Doctrine of Unconditional Election

I'll allow the gentleman you posted to to answer first, and then I will prove t5he language of Romans nine can only be applied to salvation from sin and condemnation.

We shall see who can read context and who are very biased in protecting their false gospel.
You provided nothing to support your view

Salvation is not mentioned there, you just assume it.

But the birthright - the service of God which is view. The selection of Israel as opposed to Edom for the task

Romans 9:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
is a reference to



Genesis 25:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, And two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; And the one people shall be stronger than the other people; And the elder shall serve the younger.
and


Romans 9:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

is stated about 1000 years after the death of Jacob and Esau at

Malachi 1:1–4 (KJV 1900) — 1 THE burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: Yet I loved Jacob, 3 And I hated Esau, And laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, But we will return and build the desolate places; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; And they shall call them, The border of wickedness, And, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
 
At

At least my post has scriptural rhetoric supporting my understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Rhetoric is the art of using language (scriptural in this case) which is designed to motivate, persuade, or inform.

I have several times over. Tom, if salvation from sin and condemnation is not 100% unconditional, then the so-called grace being preached ceases to be the true grace of God wherein the very elect stand.

Election of grace took place before the foundation of the world, which excludes all works on man's part ~ the whole family of God was elected TOGETHER AS ONE BODY, there grace was freely given to us in Christ.


Two great apostles teaching the same truth, a truth that you desipe and reject. You might want to reconsider your understanding of this truth of the word of God. I do not expect you will, and you will not, unless God opens your understanding. With God, all things are possible.
Sorry, that is but an assumption

One that is contradicted by Paul

Romans 4:1–16 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
You fail to deal with scripture

Sorry scripture refuted you

Scripture refutes you

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

it is clearly conditional

and because that is so, your doctrine is unbiblical
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
Let us test your understanding with God's word.

This is a further description or characteristic of God’s people. They are called not merely outwardly by the preaching of the Gospel, for this is common to them with unbelievers, but called also by the Spirit, with an internal and effectual calling, and made willing in the day of God’s power. They are called according to God’s eternal purpose, according to which He knew them, and purposed their calling before they were in existence; for all God’s purposes are eternal. It imports that their calling is solely the effect of grace; for when it is said to be a calling according to God’s purpose, it is distinguished from a calling according to works.

You are so wrong thinking the calling of the children of God's promises was determined by their faithfulness to him, that is totally twisting the scriptures around attempting to make them say what you desire for them to say to try to convince others of your false gospel, based upon man's works.

For whom.

The coordinating conjunction for shows this verse explains his purpose
for the called (8:28). Our sonship (8:14), future glory (8:17), and future adoption (8:23) are by God’s purpose. Eternal glory in heaven is not by possibility, proposal, proposition, provision, or appeal. His purpose is exalted above all other aspects (Rom 9:11,17; Eph 1:11; 3:11; II Tim 1:9).

Foreknowledge does not lead to God’s purpose, but rather God’s purpose to foreknowledge! God’s purpose begins in foreknowledge, which is beyond omniscience; it is love beforehand! The Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, not what He foreknew.

To know in the Bible has another sense different from bare knowledge, one of special affection, approval, benevolence, and design (Gen 4:1; Psalm 1:6; Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2). He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matt 7:23; Ps 5:5; 11:5). He loved His elect from everlasting, and He always shall (Jeremiah 31:3; Eph 1:4; 5:25). These are the elect that Paul will identify by the same root in a future chapter (Rom 11:2). God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Eph 1:3-6).
I find it interesting that what you quote here completely skips the next phrase. "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters". God's purpose did not change because of whom He foreknew or didn't. Look at Matt 7:21-23 again. "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; leave Me, you who practice lawlessness.’" What does this passage say about why God foreknew, or in this case did not foreknow, these people? These people thought they had done His will, and had worked hard for Him. But He didn't know them because they had not done the will of the Father. Notice all through Scripture that there is a consistent if/then to salvation. If you do this, then I will save you. If you repent, then I will forgive. If you believe, then you will be saved. If you confess me, then I will confess you. While His love is unconditional, His salvation is clearly conditional.
He also did predestinate.

God’s purpose toward His elect builds from affectionate foreknowledge to predestination. It is not our choice to believe predestination or not. It is a Bible doctrine by revelation.

What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand. In this particular context the destination is glorification in heaven as the sons of God. In the other uses of the word, it is also our adoption and inheritance as sons (Eph 1:5,11).

Man is so arrogant that he assumes he has the right to make all choices of heaven or the lake of fire, though he forfeited them in Eden and all other life aspects are by a choice made for him! Man in Eden and every day chooses his future destiny – the lake of fire.

Arminians have God predestinating men to destruction just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass? If God knew who would not believe on Christ and be saved, why in the world did He create them knowing this certain outcome? He predestinated them to damnation.

But the Arminian confuses things horrifically by having God frustrated, trying to save them, and loving them as much as those in heaven. How is this love by a perfect Being? Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election!
Yes, predestination exists. Clearly, for it is a Biblical concept. But you have it backwards. God, the potter, certainly has the power and authority to make something of noble use and something for common use from the same lump of clay, but that passage does not say that He does so. God made His creation with a mind and will of its own. And as such, He gives it, us, the ability to choose right and wrong, good and evil, and to bear the consequences of those choices in our own soul. God is not frustrated by our sin, nor is He thwarted by our will. He loves every single person who has ever been born, but that won't stop Him from sending those who don't love Him back to Hell.
When God viewed man, He saw no man seeking Him or doing righteousness (Ps 14:1-3).
The fact that none did seek Him does not mean that they could not seek Him. Psalms is a very bad place from which to get foundational doctrinal statements. Notice that in Paul's speech to the Athenians in Acts 17, the people of Athens were seeking God. They had many gods, and even an alter/idol to "the unknown God". They were seeking Him, but they did not know who His is, or how to find Him. And that is what Paul taught them: how to find the ONE True God.
 
Explain "I never knew you". According to you, that must mean, "I never knew you'd would be faithful".

And see above @Red Baker "for whom". That tells you it's knowing the person, not knowing about the person.
Indeed it does say that He knew us, not just knew about us. That speaks of relationship, and relationship is two directional. God knew from before the beginning who would love Him back, who would trust Him, who would obey Him. These He predestined to receive His Gospel and to be transformed by it from the dead of the world to life in Christ.

Remember Rev 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." This is also relationship language. Jesus stands outside and knocks. IF someone will hear Him, open the door, and invite Him in, THEN He will come in, and the two will eat and drink together. But Jesus will not knock the door down and force His way inside. There would be no relationship in such a case. The person would feel invaded, trampled, and put upon. Jesus wants those who want Him.
 
Remember Rev 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me." This is also relationship language. Jesus stands outside and knocks. IF someone will hear Him, open the door, and invite Him in, THEN He will come in, and the two will eat and drink together. But Jesus will not knock the door down and force His way inside. There would be no relationship in such a case. The person would feel invaded, trampled, and put upon. Jesus wants those who want Him.
Remember? It would be nice if you folks would remember context, it would save you from embarrassment. First,

The Context​

A text without its context is a pretext – an excuse, pretence, or specious plea to sell false doctrine. This verse, used as an invitational text by millions, was never intended to offer eternal life to sinners.

This church was a lukewarm, self-assured, self-satisfied, self-righteous, complacent, confident, religious church like American Christianity in 2024. They had religion, but lacked the power to worship God in spirit and in truth.. They had a form of godliness without power, just as the perilous times of our day (2nd Timothy 3:1-5). They went through all the motions and rituals of religion with contentment, ignoring the relationship. The church had a clear spiritual problem, being confident of itself, while God saw them miserable!

Jesus knew their works – they had form, ritual, religion – but He did not accept lack of zeal (3:15). Their lukewarm, superficial, and ritualistic formality of religion was disgusting and revolting (3:16). Secondly....

The text

WAS addressed to the professed saved members of a church that needed spiritual growth~not to gang leaders in west LA.

Jesus does not knock at the heart’s door of sinners. He never has, and he never will. When He wants to save a man, He calls him to eternal life by His life-giving voice (John 5:25). Sinners can no more resist than did Lazarus (John 11:43-44) or will all dead bodies in the last day (John 5:28-29). If He asked sinners to open, no man would be saved (Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9- 18). He forcibly and sovereignly regenerates sinners by His own power (John 1:13; 3:8; 5:21). The great God does not ask or beg sinners to cooperate with Him: He raises them from spiritual death with the same resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1).

Third, again, the words in this verse are for the church at Laodicea, not sinners in Washington Park Chicago . (Rev 3:14-22). The words were for those with ears to hear, not those needing ears (John 8:43,47). This section of Revelation has the words of Jesus Christ to the angels of seven churches of Asia. The church of the Laodiceans was self-confident and self-righteous. Jesus rebuked them for their lukewarm condition and haughty spirit, and He described them as being spiritually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked! They needed a personal relationship with Him for true spiritual riches.

Fourth, the benefit offered by Jesus in the verse is fellowship, not salvation from perishing. The Lord Jesus Christ offered the members of this church His personal presence for spiritual communion and fellowship, not regeneration or justification. These saints were already saved from destruction as much as they could be; but they were living a miserable existence without a personal relationship with Christ. This offer was the fellowship and joy that John described elsewhere (Ist John 1:1-10).

Men corrupted God’s word in Paul’s day (2nd Cor 2:17). And they corrupt Revelation 3:20 today to present Satan’s Jesus and defraud saints of spiritual vitality. If you are one of God’s elect, which is easily known by faith and good works (2nd Thess 1:2-4; 2nd Pet 1:5-11), then this verse is a precious offer of personal communion with Jesus Christ (John 14:21,23). Humble yourself before Him; beg for His presence in your life; He will bless you by His Spirit (Eph 3:14-19).
 
Remember? It would be nice if you folks would remember context, it would save you from embarrassment. First,

The Context​

A text without its context is a pretext – an excuse, pretence, or specious plea to sell false doctrine. This verse, used as an invitational text by millions, was never intended to offer eternal life to sinners.

This church was a lukewarm, self-assured, self-satisfied, self-righteous, complacent, confident, religious church like American Christianity in 2024. They had religion, but lacked the power to worship God in spirit and in truth.. They had a form of godliness without power, just as the perilous times of our day (2nd Timothy 3:1-5). They went through all the motions and rituals of religion with contentment, ignoring the relationship. The church had a clear spiritual problem, being confident of itself, while God saw them miserable!

Jesus knew their works – they had form, ritual, religion – but He did not accept lack of zeal (3:15). Their lukewarm, superficial, and ritualistic formality of religion was disgusting and revolting (3:16).
None of that is up for debate, and it is totally irrelevant as an argument against the fact that Jesus told them that if they open the door for Him, He would come in and eat with them, and they with Him, and by extension that applies to us as well.
Secondly....

The text

WAS addressed to the professed saved members of a church that needed spiritual growth~not to gang leaders in west LA.
You just said that these were not really saved. There is no difference between "gang leaders in west LA" and "professed" members of the Church. You can say you are saved all day long, but if Jesus doesn't know you, then your eternal destiny hasn't changed.
Jesus does not knock at the heart’s door of sinners. He never has, and he never will. When He wants to save a man, He calls him to eternal life by His life-giving voice (John 5:25). Sinners can no more resist than did Lazarus (John 11:43-44) or will all dead bodies in the last day (John 5:28-29). If He asked sinners to open, no man would be saved (Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9- 18). He forcibly and sovereignly regenerates sinners by His own power (John 1:13; 3:8; 5:21). The great God does not ask or beg sinners to cooperate with Him: He raises them from spiritual death with the same resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead (Eph 1:19-20; 2:1).
I am not debating His power; certainly He has the power to save and to resurrect. The question is not does He have the power. The question is what does He say He does.
Third, again, the words in this verse are for the church at Laodicea, not sinners in Washington Park Chicago . (Rev 3:14-22). The words were for those with ears to hear, not those needing ears (John 8:43,47). This section of Revelation has the words of Jesus Christ to the angels of seven churches of Asia. The church of the Laodiceans was self-confident and self-righteous. Jesus rebuked them for their lukewarm condition and haughty spirit, and He described them as being spiritually wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked! They needed a personal relationship with Him for true spiritual riches.
All of Revelation is to all of the Church, everywhere for all time. Those who have ears to hear (as is required to understand any of God's parables in Scripture) can hear.
Fourth, the benefit offered by Jesus in the verse is fellowship, not salvation from perishing. The Lord Jesus Christ offered the members of this church His personal presence for spiritual communion and fellowship, not regeneration or justification. These saints were already saved from destruction as much as they could be; but they were living a miserable existence without a personal relationship with Christ. This offer was the fellowship and joy that John described elsewhere (Ist John 1:1-10).

Men corrupted God’s word in Paul’s day (2nd Cor 2:17). And they corrupt Revelation 3:20 today to present Satan’s Jesus and defraud saints of spiritual vitality. If you are one of God’s elect, which is easily known by faith and good works (2nd Thess 1:2-4; 2nd Pet 1:5-11), then this verse is a precious offer of personal communion with Jesus Christ (John 14:21,23). Humble yourself before Him; beg for His presence in your life; He will bless you by His Spirit (Eph 3:14-19).
Salvation from perishing IS relationship with Jesus. Without the relationship with Jesus one is not saved.
 
God knew from before the beginning who would love Him back, who would trust Him, who would obey Him. These He predestined to receive His Gospel and to be transformed by it from the dead of the world to life in Christ.
This is not about what God knew~for his knowledge is infinite, and cannot be measure or sought out. We have proven above what God saw as he looked down from heaven upon the children of men. Actually, not that he even needed to looked, he alone is perfect in all of his ways, no created being can have the same infinite attributes as God, impossible.

That alone cause him to have an election of grace, among both angels and man, in order to preserve some to know and worship this infinite Being~without God having this election none would, and this is proven by the fact of the fallen angels. even the prince among them, Satan himself. The glory in which he was created with was not enough to secure him from not falling and leaving his first estate. It may even actually enable him to wanted to be like the Most High when left to his own wisdom and glory that God created him with, and no doubt thought he could be!

To teach that some would on their own, come to love and obey God denys so many precious doctrines of the word of God. The one above all others is that it rejects the need for the life, and death, and resurrection of the Son of God.
Paul magnified God’s grace in salvation and allowed nothing else to be added to it, especially the Law of Moses; for grace plus anything on our part is frustrated grace (Rom 11:6). Here is Paul’s concluding statement to Peter about mixing grace and law for righteousness. There is no mixing of the Law and Christ, otherwise Christ’s death accomplished nothing. The same argument applies against Arminians, who make Christ’s death of no effect unless you accept, believe, call on, invite in, or otherwise save yourself by decisional regeneration, and with you by adding water baptism.
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context
 
No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
its nations they represent in the passage. Jacob was the one in who's lineage would bring forth the promised Messiah. The seed in Christ not individual. One becomes in Christ the promised seed when they believe- not from being elect or predestined. Your view makes the gospel obsolete and the atonement too.

hope this helps !!!
 
its nations they represent in the passage. Jacob was the one in who's lineage would bring forth the promised Messiah. The seed in Christ not individual. One becomes in Christ the promised seed when they believe- not from being elect or predestined. Your view makes the gospel obsolete and the atonement too.

hope this helps !!!
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context
 
No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context
Ditto
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Why do you ignore the fact

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

righteousness is through faith not unconditional
 
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

If not that, then this should put to rest any idea that Salvation is conditional:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

If the Father gives you to Jesus, you WILL come to Jesus and Jesus WILL accept you. No exceptions. No condition on your part.
 
If not that, then this should put to rest any idea that Salvation is conditional:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

If the Father gives you to Jesus, you WILL come to Jesus and Jesus WILL accept you. No exceptions. No condition on your part.
Sorry salvation is not mentioned in that Romans verse and that idea is contrary to the summary statement

Romans 11:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And the father gives to Christ those that are his

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

not men unconditionally chosen

not men totally indisposed to God
 
Why do you ignore the fact

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

righteousness is through faith not unconditional
Let us consider these scriptures. Accept my apologies for being a little long.

9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.​

What shall we say then?​

Paul brought this section of his argument about election in Israel to an intermediate conclusion, with this common rhetorical question of his (4:1; 6:1; 7:7; 9:14). In this chapter he declared election and reprobation in Israel (9:6), illustrated it by the patriarchs’ families (9:7-13), proved it by theology (9:14-24), and proved it by their O.T. scriptures (9:25-29). He included Gentiles in 9:24, but they are not the main theme of these three chapters, and it should be recalled they were included from the beginning (Rom 1:13-16; 2:17-29; 3:29-30; 4:9-17; etc.). However, to further exacerbate Israel’s situation and make a comparison, he mentioned them in this verse to identify a difficult thing ~ their reception of the gospel against Israel’s rejection of it. Here is the first mention of the gospel in this chapter and the response to it by Gentiles and Israel. The gospel, justification, righteousness, and faith were dealt with thoroughly already (chaps. 3-5). Paul here mentioned to his readers ~ Gentiles showed a better response to the gospel. As Gentiles, we should rejoice and be bound to give thanks for God’s salvation of us (2nd The 2:13). There are two aspects to our reception of the gospel in this letter to those called to be saints in Rome: election and no superstition about the Law.

That the Gentiles.​


Having mentioned Gentiles in 9:24, he described them first and fast here, then pursued Israel again. We reject any assumption Paul referred to Gentiles in 9:25-26. It should be obvious only some of the Gentiles are under consideration though not expressly stated. Not all Gentiles had attained to righteousness; in fact, only a very small portion of them had~whom God had called. Paul did not clarify this point, so it is our duty to rightly divide the word of truth (2nd Tim 2:15). The only Gentiles he had in mind were those identified earlier, the elect of the Gentiles (9:24). Let this point be clear – Paul’s argument involved only the elect vessels of mercy of Gentiles. The use of Gentiles must be understood as a class of people with emphasis on the elect only. Not all of the Gentiles were either saved legally or converted practically by the gospel. To keep to Paul’s main argument for chapters 9-11, we view the Gentiles here as a parenthesis. There is no new thought here regarding Gentiles, for Paul had already shown them justified by faith, for they had more similarity to Abraham than did the Jews themselves (Rom 4:9-17)! There is no new thought here about Gentiles, for Paul had already declared (a point the Romans knew well) about many Gentile conversions (Rom 1:13-16; 2:17-29; 3:29; 4:9-17; 9:24). We should keep this class distinction in mind, for we must rightly identify the Israel that follows.

Which followed not after righteousness.​

Gentiles were born outside God’s nation of Israel and had no relationship to God or His worship, not even in outward form or ceremonial ritual, for God righteously left us in own dark ignorance. The nature and conduct of Gentiles is clearly described by Paul in the first chapter (Rom 1:18-32). It is hard to imagine a people more ignorant and rebellious of God and worship than our ancestors.

Have attained to righteousness.​

God does not justify Gentiles or anyone else because of their faith any more than because of works. The Bible, especially Pauline arguments, describes justification by faith. Why? Because Paul had to combat Jewish legalism everywhere he went, so the language is faith versus law works. When Jewish legalism is not a pressing concern, but rather carnal Christianity, justification by works is what the Bible teaches, as James mocked justification merely by faith (James 2:14-26).

Paul dealt with justification and righteousness by faith (chaps. 3-5). The full truth of the matter is that justification must be seen in five phases/senses to be fully scriptural. In chapters 3-5, which reconcile the role of Christ, faith, and works.

Attaining righteousness by faith indicates to us that practical justification is the righteousness here. SInce it is true, that no one, Gentile or Israelite, can attain legal righteousness by their nature or effort (3:9-20).

So, only practical justification is by human faith: legal justification is by Jesus alone; He is the Second Adam and made us righteous by representation, just as Adam made us sinners in like manner. (5:12-19). Please consider and ponder:
Practical justification is our evidence and proof of righteousness to God, men, and ourselves by the Bible-defined marks of a righteous man ~ faith in God and works following to prove it.

For more about this distinction, see this 1647 work by Samuel Richardson, a Baptist pastor of the first London Confession of faith. The best articles ever written since the apostles as far as I'm concerned. Google Samuel Richardson Justification by faith. John Brine is another great defender of this truth. during the seventeen hundreds.

We reject Reformed doctrine and its obsessive use of sola fide, for it neglects or rejects James and other important issues at stake.

We are not Calvinists or Arminians~another subject for another day. The last thing taught here or in the next verses is any plan of legal justification by gospel means. The preceding context entirely annihilated any such thought by God’s own choice (9:14-24)! It is all of God’s will, and only God’s will, that disposes of His mercy and compassion (9:15)! Man’s will or efforts have nothing to do with obtaining God’s mercy in justification (9:16) in a legal sense! God hardens men in rebellion against Him as part of His disposing sovereign choice (9:17-18)! Men do not have the right to even question His rule, no matter how it seems to them (9:19-20)! Men are but clay in His sovereign hands to be made vessels of honor or dishonor (9:21)! And this choice of the Potter is clearly the determining factor in eternal destiny (9:22-24)!

Even the righteousness which is of faith.​

This name for justification, the righteousness which is of faith, is practical justification of the elect. Faith is the evidence and proof of righteousness, which God gave to the elect by Jesus Christ. Of course, faith without works is proof of nothing but a devil’s faith, thus says James 2:14-26. This subject has been dealt with thoroughly already by Paul 3:21 – 5:21.

How in the world did this miraculous distinction occur between the Gentiles and the Israelites? It is entirely contrary to the heritage of both classes, for one had God and the other did not. As Paul had taught to this point from 8:28, the doctrine of election entirely made the difference.

When a large scale conversion of Gentiles too place, God’s election was the basis (Acts 13:48). Mercy or compassion to any man, whether Gentile or Jew, is entirely by God’s will (9:15-18). In God’s eternal counsel, He elected only some of the Jews and some of the Gentiles (9:21-24). After election, God opened the minds of Gentiles, who were not superstitious about the Law.

9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.​

But Israel.​

After identifying Gentiles first and fast, Paul quickly returned to his primary argument – Israel.

Recall the class distinction of Gentile elect (9:30), for Israel here is used as a class for Israel’s elect. The previous verse, setting up this verse, used a class name for only the elect within the class. We believe the same right here – for this contextual reason and others reasons in the context.

As with Gentiles in 9:30, we rightly divide the word of truth to use a class name for the elect. The Israel here is elect Israel, though identified merely by its class distinction from the Gentiles. The opening verse in this section (9:30) used a class name for only the elect within the class. Paul had distinguished elect Israel from merely national Israel from his opening argument (9:6). He had concluded his summary of God’s electing/reprobating will with only some Jews (9:24). He had shown from the scriptures that a national discrimination had occurred before (9:25-29). Paul opened the tenth chapter with a prayer for Israel’s salvation, which we believe for reasons in that place must be limited to elect Israel (2nd Tim 2:10), lest he be found to fight against God! Paul did not pray or labor for God’s mercy and compassion on those He had chosen to reject.

Which followed after the law of righteousness.​

Israel as a class distinct from Gentiles had an inspired religious system of ritual worship to God. Moses’ law, which ostensibly was their plan of justification, was merely a schoolteacher of Christ~even though hidden from many of them. From a class standpoint, and from outward compliance, Israel pursued justification with God. As shown in the previous point about the identity of Israel, we believe elect Israel pursuing God. These are God’s elect seeking justification and righteousness by the Law and missing the blessings in Jesus Christ. Much like many on Christians forum and particularly here since this is where we are now posting.

Hath not attained to the law of righteousness.​

Paul concluded of elect Israel as a class distinct from Gentiles – they had not attained blessings of knowing the doctrine of free justification. justification. The justification Paul had in mind here is practical justification by faith in Jesus’ finished work. He explained in the next chapter that faith in Christ saves a Jew from hopeless Law works (10:3-5). Why did elect Israel miss practical justification? Because they were still in love with Moses’ Law. Like many are in love with their own precious works that they think is the means of their legal justification.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;​

Wherefore?​

Here is another rhetorical question, and rightly so for this contradictory Gentile-Israel situation. Why did elect Israel miss practical justification? Because they were still in love with Moses’ Law! As I say before, as many are in love with their own works of the flesh. It was hard to wean even converted Jews from it (Acts 21:20).

Because they sought it not by faith.​

Many of elect Israel did not believe on Jesus Christ’s finished work out of superstition to the Law. They did not believe Jesus of Nazareth, the accused devil-possessed enemy of the Jews’ religion. Though there is much more than faith for practical justification, it begins with faith in Jesus Christ alone for free justification. Though there is much more than faith for practical justification, Paul set faith over against the Law.

But as it were by the works of the law.​

Though the gospel was sent first to the Jews, the majority rejected it, even those of elect Israel. They were faithful and loyal to the tradition of the elders and missed the prophecies of Jesus Christ. Armenians on Christian forums take confidence in their faith/works, the Jews took confidence in Abraham or Moses or both!

For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.​

Why did they reject the ministry of John, Jesus, and the apostles with all their attendant proofs? Because Jesus of Nazareth did not fit their idea of the Messiah they had planned on all their lives. They stumbled, tripped, and fell over a poor carpenter’s son killed by Rome as their Christ! They sought a handsome, charismatic leader like David to defeat Rome and restore greatness! God was not surprised by this response to His Son, for He had purposed it from the very beginning.

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

As it is written.​

God was not surprised by this response to His Son, for He had purposed it from the very beginning. In fact, the Old Testament scripture plainly prophesied that He would cause great division in Israel. Paul quoted from Isaiah 28:16 and 8:14 to form the combination that follows showing this division. Peter also used very similar wording from these texts and Psalm 118:22 as well in Ist Peter 2:6-8.

Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence.​

Sion, or Zion, was one of the mountains making up Jerusalem and often the name for the city. Jesus of Nazareth was disappointing and offensive as the prophets had foretold (Isaiah 53:2) The poverty in reputation and wealth of his parents offended Jews (Luke 2:34-35; Matt 13:54-58). Paul explained very clearly that only called Jews could see God’s blessing in Jesus (Ist Cor 1:22-24). Observe that Peter assigned the stumbling over Jesus Christ to God’s appointment (Ist Peter 2:8).

And whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

Though lacking outward attraction, faith would not be disappointed or shame a man (Rom 10:11). Peter sheds further light on this part of the prophecy and gospel by using confounded (Ist Peter 2:6). Faith, and the things added to faith, when practiced diligently prove one’s election (2nd Pet 1:5-11).

Reader, whether Gentile or Jew, do you find Jesus Christ your all in all as far as free justification by his faith and obedience, or, do still believe man can and must do this, that or the others. ?
 
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This is not about what God knew~for his knowledge is infinite, and cannot be measure or sought out. We have proven above what God saw as he looked down from heaven upon the children of men. Actually, not that he even needed to looked, he alone is perfect in all of his ways, no created being can have the same infinite attributes as God, impossible.

That alone cause him to have an election of grace, among both angels and man, in order to preserve some to know and worship this infinite Being~without God having this election none would, and this is proven by the fact of the fallen angels. even the prince among them, Satan himself. The glory in which he was created with was not enough to secure him from not falling and leaving his first estate. It may even actually enable him to wanted to be like the Most High when left to his own wisdom and glory that God created him with, and no doubt thought he could be!

To teach that some would on their own, come to love and obey God denys so many precious doctrines of the word of God. The one above all others is that it rejects the need for the life, and death, and resurrection of the Son of God.
The understanding that man must seek God does not in any way reject the need for the life, death, and resurrection of the Son of God. Without Jesus' death there would have been no hope, no matter how much we sought God. We could have been standing directly in front of Him and holding onto His hand, but without Christ there would have been no salvation. But we can seek Him, we were created to seek Him, and many have and still do seek Him. The fact that in Psalms, songs which contain much hyperbole, we find the comment that "none seek Him" does not mean that none CAN seek Him.
Paul magnified God’s grace in salvation and allowed nothing else to be added to it, especially the Law of Moses; for grace plus anything on our part is frustrated grace (Rom 11:6). Here is Paul’s concluding statement to Peter about mixing grace and law for righteousness. There is no mixing of the Law and Christ, otherwise Christ’s death accomplished nothing. The same argument applies against Arminians, who make Christ’s death of no effect unless you accept, believe, call on, invite in, or otherwise save yourself by decisional regeneration, and with you by adding water baptism.
That is a false argument, for it is not I who sets conditions upon God's grace. It is God Himself who sets conditions. Rom 10:9-10 says clearly and unimpeachably that confession of Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" (definitely and undeniably a physical action) "results in" salvation. Thus, there can be no argument that there is no physical action that is required to receive God's salvation. No, confession of Him does not "EARN" salvation. But it also does not "frustrate" grace.
 
No mention of salvation there

You simply assume it like much of your doctrine

Righteousness/salvation is by faith

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Maybe you should stop ignoring context
This statement by Paul should forever put to rest and prove that election to Salvation is unconditional Rom 9:11

(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
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