Such as?similar to mine
SOTERIOLOGY 101, Provisionism [ Calvinists of course can be excluded.]
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
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FreeInChrist
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I’m a lifelong Buckeye, which some say means I’m an inedible, good for nothing nut!But we’re still National Champions!
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
This is the predestined objective of God in and for those who believe; to conform us to the image of Jesus.
Eph 1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
This shows God predetermining the character of those who would believe.
…In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—…
Here , the means of inclusion, adoption into God’s family, is predestined.
The use of “us” in these verses refers to those who are already believers, and Paul is talking about what God predestined those who would believe to be. He does not say that we are predestined to believe, but that those who God foresaw would believe would be adopted into his family and that they would be holy and blameless.
We are not predestined to believe... those that God foresaw would believe..... A great description of free will to me and acceptance when we do believe. I cannot include the predestined term in that because predestined covers being hand picked, and foreknowledge covers what is known about you and the belief you will accept.
civic
Active Member
Tulip
What about it?
brightfame52
Active Member
@FreeInChrist
Thats false, the elect were predestined to the image of Christ before the world began, before they were called in time Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Adoption of children by Jesus Christ is Faith in Christ and they were predestinated unto adoption not because of adoption
Thats false, the elect were predestined to the image of Christ before the world began, before they were called in time Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Adoption of children by Jesus Christ is Faith in Christ and they were predestinated unto adoption not because of adoption
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52
6000 or 7000 or even longer years ago out Heavely Father hand molded a man from the dust of the earth.
Gen 2:7 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Then our Heavenly Father planted the garden, where there were rivers and He 15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. THEN 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
Realizing it was not good for Adam to be alone, all the animals were named and looked over but not a suitable companion for Adam, therefore our Heavenly Father provided Eve.
First of all, can you tell me if, as you believe, the elect were predestined to the image of Christ before the world began.... why would God have placed a forbidden fruit in the center of Paradise to tempt the man, even before God had provided the woman for him?
She was not provided immediately,
18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.
So now we have the man Adam, and the Woman, eventually called Eve.
And she was the one who tripped up first.
But my 2nd question is this...
If.... just disregarding the snake in all of this,... she ate the fruit then she got Adam to... which certainly had to be due to their having free will, just like the bright and morning star angel and 1/3 or the others in heaven....
Why do you think that the Heavenly Father provided the temptation, or perhaps we could say it was a test, when he knew
from His foreknowledge they would fail.
#3. Did the Heavenly Father intend for their downfall for reasons we can only guess at.
LAST. They were specifically punished for disobeying when they were dent from the garden. Obviously they were not predestined to be of the elect. With that being said, when did the predestination begin in man? Just take time to ponder what happened back then to many and the elect system does not appear to have been equally applied to those through the centuries.
Cane slew Abel. Was cane an elect? I dont think so.
Could it be that it came into more existence after Noah and the earth was starting all over again? But we still had those who
operated with free will and examples of such where we have the prodigal son who struck out on his own and then changed his mind and came back. These are just a couple examples and scriptures are full of them.
And I see it still possible that knowing the prophets and disciples were predestined to do what they did for Jesus and the Father.
That there are some, maybe even you... while others are given the free will to make their choice.
brightfame52
Active Member
the elect were predestined to the image of Christ before the world began, before they were called in time Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Eph 1:4-5
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Adoption of children by Jesus Christ is Faith in Christ and they were predestinated unto adoption not because of adoption
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Fine.
As expected unanswered question, but no harm as a non answer tells it like it is.
Then by your proof God did intend for mans fall from the beginning. Because he created Eve and Adam to fail. And provided the earth for it to happen. And that only a select number were to be saved out of all that would be procreated..
(I truly wish any predestined subscriber would give their 2 cents worth of opinions as to why this creation was started with problem people? If this was their predestined life as we have been told. WHY?... Kind of puts e in mind of putting 2 Beta fish in the same fish bowl knowing in advance it wont turn out well)
Ergo: Calvin was right,
John Calvin's doctrine of predestination teaches that God has eternally chosen some individuals for salvation while others are destined for damnation, a concept known as double predestination. This belief emphasizes God's sovereignty and grace, asserting that salvation is entirely the result of God's will rather than human effort
You should enjoy this entire article
Jean Calvin on Predestination:
Institutes of Christian Religion, 1559 Edition, Chapter 21:
OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHERS TO DESTRUCTION.
Sections.
1. The doctrine of Election and Predestination. It is useful, necessary, and most sweet. Ignorance of it impairs the glory of God, plucks up humility by the roots, begets and fosters pride. The doctrine establishes the certainty of salvation, peace of conscience, and the true origin of the Church. Answer to two classes of men: 1. The curious. [2. Those who are unwilling that the doctrine should be adverted to]
[...]
4. [An] objection—viz. That this doctrine is a stumbling-block to the profane. Answer 1. The same may be said of many other heads of doctrine. 2. The truth of God will always defend itself. [Another] objection—viz. That this doctrine is dangerous even to believers. Answer 1. The same objection made to Augustine. 2. We must not despise anything that God has revealed. Arrogance and blasphemy of such objections.
5. Certain cavils against the doctrine. 1. Foreknowledge regarded as the cause of predestination. Foreknowledge and predestination explained. Not foreknowledge, but the good pleasure of God the cause of predestination. This apparent from the gratuitous election of the posterity of Abraham and the rejection of all others.
6. Even of the posterity of Abraham some elected and others rejected by special grace.
7. The Apostle shows that the same thing has been done in regard to individuals under the Christian dispensation.
There are many many links that support you but I shall leave it at this one.
I will be posting on another thread one that I hope you will just by pass, for it will not be so pleasant as this one for you
Toodles
civic
Active Member
Resistible Grace
Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!
Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."
Limited Atonement
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,
"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."
1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51
2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2
3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16
hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
Active Member
TibiasDad
Active Member
They demonstrate God’s grace being rejected and therefore resisted, and that by the will of the “natural man”!
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
TibiasDad
Active Member
It is being stated by actions! The actions that are infallibly expressed in the infallible scriptures.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
The actions evidence depravity and what man does naturally and is naturally, which is why Grace is needed. Man by nature is at enmity against God Rom 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Nothing stated about Grace being resisted as if God is trying to save people by Grace and they can resist it.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
When something is called... When something is invited.... by God, as the following... these are not the actions of natural man, they are the actions of men saying no, when God calls. Just like Eve was given and she turned toward food instead of the heavenly Father. ... as did Adam, but I can sense a difference with him. You would not understand.
It is free will.
resisting the Holy Spirit;
they would not come.
I have gathered together your children, and you were not willing!
and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen;
because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened.
brightfame52
Active Member
Nothing about Grace being resistible. Grace reigns unto eternal life through Righteousness by Jesus Christ our Lord. It reigns over death Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
TibiasDad
Active Member
They evidence rejection of the gospel; the gospel being preached to them is, in itself, and expression of Grace by God through the action of preaching.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
That's the natural man reaction to the Gospel, to reject it. That's nothing new
TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
There is no exception
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