Eternal Justification !

[Rockson]

And to @ Red Baker there was this one thing I had asked about your statement below,

Yes, believers flee for refuge to lay hold of God's promises of grace, after God shows his power in us, by regenerating us according to his mighty power and mercy

So it seems you have regeneration outside of the promises of grace for you have them lay hold of grace AFTER regeneration. So what therefore is regeneration in your view?

 

[Red Baker]

So let's stop there for a second. For the reason a gathering of believers might be large you should not assume their doctrine is unsound.

Brother, I do not assume their doctrine is unsound based upon size, yet based upon the manner which they get to be where they are, is never gotten by sound preaching and enforcing godly living and practicing exclusion when folks refuse sound doctrine and living in known sins.

In these large churches most people do not even know each other, even if they join locally. Yet we are to greet the brethren by name; serve one another; exhort one another, when one member suffers, we all are to suffer with him/her; so on, and so forth, you know the scriptures.

SBN has come up with a new way of growing their church, so they can get more $$$$$~it's called Church media members~just tell them you want to be a member and be part of the membership and you can by simply writing them, and of course make sure you support them with your giving. They have around fifty every week around the world, folks they will never see and could never keep the commandments given to the church in serving each others in love, etc. Impossible.

When our Lord left this world, there were around 120 in a upper room meeting as a body to love and serve one another as they were commanded to do.

I could say a lot more concerning how their so-called church is against the scriptures in many other ways, but another time for that discussion.

Sorry RB but I don't believe either that what you call election of grace is a doctrine of God. I believe as all Christians that the Bible does teach on the word election......it also teaches about grace but the meanings you impose upon these words as a Calvinist in my estimation are not valid.

Then pray to tell me how you understand such scriptures as this one?

Romans 11:3-6~"Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

I'll wait until I read your comments.

Depend on how you look at it. If Calvinism is becoming diminished in the hearts and minds of the saints I'd say the Lord is building and developing his church into having a sound foundation of belief.

Brother, go back four to five hundred years ago, even nation held to this truth overall, the world is not getting more holy and enlighten toward God and his truths, but the time has arrived when sound doctrine is longer desire, men had rather hear fables and jokes told them instead of sound preaching. Read 2nd Timothy 3:1-4:5, you know the scriptures.

2nd Timothy 4:1-4~"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Sir, we are now hear see this prophecy of Paul being fulfilled right before our very eyes.

Sorry for any errors in these post, I have a lot to get done today with not much time to do everything.

 

[Red Baker]

The question is then is that a truly credible valid thing to believe. Let's examine it more closely. You're believing God ordains through predestination every thought and action of men ....before they do them.

I do not believe nor do I teach God has ordained all thoughts and actions of men~I said above:

but I also teach from the word of God, that the deeds of both the righteous, and the wicked, are their own deeds, and will be righteously judged and rewarded accordingly. Maybe later we can elaborate on this position.

Let me again read your analogy and we shall continue this discussion. I have some posts to me that I must address first by civic, so he will not think I'm avoiding him.

RB

 

[civic]

I do not believe nor do I teach God has ordained all thoughts and actions of men~I said above:

Let me again read your analogy and we shall continue this discussion. I have some posts to me that I must address first by civic, so he will not think I'm avoiding him.

RB

No worries take you time

And it’s good to hear you don’t think God predetermines our thoughts and actions.

 

[TomL]

@TomL



Yes, when they believed, they had already been in Christ, they were already members of His Body for which He died. They had been chosen in Christ before the foundation Eph 1:4-13

So if a person isnt previously in Christ by election, they will never believe because they didnt belong to Him.

Sorry you can't be in Christ and then out of Christ to be put into Christ when you trust in him

In any case scripture refutes your claim

Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

[Red Baker]

And to @ Red Baker there was this one thing I had asked about your statement below,

Yes, believers flee for refuge to lay hold of God's promises of grace, after God shows his power in us, by regenerating us according to his mighty power and mercy

So it seems you have regeneration outside of the promises of grace for you have them lay hold of grace AFTER regeneration. So what therefore is regeneration in your view?

It is expressed by being "born again", which regeneration properly signifies; see John 3:3,7 and this supposes a prior birth, a first birth, to which regeneration is the second; and which can receive some light by observing the contrast between the two births, they being the reverse of each other: the first birth is of sinful parents, and in their image; the second birth is of God, and in the image of Jesus Christ; the first birth is of corruptible, the second birth of incorruptible seed; the first birth is in sin, the second birth is in holiness and righteousness; by the first birth men are polluted and unclean, by the second birth they become holy; the first birth is of the flesh and is carnal, and at enmity against God; the second birth is of the Spirit and is spiritual, and makes men spiritual men, sons of God; by the first birth men are foolish and unwise, being born like a wild ***'s colt; by the second birth they become knowing and wise: by the first birth they are slaves to sin and the lusts of the flesh, are home born slave to the devil himselfs; by the second birth they become Christ's free men: from their first birth they are transgressors, and go on in a course of sin, till stopped by grace; in the second birth they cease to serve sin, to go on in a course of sinning, but live a life of holiness, yea he that is born of God cannot sin in their new man; by the first birth men are children of wrath, and under tokens of divine displeasure; at the second birth they appear to be the objects of the love of God; regeneration being the fruit and effect of it, and gives evidence of it; a time of life is a time of open love.

Much more could be said, but, the sum of regeneration is......... that one is born again by the same power that brought again our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, by bringing God's elect from being dead in trespasses and sin to life in Jesus Christ to serve the true and living God. It is a brith by the Spirit of God alone, (john 1:13) apart from all means whatsoever~God alone is the only active person doing this new birth, man is totally passive since he is dead in trespasses and sin.

Would love to go to John 3:1-8 and consider the new birth there.

​

 

[Red Baker]

So don't you see that you don't have regeneration as being a part of the promise of grace?

Brother, that's what secures our new birth for us.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry you can't be in Christ and then out of Christ to be put into Christ when you trust in him

In any case scripture refutes your claim

Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The elect have always been in Christ, in fact Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[TomL]

The elect have always been in Christ, in fact Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Sorry you cannot be in Christ and separate from Christ at the same time

Ephesians 2:11–13 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Paul refutes you

Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

 

[Rockson]

Brother, I do not assume their doctrine is unsound based upon size,

Ok that's all I wanted to establish on this. There are some large congregations in the world.....I wouldn't think it's fair to make false assumptions towards them. And to have close fellowship with some that can take place through the use of home groups that meet through a week.

Then pray to tell me how you understand such scriptures as this one?

God preserved 7000 Jews who stayed faithful to God when the persecution of God's servants was taking place. Didn't mean God made them faithful without their utilizing their will FREELY in service to God. It said he did this because they refused to bow their knee to Baal. And as for the election of grace the word there is selection, the selection by grace so God chooses those who by faith choose to receive his grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry you cannot be in Christ and separate from Christ at the same time

Ephesians 2:11–13 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Paul refutes you

Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

Yes the elect are in Christ and seperated from Christ at the same time. All the elect are born spiritually dead and seperated from Christ. Yet in the Purpose of God established before the world began they are in Christ 2 Tim 1:9

 

[Rockson]

Brother, go back four to five hundred years ago, even nation held to this truth overall,

We could get into talking about what people believed four hundred years ago I do have reservations about your assessment of that time BUT really we should have our main focus on what the Apostilles believed and taught not four hundred years ago but 2000 years ago.

Sorry for any errors in these post, I have a lot to get done today with not much time to do everything.

No problem. I make typos and grammar errors myself. The main thing is that we basically understand what the other person is saying. God Bless!

 

[Rockson]

Let me again read your analogy and we shall continue this discussion. I have some posts to me that I must address first by civic, so he will not think I'm avoiding him.

Well Civic just emailed me and told me to tell you don't worry about his posts do my first! (No he didn't, just kidding) Of course take your time....doesn't even matter if you answer in the days ahead. I won't apply this to myself but I heard Superman once say...."I'm always around!"

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry you cannot be in Christ and separate from Christ at the same time

Ephesians 2:11–13 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Paul refutes you

Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

I will only add the proper sense to such verses, a practice you seem to be ignorance of~no pun intended, but we have given you Nehemiah 8:8 and you act as though such scriptures are not for you to even consider.

Christ's sheep were chosen in him and were preserved in him, since the foundation of the world~(Ephesians 1:4; Jude 1:1) and were redeemed by him at the cross; but they were without any knowledge of him, (as a nation) faith in him, love to him, communion with him, or subjection to him, his Gospel, government, laws, and ordinances; and particularly they were without any promises of him, (as a nation) or prophecies concerning him, (as a nation) which were peculiar to the Jews only in the OT; hence the Messiah is called "the Christ of Israel", and who as he was promised, so he was sent only to the lost sheep of the house, of Israel: hence it follows:

alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise (as a nation~RB)

In the OT, God mainly dealt with the nation of Israel, with only a few Gentiles here and there. But now mainly with the Gentiles with a few Jews here and there.

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

Christ's sheep were chosen in him and were preserved in him, since the foundation of the world~(Ephesians 1:4; Jude 1:1)

Right, the elect or sheep were being preserved in Jesus Christ prior to their regeneration and call by the Gospel Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Sanctified here by the Father probably refers to Him setting them apart for Himself in Christ in Election Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Red Baker]

@Red Baker



Right, the elect or sheep were being preserved in Jesus Christ prior to their regeneration and call by the Gospel Jude 1:1

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

Sanctified here by the Father probably refers to Him setting them apart for Himself in Christ in Election Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Please note: God elect were preserved in Christ, before they were called!

to them that are sanctified by God the Father,

Which is to be understood not of internal sanctification, which is usually ascribed to the Spirit of God, but of the act of eternal election, which is peculiar to God the Father; in which sense Christ is said to be sanctified by the Father, and men ordained and appointed to an office, and vessels are set apart the owner's use; ( John 10:36 ) ( Jeremiah 1:5 ) ( 2nd Timothy 2:21 ) ; the language is taken from the ceremonial law, by which persons and things were sanctified, or set apart for sacred use and service; see ( Exodus 13:2 Exodus 13:12 ) ( Leviticus 27:14 Leviticus 27:16 ) ; and so the elect of God are by God the Father sanctified and set apart in the act of election, which is expressed by this word~sanctified.

 

[Red Baker]

This is my FINAL ANSWER from the BIBLE

You are next~I'm on four different forums and it is not easy staying on top of them and not stay a little behind. Maybe in the morning I'll see what we can do with your posts.

 

[civic]

You are next~I'm on four different forums and it is not easy staying on top of them and not stay a little behind. Maybe in the morning I'll see what we can do with your posts.

Take your time my friend no need to rush

 

[brightfame52]

@Red Baker

Please note: God elect were preserved in Christ, before they were called!

Amen

Which is to be understood not of internal sanctification, which is usually ascribed to the Spirit of God, but of the act of eternal election, which is peculiar to God the Father; in which sense Christ is said to be sanctified by the Father, and men ordained and appointed to an office, and vessels are set apart the owner's use; ( John 10:36 ) ( Jeremiah 1:5 ) ( 2nd Timothy 2:21 ) ; the language is taken from the ceremonial law, by which persons and things were sanctified, or set apart for sacred use and service; see ( Exodus 13:2 Exodus 13:12 ) ( Leviticus 27:14 Leviticus 27:16 ) ; and so the elect of God are by God the Father sanctified and set apart in the act of election, which is expressed by this word~sanctified.

Yes John Gill and I agree

 

[Red Baker]

@Red Baker



Amen



Yes John Gill and I agree

Yes, on that part I read Gill, he's overall very sound~he will generally give you two views to consider, and always will tell you which one he thinks is correct, generally I agree with him.

I like John Brine as much as John Gill ~ he was at one time a deacon in the church Gill pastored, then went on and pastor a church for around 34 years himself. His article on Eternal Justification is as good as there are out in print.