The faith of Jesus Christ versus the faith of man

MTMattie

Well-known member
Our brother, @Red Baker , wrote the following quite a while back in another forum. I ran across it and with his permission am posting for ideas, comments, or debate on this view. Both participants in the first thread know I am posting here. One user name redacted.

It is a back and forth of ideas... but not any that I have read here.

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Red Baker:" a new thread using _______s post."


Quote from:Red Baker,"You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be. The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters. There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham. We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.

Guess who is not mentioned in all of that Chapter as having faith. We read not a single word about the faith OF Jesus in that entire chapter. If, as you insist, our salvation rests upon the faith of Jesus, certainly Hebrews of all the books in the NT, would have said something about the faith of Jesus. Jesus occupies the central theme in Hebrews. The great subject of the book is Jesus Christ. And yet for all of that, not one thing is ever said about Jesus having or needing faith. That is because the very idea that Jesus needed to have faith in God is simply ludicrous.

All those spoken of in Hebrews 11 were mentioned because of their faith in God. But Jesus isn't one of them. Why? Simple! Jesus did not need to have faith in God, He was God in the flesh. He is the "author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2). Jesus is the subject of our faith. It is that faith, faith IN Jesus, whereby we are saved. (KJV)Gen 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him for righteousness. It was Abraham's faith that was counted to him for righteousness. It is our faith, our believing, in God, in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, that is counted to us for righteousness; counted to us for righteousness, i.e., justified, i.e, saved.

John tells us that he wrote his gospel "so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31)

It is by believing, by having faith, that we have eternal life. It is our believing; it is our faith.
Quote from: _______s Reply by Red Baker, You hang your hat on the precept of faith OF Jesus; yet you seem not able to define what that could possibly be.
That's your take on my many posts on this phrase~"The faith of Jesus Christ." I'm convinced I have made it very clear as to what it means~ it is not understood by many, maybe most, since men have heard so many times over that it is "our" faith which justified us legally before God's law, which to any unbiased person, who can think for themselves and outside of the box of the many false religions in Mystery Babylon they should be able to reason within the parameter's of God's testimony to us......the holy scriptures that the obedience/faith and righteousness of Jesus Christ is the only material cause of God's mercy to us in making us the righteousness of God, which gives us the right to eternal life.

The efficient cause of man's redemption is God's good pleasure and there can be no other cause. The final cause of man's salvation from sin and condemnation is to the praise and glory of God's grace....See Ephesians chapter one where Paul clearly reveals these truths to us.

That being said the only way these truths can be maintained in their purity is to proclaim Jesus' faith and obedience as the Son of Man for the remission of our sins and the manner in which man receives the righteousness of God and the manner in which man in the flesh can live and please God. God declares this truth powerfully when he said:

Quote from: PaulGalatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
Jesus' very birth~he had to be virgin born~he had to be God's Son, not Adam's...that within itself should speak volumes to you to prove to you that ALL FLESH is sinful as it comes from Adam's posterity....the life and death of Jesus Christ declares a gospel where Jesus' obedience/faith and righteousness is the only works that God accepts for the forgiveness of our sins, all others are wicked and sinful and are at enmity against God. All other gospels are another gospel, which in truth is not gospel (good news) but a system that leaves man without hope by causing him to trust in himself other than 100% in Jesus Christ.
Quote from: _____s Reply The writer of Hebrews defined faith in Chapter 11 and presented us with examples of some of faith of some of the key biblical characters. There was Abel, Enoch, Noah, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Rahab, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, the prophets, and of course one of Paul's favorite, i.e., Abraham. We read there that all these were commended, i.e., obtained a good report, through their faith.
I'm doing this one point at a time, so please wait until I'm finished before commenting on this thread, Your time will come, be patient, I know that's hard for you.

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Comments?
 
Still no comments?

Then I believe it safe to say that there is almost a consensus within the ideas here.

Hooray. I finally lived to see the day with no debate.
 
I agree with whoever said that Jesus did not need faith. because He was God in the flesh. See my post of July 9th. The Things that Jesus did NOT Do:

Jesus did not pray with others, not even His apostles.

Jesus did not give His twelve apostles on the job training in being a leader.

Jesus did not exercise faith.

Jesus, as the Lamb in Revelation 5, did not bow down and worship Him who sits on the throne.

Jesus did not ask God for miracles. He simply did them.

Jesus never refused worship.

Jesus never asked for prayer for Himself.

Jesus never baptized anyone in water.

The reason He did NOT do these things? Because He was God. Here's one more:

Jesus did not get married.
 
Still no comments?

Then I believe it safe to say that there is almost a consensus within the ideas here.

Hooray. I finally lived to see the day with no debate.
Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


When it comes to the faith of Jesus Christ, we must understand the relationship Jesus Christ has with God to have this faith. It's beyond just trusting God because of the acceptance of the new established covenant that demands obedience to God’s testimony. Faith is not a leap in the dark, but a leap through the dark into the light. It's the intelligent acceptance of the report of a reliable witness that would persuade one to accept something as the truth in the reliability of the testimony. The faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them. To recognize and acknowledge the relationship God has entered into with Christ, we must first understand that God is the originator of the covenant relationship, and God is the one who brings into being things that did not previously exist. This is His oath, His covenant, and He can be relied on to keep His part of the contract because He guarantees it, and this is His truth.

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son who is expressing the acknowledgment of his Father’s promises and power. As I stated earlier, the faith of Jesus Christ is the relationship existing between God and Christ in the bond of the covenant between them. The faith Christ has is his faith because of his acknowledgment and acceptance of his Father’s new covenant. Thus, the “gospel of Christ” is born. This faith Jesus Christ has is solid because it's the trust Jesus Christ has with God, who brought him into this special relationship that created the bond of the new covenant between them. We can tap into this faith by our believing and walk and live within the power of the Scriptures because we are connected to the faith of Jesus Christ. It's not our believing that makes us righteous, but the faith of Jesus Christ, whereby we not only have our standing, but also have access to the high and holy privilege that comes with that spiritual standing.

Stephen full of Faith and Power (2000), p. 45 {https://walking-by-the-spirit.com}
 
The interpretation I see as an alternative to us having faith toward Christ Jesus is the translation as the faithfulness of Jesus (the genitive or possessive) form rather than Jesus's faith. This genitive reading would reflect Jesus's perseverance and completion of all that he had to do to bring justification to us. A third perspective joins both the objective (our faith in Christ) with the genitive (faithfulness of Christ). It is said that the ambiguity or multiple senses may be intended. However, I think the attempts to apply to the faithfulness of Christ usually (always?) are a stretch. In Gal 2:15-16, the contrast is between doing works and having faith in Christ. These both, based on the parallelism, indicate the action and mindset of the follower of Christ in trusting in the justification with God achieved through Christ's actions.
Also, Romans 3:22 is not properly read in the genitive sense (faithfulness of Christ). The verse is contrasting works of the law with faith in Christ. Some interpreters, however, have thought the phrase "for all who believe" as being repetitious unless the genitive sense is recognized here. The problem arises simply due to the failure to recognize that "for all who believe" is added to equalize Jew and gentile into this entry into justification by faith. It is possible that the genitive sense has been promoted by Unitarians (like James Dunn) and then picked up by other scholars. These are more direct cases where the genitive sense is in opposition to the structure of the verses. I have not seen if there are cases where the genitive interpretation might fit the passage.
 
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It appears many change the faith of Jesus Christ to faith in Jesus Christ and in doing so they wipe Christ right out of the picture. This is how they have replaced Christ with themselves which allows them to walk in their flesh and call it spiritual.
 
@MTMattie Re: Christ's Faith- Hebrews 12:2:-

'Looking unto Jesus
the author and finisher of our faith;
who for the joy that was set before Him
endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.'

(Heb 12:2)

'We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but
by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ
,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(Gal 2:15-16)

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss
for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord:
for whom I have suffered the loss of all things,
and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in Him,
not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law,
but that which is through the faith of Christ
,
the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection,
and the fellowship of his sufferings,
being made conformable unto His death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.'

(Php 3:7-11)

Praise God!
 
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I stand with @Red Baker Jesus nowhere said He had faith nor did te Apostles. Faith in the N.T. is always linked to Jesus as the the one faith must be placed in, not His faith is what saves us. Jesus had no need of salvation and He is God Incarnate. Jesus uses the word “faith” 41 times in the Gospels and in every case He was speaking of someone else’s faith or their lack of faith. He never used faith about Himself, speaking of his own faith. No other writer in the Bible spoke of Jesus’ faith, either.

So why would I assume something the bible is silent on as fact regarding " Jesus faith" ?

Hebrews defines faith as the following: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (11:1).

So Jesus knows all things in the unseen. He declared I always say and do what I see the Father saying and doing. He knew the hearts of man as God n the flesh. He knows the past, present and future. Its the same reason Jesus had no hope, it was not necessary since all hope is in Him and the recipient of our faith /hope.

hope this helps !!!
 
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The preposition "of" can be fairly ambiguous but in most cases in this particular phrase we have it defined right here:

"even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ"

Paul is not switching up here into two different things, he is saying that us believing in Christ is what justifies, and this is "by the faith of." In this case "of" means "about, belonging to" and that's why it is alternately described as faith in Christ. We do not want to say the faith of Christ saves us monergistically because this violates our free will responsibility to put our faith in Christ, and Christ's faith would then save all people.

As for whether Christ had faith—I think we can deduce he did, based on two solid principles.

One is, Jesus fulfilled the Law of God on our behalf, and the Law explicitly commands faith in God, it asks us to "Trust in YHWH with all your heart." This is why Jesus also worshiped and submitted to the Father. Jesus, of course, had perfect faith in all things.

The second principle is, that Jesus functioned as an actual human being, not as a God-man hybrid. Although divine, Jesus always depended on the Spirit and was made like us into every way, which is why he was given the Spirit without measure and full angelic support, things which a divine nature simply does not need. Notice the Holy Spirit was given full credit for Jesus' miracles in phrases like, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me" and "if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God," and "the power of the Lord was present to heal." Jesus ran his race in our behalf as a true man, qualifying him to stand in our stead.

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (Heb. 5:7-9 NKJ)
 
The second principle is, that Jesus functioned as an actual human being, not as a God-man hybrid.
Since you recognize that Jesus functioned as an actual human being, not as a God-man hybrid, I can see why you don't demand from people to adhere to Jesus deity as God's necessary condition to be forgiven and regenerated.
Everything Jesus did for us He did it functioning as an actual human being, so, even if people like the Jehovah Witnesses don't recognize his deity, they can be connected with that salvific "functioning".

Interestingly, even in his exalted state, the "functioning" of Jesus towards men is presented by the Bible not as pertaining to a God or God-man hybrid nature, but as somebody submitting to God.

1. When the Bible refers to Jesus function as Mediator, it refers to it from his manhood. "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5)
2. When the Bible refers to Jesus final functioning as a victorious conqueror, it presents Jesus as submitting himself to God The Father.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:23-28)
3. When Jesus presents Himself as exalted being in the Book of Revelation, He continues to refer to himself as someone worshiping God, "My God". He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name. (Rev 3:12)
 
Everything Jesus did for us He did it functioning as an actual human being, so, even if people like the Jehovah Witnesses don't recognize his deity, they can be connected with that salvific "functioning".

The problem with JWs is more that they think they working their way to heaven, they do not even know if they will do enough to make it.

They do not trust solely and only in Christ's sacrifice, his suffering for their sins, to save them.

Now, even in his exalted state, the "functioning" of Jesus towards men is presented by the Bible not as God or God-may hybrid, but as somebody submitting to God.

You've put God in a box.

You've got to let him get out of your little box you made for him in your mind, and limited him with.

God submitted to himself in a multi-personal hierarchy just to save us, it's pretty cool actually.
 
The way to believe in God is by being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits by walking in His way in obedience to His law. For example, by being a doer of good works we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about His goodness we are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him, and the same is true for God other character traits. This is also exactly the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so this is both the faith of Jesus and the way to have faith in Jesus.
 
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