Doctrine of Unconditional Election

When Were You Saved?​

This common question tries to pin eternal life down to some act at some point in time. Is this Biblical? Did the apostles ever ask this question? How would they answer such a question? Weren’t we all saved at the cross?​

Let’s ask Paul the question.​

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Can you believe it? Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation. And this is the key to understanding our wonderful salvation in Jesus Christ.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases.

It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more. We live in the perilous times of the last days, when men no longer want sound doctrine preached to them (II Tim 3:1 – 4:4). They prefer fables over truth, so the true doctrine of salvation has been almost lost from the earth.

Everyone talks about “getting saved,” but no one can explain it from the Bible. There are “invitations” and “decisions” and “methods” for salvation, but none of these words or ideas are from the Bible.

The ETERNAL PHASE is God’s plan and choice from eternity to allow sin into the world and to save His elect from it. Since He is eternal and sovereign, God planned in eternity all that He does in time. There are no surprises to God. He planned to allow sin, so that He could display His glorious grace in saving His elect from it and displaying His power and wrath on the rest.

The LEGAL PHASE is God’s work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago.

The VITAL PHASE is God’s application of these benefits to us personally and individually. Though He planned to save us from eternity and legally did so with Christ’s death on the cross, we still have a depraved and wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness. This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives.



The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future.
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

but one is saved, is being saved and will be saved
 
Pauls summary of Romans 9: Faith vs Works is what Paul is addressing in Romans 9. Gentiles ( non elect by faith ) Jews/Israel ( Gods elect,chosen) by works.

Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate ( the elect,chosen) is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

Romans 9:30–32 -30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21- 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23-19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Nope choice of a peoples for the service of God

Israel as opposed to Edom

Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.
 
Nope choice of a peoples for the service of God

Israel as opposed to Edom

Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Nope choice of a peoples for the service of God

Israel as opposed to Edom

Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.

you simply assume salvation
 
Nope choice of a peoples for the service of God

Israel as opposed to Edom

Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.

you simply assume salvation
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Well, maybe but as the story is told in Gen 25, we learn that the twins were trying to crush each other to pieces, the correct translation of the word ratsats into English, not jostled nor wrestled nor struggled (see Strong's H7533) because they wanted to be the first born, Gen 25:33, ie, they were both trying to murder their brother!

We either have a blatant contradiction, the children were being evil before birth, and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election. In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb)...not rejecting at all any works done pre-conception in the spiritual state where they learned all about the Hebrew laws of primogeniture and that they were to be born into Hebrew culture which caused them to be murderous in the womb.

Why this understanding of why they were fighting with sinful murderous intent has been lost over the ages is not known but as a learned Bible scholar Paul obviously knew that they were sinning in the womb so when he claims they were NOT sinners when they were elected, it must mean that they were elected before they were sinners sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, because they were sinners at the time of their conception and birth.
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Actually it was God electing who would be in the blood line of the Messiah - which WAS unconditional. God sovereignly chose who would be in Christ's bloodline - and by the way, many of them were never saved, but God still directed that Christ would come from them. God was not choosing who would be saved and who would be lost. Getting saved did have the condition of repentance and faith.
 
Actually it was God electing who would be in the blood line of the Messiah - which WAS unconditional. God sovereignly chose who would be in Christ's bloodline - and by the way, many of them were never saved, but God still directed that Christ would come from them. God was not choosing who would be saved and who would be lost. Getting saved did have the condition of repentance and faith.

While what you say may be true about God choosing Christ's bloodline, the context of that section of scripture points to this as the main message:

that the purpose of God according to election might stand
 
While what you say may be true about God choosing Christ's bloodline, the context of that section of scripture points to this as the main message:

that the purpose of God according to election might stand
Which was to bless all the familiies of the earth through this blood line

Righteousness is by faith

Romans 9:30–33 (UASV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

not unconditional selection
 
Righteousness is by faith

Romans 9:30–33 (UASV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Already answered in post #618 https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/doctrine-of-unconditional-election.1384/page-31
 
John 5:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

but one is saved, is being saved and will be saved
There's two more, but even if you cannot confess the eternal phrase, how in the world do you not see the legal phrase? Just a few verses:

  1. We were justified – made legally righteous before God – by His blood (Romans 5:9).
  2. We were reconciled – restored to friendly terms with God – by His death (Rom 5:10).
  3. We were accepted – received as favorable objects by God – by His death (Eph 1:6).
  4. We were adopted – purchased as sons from hell’s orphanage – by His death (Gal 4:5).
  5. We were redeemed – bought back from just condemnation – by His death (I Pet 1:18).
  6. We were washed – our sins purged away in God’s sight – by His blood (Rev 1:5).
  7. We were sanctified – made formally holy before God – by His death (Hebrews 10:10).
  8. He became our atonement – sacrificial gift of appeasement – by His death (Rom 5:11).
  9. He became our propitiation – sacrificial gift of appeasement – by death (Romans 3:25).
  10. Some places have several aspects of His death’s profit (Rom 8:29-30; I Cor 1:30; 6:11)
  11. And the pleasure of the Lord, salvation of His elect, prospered in His hand (Is 53:10).
  12. It was a representative death of the representative for his constituents (Rom 5:12-19).
  13. Our Lord Jesus went to His crucifixion death as a meek Lamb to the slaughter for his people. (Is 53:7).
  14. God's elect were crucified with Christ, died with him. and arose from the dead with him~all legally. Galatians 2:20; Ephesians 2:4,5; Romans 5, etc.
These are just a few of many that could be given. We also have many concerning eternal phrase, like to see them?
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also election to Salvation is of grace which makes it unconditional Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works[conditions, requirements]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
Well, maybe but as the story is told in Gen 25, we learn that the twins were trying to crush each other to pieces, the correct translation of the word ratsats into English, not jostled nor wrestled nor struggled (see Strong's H7533) because they wanted to be the first born, Gen 25:33, ie, they were both trying to murder their brother!

We either have a blatant contradiction, the children were being evil before birth, and must dismiss Paul's works theology as being somewhat amiss, or we have to admit that the Pauline definition of works does not exclude pre-birth works from being a part of the basis of our election. In fact, by his omission of their pre-birth works in those works that are excluded as being a part of the basis of our election, he must be inferring that some pre-birth works have something to do with it. To say this all another way, what we have here in Romans is a classic example of a Scripture with some missing words, that is, what Paul is really saying is, neither having done any good or evil (works on the post-birth side of the womb) that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works (done on the post-birth side of the womb) but of HIM that calleth (when one is on the post-birth side of the womb)...not rejecting at all any works done pre-conception in the spiritual state where they learned all about the Hebrew laws of primogeniture and that they were to be born into Hebrew culture which caused them to be murderous in the womb.

Why this understanding of why they were fighting with sinful murderous intent has been lost over the ages is not known but as a learned Bible scholar Paul obviously knew that they were sinning in the womb so when he claims they were NOT sinners when they were elected, it must mean that they were elected before they were sinners sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, because they were sinners at the time of their conception and birth.
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also this statement that election in Salvation is of Grace is a witness that its unconditional Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works[conditions/requirements]: otherwise grace is no more grace.
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
 
Actually it was God electing who would be in the blood line of the Messiah - which WAS unconditional. God sovereignly chose who would be in Christ's bloodline - and by the way, many of them were never saved, but God still directed that Christ would come from them. God was not choosing who would be saved and who would be lost. Getting saved did have the condition of repentance and faith.
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Paul in Romans 9 was not referring to personal salvation but rather it was Election to Vocation, Not Salvation

 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Also election to Salvation is of grace which makes it unconditional Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works[conditions, requirements]: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
https://berean-apologetics.communit...ine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-75951
 
Paul in Romans 9 was not referring to personal salvation but rather it was Election to Vocation, Not Salvation

Let us look at Romans nine and test your understanding. Starting at 9:10.

Verse 10​

“And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;”

Not only in the case of Isaac was the election limited to him "as the son of promise", but also in a still more remarkable instance was this truth indicated in the case of the two sons of Isaac. They were conceived by Rebecca of the same husband, yet God chose the one and rejected the other. An original difference between Isaac and Ishmael might be alleged, since the one was born of the lawful wife of Abraham, the free woman, and the other was the son of the bond woman; but in the case now brought forward there existed no original difference. Both were sons of the same father and mother, and both were born at the same time. The great distinction, then, made between the two brothers could only be traced to the sovereign will of God, who thus visibly notified, long before the event, the difference of the Divine purpose, according to election of grace towards the people of Israel.

Verse 11​

(For the children being not yet born, neither have done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth)

In the case of Isaac and Ishmael, it might still be said, that as the latter, as soon as he came to years, gave evidence of a wicked disposition, this was a sufficient reason for preferring Isaac. But here, in a parenthesis the Apostle shows that the preference was given to Jacob independently of all ground of merit, because it was made before the children were capable of doing either good or evil. This was done for the very purpose of taking away all pretense for merit as a ground of preference. Had the preference been given to Jacob when he had grown up to maturity, there would have been no more real ground for ascribing it to anything good in him; yet that use would have been made of it by the perverse ingenuity of man. But God made the preference before the children were born.

“That the purpose of God according to election might stand” ~ This was the very end and intention of the early indication of the will of God to Rebecca, the mother of the two children. ( what was said in Genesis 25 to Rebekah is here interpreted for us by Paul...Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger. Please take note Tom and all others!) It was hereby clearly established that, in choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God had respect to nothing but His own purpose. Than this what can more strongly declare His own eternal purpose to be the ground of all His favor to man?

“Not of works but of Him that calleth” ~ Expressions indicating God’s sovereignty in this matter are heaped upon one another, because it is a thing so offensive to the human mind. Yet, after all the Apostle’s precaution, the perverseness of men still finds ground of boasting on account of works. Though the children had done neither good nor evil, yet God, it is supposed, might foresee that Jacob would be a godly man, and Esau wicked. But had not God made a difference between Jacob and Esau, Jacob would have been no better than his brother. Were not men blinded by opposition to this part of the will of God, would they not perceive that a preference on account of foreseen good works is a preference on account of works, and therefore expressly contrary to the assertion of the Apostle — Not of works, but of Him that calleth? The whole ground of preference is in Him that calleth, or chooseth, not in him that is called.

Paul, says a man of God in the past "had hitherto merely observed, in a few words, the difference between the carnal sons of Abraham; namely, though all by circumcision were made partakers of the covenant, yet the grace of God was not equally efficacious in all, and the sons of the promise enjoy the blessings of the Most High. He now plainly refers the whole cause to the gratuitous election of God, which in no respects depends on men, so that nothing can be traced in the salvation of believers higher than the goodness of God; nothing in the destruction of the reprobate can be discovered higher than the just severity of the Sovereign of the world. The first proposition of the Apostle is the following: — As the blessing of the covenant separates the nation of the Israelites from all other people, so the election of God separates the men of that nation, while He predestinates some to salvation, others to eternal damnation. The second proposition is, that there is no other foundation of election than the mere goodness and mercy of God, which embrace whom He chooses, without paying the least regard to works, even after the fall of Adam. Third, the Lord in His gratuitous election is free and unrestrained by the necessity of bestowing the same grace equally on all; He passes by such as He wills, and chooses for His own according to His will. Paul briefly comprehends all these propositions in one clause, and will afterwards consider other points. The following words, when they were not yet born, neither had done any good or evil, show that God, in making the difference between them, could have paid no regard to their works, which did not yet exist. Aremians, who state that God may elect from among mankind by a respect to their works, since He foresees from their future conduct who may be worthy or deserving of grace, attack a principle of theology which no Christian ought to be ignorant of; namely, that God can regard nothing in the corrupt nature of man, such as that of Jacob and Esau was, by which He may be induced to do them kindness. When, therefore, Paul says that neither of the children had done any good or evil, we must add also the opinion which he had already formed in his mind, of their both being children of Adam, sinners by nature, not possessed of a single particle of righteousness. Besides, although the vicious and depraved nature, which is diffused through the whole human race, be of itself sufficient to cause damnation before it has shown its unholiness by any act or deed, and Esau therefore deserved to be rejected, because he was by nature a child of wrath, yet to prevent the least difficulty, as if the state of the elder was worse with respect to the perpetration of any offense or vice than that of the younger, it was necessary for the Apostle to exclude the consideration both of transgressions and of virtues. I confess, indeed, that it is true that the near cause of reprobation is our being all cursed in Adam; but Paul withdraws us in the meantime from this consideration, that we may learn to rest in the naked and simple good pleasure of God, until he shall have established this doctrine, that the infinite Sovereign has a sufficiently just cause for election and reprobation, in His own will. He here urges, in almost every word, the gratuitous election of God; for had he considered works to have any place in our election, he would have stated the remuneration due to their performance. But he opposes to works the purpose of God, which consists in the good pleasure of His will. And to remove all doubts and controversy concerning the subject, he adds, according to election, and closes in a striking manner,~ not of works, but of Him that calleth. The opinion, therefore, that God elects or reprobates every one according as He foresees good or evil in us, is false, and contrary to the word of eternal truth."

Verse 12​

“It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.”
Later...RB
 
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