the preterite for the present: He who sins against God doth not see him, neither doth he know him - the eye of his faith is darkened, so that he cannot see him as he formerly did; and he has no longer the experimental knowledge of God as his Father and portion.



 
Here's what Clarke's Commentary says on this verse,

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Whosoever abideth in him - By faith, love, and obedience.
Sinneth not - Because his heart is purified by faith, and he is a worker together with God, and consequently does not receive the grace of God in vain. See on 1 John 3:3 (note).

Hath not seen him - It is no unusual thing with this apostle, both in his gospel and in his epistles, to put occasionally the past for the present, and the present for the past tense. It is very likely that here he puts, after the manner of the Hebrew, the preterite for the present: He who sins against God doth not see him, neither doth he know him - the eye of his faith is darkened, so that he cannot see him as he formerly did; and he has no longer the experimental knowledge of God as his Father and portion.

Born again believers still sin. I don't think Sinless Perfection Is obtainable this side of heaven. Except for Jesus. But as for us it's pretty easy to sin. It can happen driving your car. It can happen in the grocery checkout line for the parking lot. And the list goes on and on.

Sin” is any thought, word, or action that is contrary to the character or law of God. We all sin (Romans 3:23), and even what we consider good deeds are often tainted by selfish motives or pride (Isaiah 64:6). Left to ourselves, it is impossible to please God or to be completely free from sin (Romans 3:10; Ecclesiastes 7:10).
 
Are you really reading everything in context. I'd say clearly you're not. Let's look at it, 2 Pt 2:20

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Pt 2:20

It says they escaped the pollutions of the world. How can you do that without genuinely have been saved or regenerated? And it says their end is worse than their beginning and they'd be better off if they DID NOT KNOW the Lord. So where is there anything in that which says the Lord won't allow it to happen? Merely trying to make the Bible say what you want it to say.
Pot...Kettle? I clearly say that I am. And will continue to do so. See that word if. Also the scripture you quoted doesn't say they know the Lord as an personal relationship it says they have knowledge of the Lord. Lots of people have knowledge of the Lord that doesn't mean they're saved. That doesn't mean they've had any kind of sanctification going on. Knowing the way of righteousness could mean someone just evangelized you and told you the gospel. That doesn't mean you accepted it. So instead of moving forward they just went back to their old life. Doesn't have anything to do with eternal security.
 
Also the scripture you quoted doesn't say they know the Lord as an personal relationship it says they have knowledge of the Lord.
Thing is though Azriel it doesn't say they just knew the knowledge of the Lord like some mental assent. It says they had escaped the pollutions of the world, and it says if after the have. So if we're led to believe they had escaped the pollutions of the world that has to mean they were saved, unless you're saying they did this by mere will power. To have escaped the pollutions would have to mean they were regenerated.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, 2 Pt 2:20

Lots of people have knowledge of the Lord that doesn't mean they're saved. That doesn't mean they've had any kind of sanctification going on.
These people did have sanctification going on. It states they had escaped the pollutions of the world.

Knowing the way of righteousness could mean someone just evangelized you and told you the gospel. That doesn't mean you accepted it.
Again they had to have accepted it. They had escaped the pollutions of the world.

Doesn't have anything to do with eternal security.
Of course it does.
 
One must CONDITIONALLY be of "MY SHEEP" and remain of "my sheep" to not perish/be saved.

Verse 27 to be a sheep of Christ one must CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Christ and both verbs hear and follow are present tense that denotes an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. Those that become unfaithful and do not maintain a sustained hearing and following are no longer of Christ's sheep and can perish. There are CONDITIONS all in this context that one must meet and CONTINUE to meet in order to be saved/not perish.
Did you know sheep or when it's the dumbest animals there are. The reason they need a shepherd is because they'll wander off. They need a good shepherd and a couple of sheep dogs. So the to use the analogy of a sheep sticking close to the shepherd doesn't work too good. I've heard of the shepherd breaking the leg of a sheep that keeps on going astray. Sounds harsh but in reality going astray is a good way to be eaten by a wolf. Better to have a bum leg and stick with the herd.
 
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