Eternal Justification !

[Red Baker]

That website is based upon English correlations. You must believe English is required to understand the Bible.

Please state clearly that you believe this. Otherwise, you're making a circular argument.

God has preserved his word in every language he so desire to do so ~ no one has to understand English to understand truth, all one needs is the Spirit of God to teach them in their own language. No one needs to know Hebrews or Greek, if all they know is.... let say~ German, no problem for God to reveal is truths to them.

I'll finish tomorrow answering your post.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God has preserved his word in every language he so desire to do so ~ no one has to understand English to understand truth, all one needs is the Spirit of God to teach them in their own language. No one needs to know Hebrews or Greek, if all they know is.... let say~ German, no problem for God to reveal is truths to them.

I'll finish tomorrow answering your post.

Make that claim work with your "seven times" belief. It doesn't. Why make such claims and then appeal to enlightenment apart from the Scriptures?

What you believe doesn't necessitate the Scriptures. You're now preaching God "zaps" people without any context of Scriptures.

 

[Red Baker]

I hope you don't mind me joining this conversation.....

Well, like you really care, it looks like you have already made your presence known.~Mr. Wisdom "will die with me"!

Are you one of those men, who believes everyone needs to hear their wisdom ~ they just butt into every conversation they are around and when a question is asked someone other than them, they immediately begin to talk........ thinking, who knows better than me.

.I'm going to dismantle your argument one statement at a time.

Sir, you can learn a lesson (maybe) from a wicked king in Israel, who did have these words to say, about the only wise words that ever came out of his mouth:

1 Kings 20:11​

“And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his harness boast himself as he that putteth it off.”

Your boasting is nothing to me, at my age......... I'm almost ready to take my hardness off ~ I most likely have not seen anything that you possibly can set forth and not came out on the other end unharmed~yes, have few battles wounds, yet, none that were life-threatening.

The fatal flaw you're making here is that you're judging the words of another based upon what you want them to say and not what they actually say.

You are dismissing the words of Paul relative to your own appeal to the doctrine you believe.

Do you know how to properly have a discourse with another on a forum? I think not. You are making a blanket statements without dismantling my point with your argument from the scriptures to support your position of saying what you are saying. Prove what you are saying, or you are become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Did you notice that Paul appealed to Hymenaeus and Alexander's potential change?

"that they may learn not to blaspheme". Read those words again "that they may learn not to blaspheme."

There is nothing in those words that even hint to pray for such men~you are guilty of reading words into that verse.

Jesus Christ himself did not pray for all men without exceptions, and if you think he did think again, if you can, not sure you can, or even desire to do so.

John 17:9,20,21~"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.......................................Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

What you don't know. What Paul didn't know (and rightfully recognized with his own words here) is the" if and when" wherein someone might change......

SIr, the only person void of understanding here would be you, certainly not Paul and yes, many things I do not know, but what truths God has been pleased to reveal to me, I will stand fast upon those truths, so help me God.

That is why we rightful pray for sinful men of "all types". Get the "ALL" comments. All types included... = equaling ALL.....

Sir, pray for who you will~it does not mean God will listen for a few reasons, some have committed the unpardonable sin, mainly would be those who speak against God's testimony of creation, who deny and speak against God's miracles, etc. We should not pray for those who do harm to Christians and who take scriptures and corrupt them replace them with their own traditions, etc. Jesus said leave them alone. Matthew 15:13,14.. Consider:

Psalms 139:21​

“Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?”

I will not pray for certain men who are God's enemies, that speak against him, his word, and his people. I have no use for men like Arnold Schwarzenegger who mocks Christianity and Jesus Christ, he is not worth my time to pray for him. I will pray for the peace of Jerusalem, that's spiritual (new) Jerusalem, not the nation over in the middle east who we don't even know if many of them are even true Jews from Abraham.

I ask you correct your obvious mistake

Prove them first sir, and if you can, then I trust I will, but I have serious doubts you even know what you are talking about. So far, nothing.

 

[Red Baker]

KJVOnlyist alert!!!!!

The name on your bible tells the tale. Your king is dead.

IFB? Who is your leader besides king james and the monarchy that is fading away? I might know them.



You mean Bereshit (funny ole english renderings) to Yohanan?

I will not waste precious time addressing fools based upon Solomon's use of the word in Proverbs.

Proverbs 26:4~Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.​

Fools do not deserve answers. We should save ourselves the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with them by ignoring their saucy, stupid, or scornful questions. We should take the high road of truth and wisdom, and do not stoop to their haughty insolence or lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone ~ they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for truth.

It is wrong to debate with fools. Fools do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust with fools. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men who do not clearly display godly character and conduct. If we debate them, we honor their foolish ignorance.

We should say enough to shut their mouths, but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). They deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1), and only a beating will truly help them (Proverbs 26:3). To keep them from thinking they are right, we should briefly refute their idiotic notions. Truth does not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either.

If any debates truth with a fool, he will first despise their wise words and ridicule the precious things they tell him (Proverbs 23:9). We will degrade the truth by letting him mock and reproach it. He will then twist our words and use them against us, because his heart is corrupt with hate and violence (Isaiah 29:20-21). Leave him alone, and let him rot just as Jesus said. Selah

 

[Red Baker]

Please share your history in KJVOism. I would like to know who taught you this? I've known many of them before.

See post #344 for your answer.

 

[Rockson]

The context just before limits this world to those that have their sin taken away. Context is our master; we let it define a word rather than a word set context. This is how all literature is read – context must determine word meanings.

Sorry RB but that is something certainly you do not do. I can agree you might sincerely be thinking you're doing that but I'd say you need to go back to the drawing board and do a re-assessment of your beliefs.

Many read this world and impose a doctrine on the Bible it and we cannot bear.

An odd verse doesn't mean the totally of all, an odd place it's used in a hyperbolic sense as in "the whole world has gone after him" Jn 12:19 But a verse like that is an exception and NOT THE RULE. If one took seriously what a Calvinists said about the word, WORLD, that would therefore mean sin didn't enter into the WORLD through one man. Rom 5:12 If you choose to stay with Calvinists on this you would be saying not everybody in the world is under sin.

 

[Rockson]

.

I will not waste precious time addressing fools based upon Solomon's use of the word in Proverbs.

Fools do not deserve answers. We should save ourselves the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with them by ignoring their saucy, stupid, or scornful questions. We should take the high road of truth and wisdom, and do not stoop to their haughty insolence or lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone ~ they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for truth.

It is wrong to debate with fools. Fools do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust with fools. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men who do not clearly display godly character and conduct. If we debate them, we honor their foolish ignorance.

We should say enough to shut their mouths, but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). They deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1), and only a beating will truly help them (Proverbs 26:3). To keep them from thinking they are right, we should briefly refute their idiotic notions. Truth does not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either.

If any debates truth with a fool, he will first despise their wise words and ridicule the precious things they tell him (Proverbs 23:9). We will degrade the truth by letting him mock and reproach it. He will then twist our words and use them against us, because his heart is corrupt with hate and violence (Isaiah 29:20-21). Leave him alone, and let him rot just as Jesus said. Selah

Fools do not deserve answers. We should save ourselves the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with them by ignoring their saucy, stupid, or scornful questions. We should take the high road of truth and wisdom, and do not stoop to their haughty insolence or lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone ~ they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for truth.

It is wrong to debate with fools. Fools do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust with fools. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men who do not clearly display godly character and conduct. If we debate them, we honor their foolish ignorance.

We should say enough to shut their mouths, but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). They deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1), and only a beating will truly help them (Proverbs 26:3). To keep them from thinking they are right, we should briefly refute their idiotic notions. Truth does not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either.

If any debates truth with a fool, he will first despise their wise words and ridicule the precious things they tell him (Proverbs 23:9). We will degrade the truth by letting him mock and reproach it. He will then twist our words and use them against us, because his heart is corrupt with hate and violence (Isaiah 29:20-21). Leave him alone, and let him rot just as Jesus said. Selah

Actually an excellent post although I wouldn't apply it to the poster you were talking too. But a lot of wisdom at least in this post. I will copy and paste it into my files.

 

[Red Baker]

I wouldn't apply it to the poster you were talking too.

I understand, yet he was speaking to me, and not to you, maybe if he would speak to you in manner in which he addressed me, you may think differently.

I don't mind how hard someone comes after me, that comes with the territory we have chosen to be part of. Yet, they need to discourse their arguments using scriptures to disprove their opponents points~likewise, use scriptures to prove their understanding, when that is done, then let the sparks fly, for they certainly will, when folks truly live by their convictions, based upon the word of God. If it gets too hot, then they have a choice to leave the kitchen where the heat is.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry RB but that is something certainly you do not do.

Well, brother, we shall see, since you we know each other very little. I think you may change your mind as we discuss more scriptures, but, we shall see.

I can agree you might sincerely be thinking you're doing that but I'd say you need to go back to the drawing board and do a re-assessment of your beliefs.

Friend, trust me, I'm constantly comparing my understanding with the scriptures~John 5:39. I think every true sincere believer does this from time to time to make sure what he is saying can be supported with scriptures.

An odd verse doesn't mean the totally of all, an odd place it's used in a hyperbolic sense as in "the whole world has gone after him" Jn 12:19 But a verse like that is an exception and NOT THE RULE. If one took seriously what a Calvinists said about the word, WORLD, that would therefore mean sin didn't enter into the WORLD through one man. Rom 5:12 If you choose to stay with Calvinists on this you would be saying not everybody in the world is under sin.

Again, Calvinism in a broad sense includes folks who may, or may use the word world in the same sense in all scriptures where the word may be found. Again context will show us the meaning that God intended for us to understand what is being said.

Brother, every man stands alone upon his own understanding of words used by the Holy Ghost~it is not one sizes fit all of those who interpret scriptures. I may read your understanding, and then civic, then Pink's, and then another man's and then provide my own and we all may disagree, or agree on some and not the others.

I must leave and come back later this afternoon, I have some appointments that I must keep. I typed this fast, forgive my errors. NO time for proofreading.

 

[praise_yeshua]

See post #344 for your answer.

Yeah. I read it. You're the not the first KJVOist that has refused to defend their position.

Some man taught you that nonsense. I've seen it most of my adult life. Over and over and over again. That is how I know you're doing nothing more than "parroting" the silliness of another.

You're claiming things that are absolutely ridiculous and you don't have the ability to defend it. Surprise.... "there is nothing new upon the earth"

 

[praise_yeshua]

I will not waste precious time addressing fools based upon Solomon's use of the word in Proverbs.

Fools do not deserve answers. We should save ourselves the pain, trouble, and waste of time dealing with them by ignoring their saucy, stupid, or scornful questions. We should take the high road of truth and wisdom, and do not stoop to their haughty insolence or lazy ignorance. Answers are not a right to anyone ~ they are a privilege only for those meeting conditions for truth.

It is wrong to debate with fools. Fools do not deserve knowledge or truth. Wisdom is too precious to waste on them. Wise men have better uses of their time. And arguing is a fleshly lust with fools. For these reasons, it is a sin to debate with men who do not clearly display godly character and conduct. If we debate them, we honor their foolish ignorance.

We should say enough to shut their mouths, but anything more is folly and sin (Proverbs 26:5). They deserve no honor (Proverbs 26:1), and only a beating will truly help them (Proverbs 26:3). To keep them from thinking they are right, we should briefly refute their idiotic notions. Truth does not back down from any, but it has no obligation to waste its time on any, either.

If any debates truth with a fool, he will first despise their wise words and ridicule the precious things they tell him (Proverbs 23:9). We will degrade the truth by letting him mock and reproach it. He will then twist our words and use them against us, because his heart is corrupt with hate and violence (Isaiah 29:20-21). Leave him alone, and let him rot just as Jesus said. Selah

I suppose you were never a fool that need someone to tell them they were wrong?

It amazes me just how disconnected from reality Calvinists are.

1. Were you ever a fool?
2. What changed your condition?

What church do you attend. I can come debate your mentors and reasons the Scriptures with them. Do you lead anyone yourself?

 

[Complete]

Continuing with Justification from Everlasting !

As we should consider the Gospel Truth of Eternal Justification, we Look at Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

For it cannot be honestly denied that God the Father did view the Chosen as In Christ before the Foundation of the World, for they were Loved in Him Before the foundation of the world Jn 17:23-24

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Now, If God the Father did view them in Christ before the foundation, did He view them in a state of condemnation or Justification ? We dare not conclude condemnation because that is impossible for those which be in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1, So it must be Justified, for also He did not lay their sins to their charge in Adam Rom 8:33-34; 2 Cor 5:19. The conclusion is obvious, they were Justified before the foundation of the world !

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @brightfame52,

We must never forget the fact that God has 'foreknowledge', or knows beforehand, and is therefore able to pre-destinate accordingly. In the verse above, God pre-destined those that He foreknew, to be 'conformed to the image of His Son'. He also called, justified and glorified them for that purpose.

This was all because He has foresight, He knows in advance those who are His.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @brightfame52,

We must never forget the fact that God has 'foreknowledge', or knows beforehand, and is therefore able to pre-destinate accordingly. In the verse above, God pre-destined those that He foreknew, to be conformed to the image of His Son. He also called, justified and glorified them.

This was all because He has foresight, He knows in advance.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

False

 

[Complete]

False

Hello @brightfame52,

Why do you say that? I would like to know.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you know how to properly have a discourse with another on a forum? I think not. You are making a blanket statements without dismantling my point with your argument from the scriptures to support your position of saying what you are saying. Prove what you are saying, or you are become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

Talk about removing context. I said more than this. You seperated my words from one another. That is so kind of you.

There is nothing in those words that even hint to pray for such men~you are guilty of reading words into that verse.

Jesus Christ himself did not pray for all men without exceptions, and if you think he did think again, if you can, not sure you can, or even desire to do so.

I know YOU don't pray for what you consider a fool. You desire the damnation of fools. Paul wasn't like you. In fact, Paul said that he could wish himself accursed for that hated God.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Just FYI..... that included ESAU based upon your own beliefs. After all ESAU is a descendent of Abraham .......

I'm going to stop right here. I'm not going to let you bloviate through your mistakes.

 

[brightfame52]

Hello @brightfame52,

Why do you say that? I would like to know.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I believe in Justification from eternity, read the thread.

 

[Complete]

I believe in Justification from eternity, read the thread.

Hello @brightfame52,

That does not tell me why you believe what I said to be false.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

Hello @brightfame52,

That does not tell me why you believe what I said to be false.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sorry then, that's what I have, and that's what this thread is mainly about. And if Gods elect were Justified before Him before the world began, it wasn't based on what they would do in time before they existed. Go figure

 

[Red Baker]

Some man taught you that nonsense. I've seen it most of my adult life.

Sir, if you would like to discuss KJV, then start a thread and i'll come and there post why I believe the KJV, is the english version for the English speaking people. Pretty sure I would have no problem defending the KJV over other versions.

This thread is about eternal justification, why do not you prove this doctrine wrong with the scriptures in the spirit of showing patience unto all men, yet standing firm upon your convictions based upon the scriptures?

Some man taught you that nonsense

Let's be honest shall we? We all where taught by men when we first came to Christ, every single one of us, and from that point forward it is our responsibility to be noble believers, to search the scriptures to see if those things be so~which before God, I did, you can speak for your own self and not for others, and neither can I. Before God there was not a stone left unturned, some things I kept but many things I changed by my own commitment to God's word, not to man, God being my witness. But, we can take this over to a thread, I'm finished discussing this on this thread per the rules.

 

[Red Baker]

You're claiming things that are absolutely ridiculous and you don't have the ability to defend it.

Why do you not try testing me with your statement here:

You're now preaching God "zaps" people without any context of Scriptures.

I'll see if there's a thread dealing with regeneration, for I would love to discuss this with others.