Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Red Baker]

The understanding that man must seek God does not in any way reject the need for the life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God.

Doug, it does if one is seeking to be saved from sin and condemnation. To teach the natural man is to do any work that he must have an active role in is to reject Jesus' gospel~period.

Without Jesus' death there would have been no hope, no matter how much we sought God. We could have been standing directly in front of Him and holding onto His hand, but without Christ there would have been no salvation

Your statement is too vague, and leaves the door open to bring in your own self righteous deeds be whatever they may be. We are justified freely by grace alone through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ before the law of God.

But we can seek Him, we were created to seek Him, and many have and still do seek Him.

Doug the fall of Adam changed all that the very second he sinned.

I must come back to finish, I'm leaving to go out of town for a few hours....later...I'm already late leaving. RB

 

[civic]

If not that, then this should put to rest any idea that Salvation is conditional:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

If the Father gives you to Jesus, you WILL come to Jesus and Jesus WILL accept you. No exceptions. No condition on your part.

Here let these Calvinist Theologians below help you understand John 6 below.

It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45


Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.

 

[civic]

This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Pauls summary of Romans 9: Faith vs Works is what Paul is addressing in Romans 9. Gentiles ( non elect by faith ) Jews/Israel ( Gods elect,chosen) by works.

Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate ( the elect,chosen) is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

Romans 9:30–32 -30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

Let us consider these scriptures. Accept my apologies for being a little long.

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.​

What shall we say then?​

Paul brought this section of his argument about election in Israel to an intermediate conclusion, with this common rhetorical question of his (4:1; 6:1; 7:7; 9:14). In this chapter he declared election and reprobation in Israel (9:6), illustrated it by the patriarchs’ families (9:7-13), proved it by theology (9:14-24), and proved it by their O.T. scriptures (9:25-29). He included Gentiles in 9:24, but they are not the main theme of these three chapters, and it should be recalled they were included from the beginning (Rom 1:13-16; 2:17-29; 3:29-30; 4:9-17; etc.). However, to further exacerbate Israel’s situation and make a comparison, he mentioned them in this verse to identify a difficult thing ~ their reception of the gospel against Israel’s rejection of it. Here is the first mention of the gospel in this chapter and the response to it by Gentiles and Israel. The gospel, justification, righteousness, and faith were dealt with thoroughly already (chaps. 3-5). Paul here mentioned to his readers ~ Gentiles showed a better response to the gospel. As Gentiles, we should rejoice and be bound to give thanks for God’s salvation of us (2nd The 2:13). There are two aspects to our reception of the gospel in this letter to those called to be saints in Rome: election and no superstition about the Law.

​

Lets us note there is no mention of unconditional salvation or reprobation in verse 9:6

Romans 9:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul argues first it is not just the physical children of Abraham

Romans 9:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

it should be noted that although Ismael was not the selected seed he was not unconditionally reprobate, doomed to suffer in eternity

Genesis 21:12–20 (KJV 1900) — 12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. 14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beer-sheba. 15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs. 16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. 18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. 19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. 20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.


then he shows within that God is sovereign in selecting within the line of Isaac a particular peoples for service. A people who would carry his message to the world and bring forth the messiah, That would be Jacob (Israel) rather than Esau (edom)

as

Romans 9:10–13 (KJV 1900) — 10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

which is a quote from

Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.
Esau never served Jacob but his descendants Edom did serve David.
Romans 9:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

this is fulfilled Here

Malachi 1:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: Yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; And they shall call them, The border of wickedness, And, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

in God indignation against Edom not Jacob personally

the “hatred” was conditioned upon the Edomites attack upon Israel Obad 1:10

Obadiah 10–13 (KJV 1900) — 10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, And thou shalt be cut off for ever. 11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, In the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, And foreigners entered into his gates, And cast lots upon Jerusalem, Even thou wast as one of them. 12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; Neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; Neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. 13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity: Yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, Nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;

God has the right to select who he makes covenant with and there is no unrighteousness in his doing so

So what is Israel was to receive through covenant with God

Romans 9:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

unconditional salvation was not among the blessings


Romans 9:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

And he sets the grounds upon which he shows mercy

This is a quote from Exodus 33:19. Remember, the biggest mistake people make when reading the NT is ignoring the context of quoted passages from the OT. So let us look at the context, which we know Paul knew very well. Back in the Exodus context and prior to the verse quoted, Israel had rebelled against God in the golden calf incident (Exodus 32) while Moses was on the mountain receiving revelation from God. God told Moses to go down from the mountain because the people had corrupted themselves (Exodus 32:7). They were a stiff-necked people (32:9) and God offered to destroy the nation and start over with Moses (Exo 32:10). Moses then interceded for the rebels, appealing to God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Israel (Jacob) (Exo 32:11-14). God then relented of the initial course to destroy them (so much for determinism). When Moses descended the mountain he dealt directly with the golden calf incident. At his invitation, his own tribe of Levi came together with him to destroy the rebels, and “three thousand men” died in judgement that day (Exo 32:15-29). The next day Moses told the people they “committed a great sin,” but he would appeal to God to see if atonement could be made for them. He then made intercession for them. However, God let Moses know that punishment was coming to those who sinned against Him because of the idolatry of calf worship (Exo 32:30-35).

Exodus 33 continues the event. God instructs Moses to continue on to the Promised Land and that He would give the guidance of His angel, but He would not be among them because of the sin. His presence among them could cause them to be consumed because they are a “stiff-necked people.” When the people heard this, it resulted in a great mourning among them (Exo 33:1-6). Moses then made a temporary tabernacle separated from the camp which enabled a separation between himself and the nation (33:7-11). Then Moses appealed to God for His presence to go with them (Exo 33:12-16). This was something that Moses was accustomed to because God spoke “face to face” (Exo 33:11) with him and he experienced God’s presence in the “cloud” (Exodus 19:9, 24:16, 18). Finally, God granted Moses’ request because Moses found grace in God’s sight (Exo 33:17).

Here also those who oppose God such as Pharoah

Romans 9:17–23 (KJV 1900) — 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As well as Israelites

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Above we see the rise of an interlocutor

WHO IS THE OBJECTOR IN ROMANS 9?

Paul used a literary device called "diatribe" by which he would anticipate the objections of his audience. Discovering who the objector is in the mind of the inspired apostle tells us everything we need to know to discern his soteriological position. Let's consider the two options side by side:

Calvinism: The objector is an non-elect, salvifically hated reprobate who God has chosen from before the foundation of the world to pass over in a sovereignly decreed fallen condition from birth -- a completely hardened condition from the time they are born until the time they die and thus without hope of salvation EVER.

Non Calvinism: The objector is a Jew, who has freely rebelled in the face of God’s loving patience for generations (Rm. 10:21; Mt. 23:37), but who is now stumbling, being cut off, and hardened in their rebellion so as to accomplish a greater redemptive good through their rebellion. However, though he has stumbled he has not stumbled beyond recovery (Rm 11:12); though he has been hardened he may be provoked to envy and saved (Rm 11:14); though he has been cut off from the vine he may be grafted back in if he leaves his unbelief (Rm 11:23).

Romans 9:22–29 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

These are vesels of wrath fitted by their own obstinate rebellion for destruction

He endured these with much long suffering

as seen here

Romans 10:19–21 (KJV 1900) — 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Israel wass not a victim of unconditional election but of their own stubborn obstinate rebellion

Their failure is summed up by Paul in the Following verses

Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

righteousness is not a result of unconditional election but of faith

God has every rightr to preovide mercy and righteousness upon those that believe and with-hold it from those that do not

There is nothing at all about unconditional salvastion in Romans 9

 

[civic]

The Potter and the Clay- the context of Romans 9.

Jeremiah 18 RSV- the reformed/calvinist translation

The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter’s hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

1- who spoiled the clay ?

It was the clay,not the potter. The clay was spoiled in the hands of the potter and the potter reworked it into another vessel. This is the context which Paul uses in Romans 9.

Romans 9- Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hose′a,

“Those who were not my people
I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved
I will call ‘my beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Romans 9 has the elect Jews who are the vessels of destruction and the gentiles as the ones of mercy who were not Gods elect. Through their own rebellion God has called a people who were not His people, the children of God. The potter/clay refutes Calvinism, not supports it. The harden self righteous Jews were rejected by God with a seared conscience. Their rebellion caused a good purpose - the grafting in of the Gentiles.

Jeremiah 18
Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.


In Romans 9 its the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

There are no chapters/verses in the original Greek- so here is the context below which reveals the flaws in Calvinism's soteriology.

Romans 9:30–32 - What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

conclusion: so much for the false teachings of unconditional election. it falls flat on its face from Scripture.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Genesis 32:28
The man said, “From now on, your name will no longer be Jacob. You will be called Israel,

Jacob ( Isreal ) I loved, Esau ( the nations) I hated.

Roman’s 9-11 is about hardened Isreal that God loved . Isreal , the Jews are the ones Paul is rebuking in those chapters whom God has hardened.

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, it does if one is seeking to be saved from sin and condemnation. To teach the natural man is to do any work that he must have an active role in is to reject Jesus' gospel~period.

False, wrong, and completely contrary to direct Biblical statement. Rom 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
It cannot be argued that confession with the mouth is not a physical action. And it cannot be argued that this physical action does not RESULT in salvation.

Your statement is too vague, and leaves the door open to bring in your own self righteous deeds be whatever they may be. We are justified freely by grace alone through the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ before the law of God.

There is no door to "bring in your own self righteous deeds". But there must always be a door open for the actions that God commanded as leading to receiving His forgiveness/salvation/righteousness. And those actions are found in Scripture as posted previously many times.

Doug the fall of Adam changed all that the very second he sinned.

No, our ability to seek God did not change. Read Paul's sermon on Mars Hill again.
"Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore, what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything that is in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made by hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might feel around for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His descendants.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the descendants of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. 30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:22-31)
These people were seeking God, and not wanting to offend any God that they might have missed they had an alter "to an unknown god". Because, as Paul says, God put us in our places (even today, long after the Fall in the Garden) so that we would feel around for Him AND FIND Him.

 

[TomL]

This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context

 

[Red Baker]

Here let these Calvinist Theologians below help you understand John 6 below.

It is not enough to hear God’s voice. He must heed it and learn it and do it. This is a voluntary response. This one inevitably comes to Christ.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 6:45


Shall be all taught of God. This explains the preceding verse. It is by the teaching of his Word and Spirit that men are drawn to God. This shows that it is not compulsory, and that there is no obstacle in the way but a strong voluntary ignorance and unwillingness.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 248–249.

Both of these men are liberal in their understand of Soteriology and I would even consider them very strong in their teachings. I had a set Albert Barnes' full commentaries and gave them all away. Once past 1800's most all men had begin to fall from the truth~and I have read behind many hundreds of them.

 

[Red Baker]

False, wrong, and completely contrary to direct Biblical statement. Rom 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
It cannot be argued that confession with the mouth is not a physical action. And it cannot be argued that this physical action does not RESULT in salvation.

Doug, do I need to go to Romans 10:1-13 again, and prove that the salvation under consideration is not salvation from sin and condemnation, but practical in nature only? It is very easy to prove this. I'll see where I have dealt with Romans 10 on this forum and post it here again. Maybe in the beginning of this thread, let me check this out.

 

[Red Baker]

Doug, do I need to go to Romans 10:1-13 again, and prove that the salvation under consideration is not salvation from sin and condemnation, but practical in nature only? It is very easy to prove this. I'll see where I have dealt with Romans 10 on this forum and post it here again. Maybe in the beginning of this thread, let me check this out.

I found it:

Romans 10:1~Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.​

Brethren~This verse interpretation and application are very important in understanding that most all of God's elect are on different levels of understanding truth~which is why we must show patience unto all men until we perceive no love of the truth in them.​

Many corrupt Paul’s desire and prayer by missing or rejecting elect (2nd Timothy 2:10; 2nd Thess. 3:1-2).

Many corrupt Israel as national Israel, Jews, God’s chosen people, ignoring 9:6 and following.

Many corrupt salvation as from sin and condemnation to eternal heaven, missing gospel conversion here.

Ignoring the context of election within Israel established in the previous chapter is a travesty.

This cannot be national or natural Israel without qualification, for such was already rejected.

My heart’s desire~Paul introduced his heart’s desire in very strong language opening this section of Romans (9:1-3).​

He passed from considering God’s sovereign choices to man’s response to the gospel (9:30-33). Paul had a heart for evangelism, the conversion of unbelieving elect, second to none in the Bible. His heart’s desire should not be confused to be any different than his great labors (2nd Timothy 2:10). Paul endured all the things that he did for the elect’s sakes ~ he did not seek to add to the elect. His purpose was to help them obtain gospel salvation (conversion) along with eternal glory. God guaranteed eternal glory through the surety Jesus Christ (Romans 8:28-39; John 10:26-29).

Romans 10:1 is a popular verse Arminians use for proselytizing for heaven (Matt 23:15), because they always prefer a sound bite rather than find out the real sense of what Paul wrote. It is impossible that Paul desired those without God’s mercy to will and run for it (9:15-16)! But Paul, and us as well, should labor and endure opposition to see them converted to the truth. Paul had certain confident expectation that every one of the elect would surely be saved (8:28-39), thus his heart’s desire must be for something other than eternal life for these children of God.

And prayer to God~Prayer to God, coupled with his heart’s desire, indicates a matter yet uncertain by God’s blessing.​

He did not pray for an Israel to be saved from the lake of fire to heaven’s glory for several reasons. There was no possibility or uncertainty at all regarding the glorification of the elect (8:28-39). He had argued in no uncertain terms that eternal glory was God’s sovereign choice (9:6-24). He had declared, illustrated, and proved sovereign election of God’s children in such terms that there was no room for doubt or uncertainty that they would be saved and the rest could not be. There is not the slightest possibility Paul prayed against the Potter’s will and works (9:20-24). How and why would he pray for vessels of wrath God was enduring until the day of judgment? How and why would he pray for those fitted to destruction and unable to believe the gospel? How and why would he pray against decrees of God just like those under the O.T. (9:25-29)? But he could and would pray for elect Israel to be saved from stumbling over Christ (9:31-33)! Ordinary ministers pray for salvation not knowing God’s will, but this cannot be true of Paul. Paul knew God’s will intimately, especially in Jew-Gentile matters, and he had explained it. It is impossible he prayed contrary to God’s will he knew (2nd Corinthians 12:8-9; Ist John 5:14; Romans 8:27).

For Israel is.................​

The Israel here must be the Israel identified thus far in Paul’s argument – the elect Israel of God. Think! Is the wise and careful apostle burdened and praying for those that were not Israel (9:6)? It is a travesty of Bible interpretation to ignore Paul’s work so far and make this national Israel. Regarding election and reprobation within national Israel, Paul had declared it (9:6), illustrated it (9:7-13), proved it (9:14-24), confirmed it (9:25-29), and applied it to the gospel (9:30-33). Having made the distinction, Paul would not have tried to save those God purposed not to save! Depending on which Israel you make this determines which salvation you will then have to use. From the start, Paul had identified an elect Israel distinct from national Israel as his argument (9:6). As shown there, the issue was one of salvation as the children of God, not national blessings. With such a clear distinction declared, illustrated, proven, confirmed, and applied, we honor it. The following context of this verse proves it to be elect Israel as does the entire preceding context.

He formally testified that this Israel had a zeal of God, an important trait untrue of reprobates. If this zeal of God is subjective-genitive (God’s own zeal), they can only be elect Israelites. If this zeal of God is objective-genitive (their zeal for God), they can only be elect Israelites. If this is merely national Israel’s vain ceremonial worship, Paul made much of what John and Jesus condemned about the same people (Matthew 3:7-12; Mark 7:6-13; John 5:42; 8:44). Paul in other places condemned Jewish religion as vanity (Acts 13:46; Gal 6:13; Ist Thess. 2:14-16).

That they might be saved.​

The salvation here might occur, as it was only a possibility through Paul’s desire, prayer, and labor. God’s election is absolutely and eternally certain, and not a single elect can or will be lost, which Paul had established beyond any doubt before he addressed the issue of Israel (8:28-39). Nowhere in scripture do we read of a heart’s desire or prayer to God for election of any, which is God’s work alone, and Paul had already ascribed it to the will of the Potter alone (9:15-24). It is impossible Paul would desire or pray for a thing certain, especially eternal life for the elect.

As we shall see, conversion is the salvation here, and it varies greatly among the elect of God.

The ordo salutis of salvation has long been forgotten and overlooked by nearly all believers. God will infallibly save His elect through election, justification, regeneration, and glorification. The only salvation with any uncertainty is gospel conversion to the full knowledge of the truth. The only reason why we are on Chriustians forums!

Gospel conversion is the educational process by which a person learns what Jesus has done for him and what he can in turn do for Jesus – it is a lifelong matter of conforming to Jesus Christ.


Paul further described in the verses that follow that they need salvation from ignorance to truth. Paul testified that elect Israel had a zeal of God but without correct knowledge for it (10:2). Their ignorance of God’s righteousness in Christ left them merely seeking for their own (10:3). With proper knowledge, they could learn that Jesus Christ fulfilled and ended the Law (10:4). Leaving the impossibility of justification by Law works, they could rest in Christ’s work (10:5). The gospel of Christ only benefits believers (1:16-17), and Paul sought this for elect Israel.

Most foolishly assume that the word save in any form must refer to deliverance from the lake of fire which is the second death ~ so they miss any distinction or difference from this one and only concept of salvation they see.

Yet the Bible has many references to salvation, which means deliverance, from things other than the lake of fire

It is the gospel that brings us the glad tidings and glorious news of salvation with many benefits. The gospel saves the elect from ignorance to truth by knowledge (2nd Timothy 1:10; Ephesians 4:13-14). The gospel saves the elect to personal assurance of eternal life (Ist. Thess 1:4-7; Ist John 5:13). The gospel saves the elect to knowing what God requires of them (Acts 10:6; Ist Corinthians 11:1-2). The gospel saves the elect to fellowship with God and men (Ist John 1:1-5; Phil. 1:3-5; 2:1-2). The gospel saves the elect from God’s judgment for sin (Hebrews 12:6-8; Ist Corinthians 11:29-31; Rev. 3:5). The gospel saves the elect to peace and soul rest (Matthew 11:28-30; Hebrews 4:7-11; Romans 15:13). The gospel saves the elect to prosperity and success in life (Prov 3:1-4; Ps 1:1-3; Matt 10:39), etc., etc.

The next 12 verses will be just one post~since the foundation has been laid.

 

[Red Baker]

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/what-is-regeneration.1425/page-11

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, do I need to go to Romans 10:1-13 again, and prove that the salvation under consideration is not salvation from sin and condemnation, but practical in nature only? It is very easy to prove this. I'll see where I have dealt with Romans 10 on this forum and post it here again. Maybe in the beginning of this thread, let me check this out.

What on earth do you mean by salvation being "practical in nature"? The entire Bible is focused on salvation form sin and eternal death. Jesus came to Earth for the express purpose of saving us from sin and eternal death. He is the Stone that was rejected but has become the Chief Cornerstone. He is the one being referenced at the end of Rom 9, and the same thought is carried over into Rom 10, and the salvation there mentioned. There can be no doubt or debate over the fact that the salvation under consideration is most certainly salvation from sin and eternal death/condemnation.

 

[Red Baker]

What on earth do you mean by salvation being "practical in nature"? The entire Bible is focused on salvation form sin and eternal death. Jesus came to Earth for the express purpose of saving us from sin and eternal death. He is the Stone that was rejected but has become the Chief Cornerstone. He is the one being referenced at the end of Rom 9, and the same thought is carried over into Rom 10, and the salvation there mentioned. There can be no doubt or debate over the fact that the salvation under consideration is most certainly salvation from sin and eternal death/condemnation.

When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation. He sends His Spirit into our hearts, and we cry “Abba, Father.” With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. We want to know more of what we can do to please Him, and we gratefully cherish all His promises, which give us comfort and peace now.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

 

[TomL]

Both of these men are liberal in their understand of Soteriology and I would even consider them very strong in their teachings. I had a set Albert Barnes' full commentaries and gave them all away. Once past 1800's most all men had begin to fall from the truth~and I have read behind many hundreds of them.

Of course they must be liberal because they do not agree with you. sic

 

[TomL]

Doug, do I need to go to Romans 10:1-13 again, and prove that the salvation under consideration is not salvation from sin and condemnation, but practical in nature only? It is very easy to prove this. I'll see where I have dealt with Romans 10 on this forum and post it here again. Maybe in the beginning of this thread, let me check this out.

Seems a very uncalvinistic passage

Romans 10:1–13 (KJV 1900) — 1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
and like you are in denial
Thou shalt be saved: From sin and hell. This is the doctrine of the gospel throughout; and all this shows that salvation by the gospel was easy.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Romans (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 227.

 

[Doug Brents]

When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

This is what some talk about in terms of our sins being forgiven at the cross. Yes, all the sin that is forgiven was paid for in the infinite offering the Jesus, the infinite God, made on the cross. But this does not account for the further applications of salvation listed below. It does not account for when this forgiveness is actually applied to an individual.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

This is the fulfillment of the Eternal Phase you mentioned above. God cannot overlook sin and still be just (which is one of His fundamental characteristics). Jesus came to take on the punishment that all men deserve, and to pay the price for the sin for all men of all time (not just the "elect" (1 John 2:2)).

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.

And Scripture is very clear about when and why this "phase" occurs. Rom 6:1-7 says distinctly that one dies to sin and receives new life in Christ during baptism. Col 2:11-14 says clearly that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection, during baptism. Rom 10:9-10 states clearly that a person's confession of Jesus as Lord results in his being saved. Acts 3:19 says that one's repentance leads to forgiveness. Acts 2:38 links both repentance and baptism with salvation. And there are many more. This is the point at which salvation is actually received by an individual.

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.

Absolutely true. This is the future day when this world (all of this creation) is destroyed, and a New Heaven (the first and second heavens) and New Earth are created, and into which we in our new bodies will spend eternity. But this will only be the new home for those who have received salvation in what you call the "vital phase". Everyone who has ever been conceived is part of the "eternal" and "legal" phases. But only those who receive the "vital" phase will be part of the "final" phase.

 

[TedT]

ImCo:
We were chosen as HIS elect before the foundation of the world:
Berean Standard Bible
Eph 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,…

If election to being predestined us for adoption as His sons does not mean to be saved, ie, never condemned for our sins, then it is nothing, a promise with no weight.
The moment of our being saved is found in this blessing given to us before the foundation of the world, before we chose to go astray.
As John 3:18
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
tells us, believers are never condemned but those who never believed are condemned already...already since the time the gift of election was given to the believers!

The cross, our rebirth and our sanctification to holiness are the method by which He fulfills HIS promise, the reality of our salvation to us, to believers. Isaiah 40:21 Do you not know? HAVE YOU NOT HEARD? HAS IT NOT BEEN TOLD YOU FROM THE BEGINNING? Have you not understood SINCE THE EARTH WAS FOUNDED?
Well, yes we have but thanks for reminding us as we have forgotten....

 

[Doug Brents]

As John 3:18
Berean Standard Bible
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
tells us, believers are never condemned but those who never believed are condemned already...already since the time the gift of election was given to the believers!

That is not what this verse means. If he was never condemned, then he never was dead, and so could not go from death to life. But all have sinned and fallen short, and so all have died spiritually. Thus all are condemned, and only in belief are they brought back form condemnation. Btu those who do not believe stand condemned (like the saved), but because they do not believe they do not go from death to life.

 

[Red Baker]

That is not what this verse means. If he was never condemned, then he never was dead, and so could not go from death to life. But all have sinned and fallen short, and so all have died spiritually. Thus all are condemned, and only in belief are they brought back form condemnation. Btu those who do not believe stand condemned (like the saved), but because they do not believe they do not go from death to life.

John 3:18​

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Jesus is declaring a biblical truth. It is very simple to follow. Those that believe are not under condemnation, all unbelievers are~and the the reason is given~because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. We must go else where to find out why some believe and some do not believe~and we do not need to travel very far in any direction!

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Sounds like Jesus was one of those cursed "high" Calvinist ~according to many.

Psalms 65:4​

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.”