Data on John 1:1

[civic]

You sure about this @civic?

J.

Read the last post to me in this thread and let me know thanks. I provided plenty if scripture on the resurrection of the body.


And let’s remember the words of Job. Though my body rots and turns to dust yet in my flesh I will see God. Job 19:26

 

[Johann]

Read the last post to me in this thread and let me know thanks. I provided plenty if scripture on the resurrection of the body.


And let’s remember the words of Job. Though my body rots and turns to dust yet in my flesh I will see God. Job 19:26

Also, let's remember the words of Paul-

1 Corinthians 1:18 – "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Paul emphasizes that the cross is the power of God for those who are saved, while it seems foolish to those who reject Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:2 – "For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified."

Paul states that his focus was solely on the message of Christ and His crucifixion, highlighting its centrality to the gospel.

Galatians 6:14 – "But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Paul expresses that his only boast is in the cross of Christ, which has changed his relationship to the world.

Romans 6:6 – "Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin."

Paul teaches that believers’ old sinful nature was crucified with Christ, and through that, they are set free from the power of sin.

Philippians 2:8 – "And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."

Paul speaks of Jesus' humility and obedience, going to the point of death on the cross for the sake of mankind.

Colossians 2:14-15 – "Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."

Paul describes how Jesus, through His death on the cross, removed the penalty of sin and triumphed over the spiritual powers of evil.

1 Corinthians 1:23-24 – "But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Paul emphasizes the centrality of the crucified Christ, which is seen differently by various groups but is the power and wisdom of God for those who believe.

Shalom

J.

 

[Peterlag]

Nope-you "facts" are not pretty darn straight" and we are not discussing the Trinity but the dual nature of Messiah.

Thanks.

J.

The dual nation of Jesus is a spin off from the trinity. Both were adopted from the Pagans long before Jesus was born. There is simply no teaching anywhere in the Scriptures of a duel nature of the Messiah.

If there is a God-Man then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a duel nature it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[synergy]

The dual nation of Jesus is a spin off from the trinity. Both were adopted from the Pagans long before Jesus was born. There is simply no teaching anywhere in the Scriptures of a duel nature of the Messiah.

If there is a God-Man then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a duel nature it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

John is even more precise concerning Jesus' Deity than what you wrote. The Preincarnate Jesus was the Word of God who is eternally God and took on flesh as the man known to everyone as Jesus Christ. It's all in John Chapter 1. All you have to do is read that chapter.

 

[mikesw]

There is a debate between a Trinitarian and a Unitarian that was still going when I shared this link. The Unitarian is on an endless rant repeating the same ideas over and over again.

 

[Peterlag]

John is even more precise concerning Jesus' Deity than what you wrote. The Preincarnate Jesus was the Word of God who is eternally God and took on flesh as the man known to everyone as Jesus Christ. It's all in John Chapter 1. All you have to do is read that chapter.

I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.

 

[synergy]

I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 contradicts your assumption that the Word is just a personification. Both verses clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a personification or an "it". He is God.

 

[mikesw]

I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.

The problem with that theory is that even Jews saw the Word as deity.
Aramaic word for "word" used here: מימרא

In the beginning and in great wisdom, God created and finished the heavens and the earth.
And the earth was void and formless, desolate from humans and animals alike. It was empty of all planted vegetation and trees. Darkness was spread on the surface of the depths, and a merciful spirit from before God blew across the water.
And God said: Let there be light, and there was light as he commanded.
God saw that the light was good, and he separated (by word) between light and dark.

www.sefaria.org/Targum_Neofiti

It is amazing how many times a Unitarian can be wrong but still try to make an argument.

 

[Peterlag]

1 Kings 12:22 and 1 Ch 17:3 contradicts your assumption that the Word is just a personification. Both verses clearly show that the Pre-Incarnate Word of God was a Communicative Person who had all the attributes of a Person (Mind, Will, Individuality, etc...)

• 1 Kings 12:22 "But the Word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God, saying,"
• 1 Ch 17:3 "And it happened the same night the Word of God came to Nathan, saying,

This obviously proves that the Word of God (Jesus), who is Uncreated (John 1:3), cannot possibly be just a personification or an "it". He is God.

Well, I'm not God and the word of the Lord came unto me many times saying that the trinity is from the devil.

 

[mikesw]

Well, I'm not God and the word of the Lord came unto me many times saying that the trinity is from the devil.

Yikes. You got to get the devil cast out of you.

 

[Johann]

Well, I'm not God and the word of the Lord came unto me many times saying that the trinity is from the devil.

You must be a "special kind" that the word of the Lord should visit you when-

The Holy Spirit Speaks
Acts 13:2
"While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’"

Greek words:
Λέγει (legei) – "said" (third-person singular of λέγω, "to speak, say").
Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον (Pneuma Hagion) – "Holy Spirit."
Acts 8:29
"And the Spirit said to Philip, ‘Go over and join this chariot.’"

Greek words:
Εἶπεν (eipen) – "said" (aorist of λέγω).
Τὸ Πνεῦμα (To Pneuma) – "The Spirit."
Acts 10:19-20
"And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, ‘Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.’"

Greek words:
Εἶπεν (eipen) – "said."
Τὸ Πνεῦμα (To Pneuma) – "The Spirit."
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith..."

Greek words:
Πνεῦμα (Pneuma) – "Spirit."
Λέγει (legei) – "says."
2. The Holy Spirit Bears Witness
Romans 8:16
"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Greek words:
Αὐτὸ τὸ Πνεῦμα (Auto to Pneuma) – "The Spirit himself."
Συμμαρτυρεῖ (summarturei) – "bears witness with" (from συμμαρτυρέω, meaning "to testify together").
Romans 9:1
"I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit."

Greek words:
Μαρτυροῦσης (marturousēs) – "bears witness" (from μαρτυρέω).
Ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ (en Pneumati Hagio) – "in the Holy Spirit."
Hebrews 10:15
"And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying..."

Greek words:
Μαρτυρεῖ (marturei) – "bears witness."
Τὸ Πνεῦμα Τὸ Ἅγιον (To Pneuma To Hagion) – "The Holy Spirit."
3. General Reference to the Holy Spirit Speaking or Witnessing
John 15:26
"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."

Greek words:
Μαρτυρήσει (marturēsei) – "will bear witness" (future of μαρτυρέω).
Τὸ Πνεῦμα Τῆς Ἀληθείας (To Pneuma Tēs Alētheias) – "The Spirit of truth."
Acts 5:32
"And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Greek words:
Μάρτυρες (martures) – "witnesses."
Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον (Pneuma Hagion) – "Holy Spirit."

--tell you the Triune Godhead is from the devil-

J.

 

[Johann]

The dual nation of Jesus is a spin off from the trinity. Both were adopted from the Pagans long before Jesus was born. There is simply no teaching anywhere in the Scriptures of a duel nature of the Messiah.

If there is a God-Man then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a duel nature it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Incorrect-and I should not be the one doing the study for you @Peterlag

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Greek:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ (En archē) – "In the beginning."
ἦν ὁ Λόγος (ēn ho Logos) – "was the Word."
καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν (kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon) – "and the Word was with God."
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος (kai Theos ēn ho Logos) – "and the Word was God."
Key insight: The absence of the article (ὁ) before Θεὸς indicates a qualitative sense, affirming that the Word shares the nature of God without implying identity with the Father.

2. John 20:28
"Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’"

Greek:
Ὁ Κύριός μου (Ho Kyrios mou) – "My Lord."
καὶ ὁ Θεός μου (kai ho Theos mou) – "and my God."

Key insight: Thomas directly addresses Jesus as both "Lord" (Κύριος, a title often used for Yahweh in the Septuagint) and "God" (Θεός), and Jesus does not rebuke him, affirming its validity.

3. Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

Greek:
ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – "In him."
κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – "dwells" (present tense, indicating permanence).

πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος (pan to plērōma tēs theotētos) – "all the fullness of deity."

Key insight: The term θεότης (theotēs), meaning "deity" or "divine essence," unequivocally refers to the divine nature, emphasizing that Jesus possesses the fullness of what it means to be God.

4. Titus 2:13
"Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Greek:
τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (tou megalou Theou kai Sōtēros hēmōn Iēsou Christou) – "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Key insight: The Granville Sharp rule in Greek grammar applies here: when two nouns (e.g., "God" and "Savior") are connected by καί (kai) and share the same article (τοῦ), they refer to the same person. Thus, Paul calls Jesus both "God" and "Savior."

5. Philippians 2:6
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Greek:
ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων (en morphē Theou hyparchōn) – "existing in the form of God."
ἴσα Θεῷ (isa Theō) – "equality with God."
Key insight: The phrase μορφῇ Θεοῦ ("form of God") conveys that Jesus possesses the essential attributes of God, affirming His divine nature. His humility in not clinging to this equality shows His incarnation, not a denial of His deity.

6. Hebrews 1:8
"But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.’"

Greek:
Πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν (Pros de ton Huion) – "But of the Son."
Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ Θεός (Ho thronos sou, ho Theos) – "Your throne, O God."

Key insight: The Father explicitly addresses the Son as Θεός (Theos), affirming His divine status. This verse quotes Psalm 45:6 and applies it to Jesus.

7. John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’"

Greek:
Πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (Prin Abraam genesthai) – "Before Abraham was born."
ἐγώ εἰμί (egō eimi) – "I am."

Key insight: The phrase ἐγώ εἰμί echoes God's self-revelation in Exodus 3:14 (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν in the Septuagint, "I AM who I AM"). This claim of eternal existence leads to the Jewish leaders attempting to stone Jesus for blasphemy, as they understood Him to be claiming divine identity.

8. Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Greek:
Ἐγώ εἰμι (Egō eimi) – "I am."
τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ (to Alpha kai to Ō) – "the Alpha and the Omega."

Key insight: This title is used for God in Revelation 1:8, and here Jesus applies it to Himself, indicating His eternal nature and divine authority.

These passages, when read in their Greek context, powerfully demonstrate that Jesus is fully God, sharing the divine essence and titles of Yahweh. Let me know if you’d like further explanation of any specific verse!

Which agree with the ECF's writings re the Deity of Messiah AND the dual nature of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Irrefutable-since too many have a very low view of Jesus Christ.

J.

 

[Johann]

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

Incorrect-
The Context and Personification of the Logos
The argument claims that the logos is merely a personification of an impersonal plan or wisdom, akin to the literary devices in ancient texts like Proverbs 8. However, the Gospel of John distinguishes itself from such literary personifications by presenting the logos as a preexistent, active participant in creation and redemption.

John 1:1-2:
“In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He (houtos) was in the beginning with God.”

The use of πρὸς τὸν Θεόν (pros ton Theon), “with God,” indicates an interpersonal relationship between the logos and God. An abstract plan or purpose cannot be described as being “with God” in a personal sense.

The term houtos (οὗτος, "He/this one") in verse 2 functions grammatically and contextually to refer to a person.
It is a demonstrative pronoun pointing back to the logos and affirming continuity. Translating houtos as “it” here would contradict the relational aspect of the logos being with God.--which is what you want @Peterlag

Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).

The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce.

At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Joh_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Joh_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.

With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.

And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article.

The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jn_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.


2. The Logos Is God, Not Merely a Divine Attribute

John 1:1 ends with καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ("and the Word was God"). The Greek structure emphasizes that the logos shares the divine essence without being identical to the Father (ton Theon).

The claim that the logos is merely a "plan" or "wisdom" would undermine John's clear assertion of the logos' deity. Plans or purposes do not possess divine attributes or create the universe.

3. The Logos Creates—A Divine and Personal Act

John 1:3:
"All things were made through him (δι’ αὐτοῦ), and without him (χωρὶς αὐτοῦ) was not anything made that was made."

The masculine pronoun αὐτοῦ ("him") unambiguously refers to the logos as the agent of creation. This action requires personal agency, not an impersonal "plan." Similarly, wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 is a poetic personification and not the same as the Johannine logos.

4. The Logos Becomes Flesh
John 1:14:
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."
The transition from logos to incarnation is not described as a mere abstraction becoming personal, but as the eternal logos assuming human nature. The phrase ἐγένετο σὰρξ (egeneto sarx) emphasizes that the logos preexisted as a person before becoming flesh. It is not that an "impersonal plan" turned into a person.

5. Proverbs 8 and Wisdom Literature
The claim that John 1 echoes Proverbs 8:22-31 misunderstands the distinct purposes of these texts. Proverbs 8 personifies wisdom in poetic terms, but wisdom is not portrayed as a distinct, divine person. By contrast, John 1 explicitly identifies the logos as a divine person who becomes incarnate.

Additionally, Proverbs 8:22 (“The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation”) has often been misinterpreted to mean that wisdom (and by extension, the logos) is a created being.

However, the Hebrew verb qanah is better understood as "possessed" or "brought forth," not "created," and even if taken literally, it refers to wisdom as a divine attribute, not a person.

6. The Use of Greek Grammar
The argument claims that the masculine pronoun houtos is only masculine to agree with logos, which is grammatically masculine, but this misses the broader context. Greek grammar uses gendered pronouns for consistency with antecedents, but context determines whether the subject is personal.

Translating houtos as “he” is consistent with John’s depiction of the logos as a personal being who creates, relates to God, and becomes incarnate.

7. Early Christian Interpretation
The early church universally understood the logos in John 1 as a reference to the preexistent Son of God, not an impersonal plan or attribute. Writers like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus viewed the logos as the second person of the Trinity, who participated in creation and was incarnated as Jesus Christ.

Thanks

J.

 

[civic]

John is even more precise concerning Jesus' Deity than what you wrote. The Preincarnate Jesus was the Word of God who is eternally God and took on flesh as the man known to everyone as Jesus Christ. It's all in John Chapter 1. All you have to do is read that chapter.

Amen John like Moses in Genesis 1 makes it clear who the Creator is.

John 1-He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Studyman]

You keep repeating the word "Catholic" over and over again. I want you to be clear on which Church you're talking about. Is it the Roman Catholic Church? If so, there was no such thing during the Nicean or Calcedon Councils. Or are you talking about the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church? Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Actually, it was the "Catholic" preachers that I quoted that you have completely ignored that have taught since the council of Nicaea, that God's Sanctified and Holy Sabbath was no longer worthy of their remembrance. I had to go outside of the Scriptures to find any evidence concerning the departure from God's Holy 7th Day to the Catholic Sabbath day, because there is no edict, no prophesy, do instruction from Jesus, Paul, Moses, nor any of the Prophets, that explains the change in the Law of God.

There was a prophesy regarding the change of the Priesthood, the ushering in of God's High Priest, but nothing concerning the end of God's Sabbath and the beginning of the Catholic Sabbath.

You preach to us not to blindly follow random people promoting the religious philosophies of the religious sects and businesses of this world and yet here you are promoting those who twist Scriptures to promote a certain religious philosophy popular in the religions of this world God placed us in.

You asked about the Catholic Sabbath. There is no teaching, commandment, prophesy or instructions from the Bible, Prophets or the Christ, to reject God's Holy 7th day Sabbath, as defined several times in the Scriptures, and observe the Catholic sabbath which didn't exist until 350+ years after the ascension of Jesus. That is why one must go outside of Scriptures to find out how it came to be. I didn't make up the history, I just wanted to know who esteemed the 1st day of the week as Holy when God Clearly didn't.

Instead, let's do our own Bible study and see if there is any evidence of Sunday Worshipping in the NT. Sure there is. Apostle John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit in the "Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10). The "Lord's Day" is a direct translation of κυριακῇ which is "Sunday" in the Greek Language. IOW, John was worshipping and came to be in the Spirit on Sunday (κυριακῇ).

Rev 1:10 ἐγενόμην ἐν πνεύματι ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, καὶ ἤκουσα ὀπίσω μου φωνὴν μεγάλην ὡς σάλπιγγος

Rev_1:10 I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Yes, John, in Revelation, was in the Spirit on Sunday, which was translated as "The Lord's Day" 3 centuries later, sometime after the Council of Nicaea, sometime after 325AD. It was one of the last books canonized in the Holy Bible by what would be called, "The Catholic Church".

The word "κυριακῇ" means Sunday, but nowhere in the Greek meaning is it rendered to mean "The Lords Day". This Translation was given after the reign of Constantine and an Edict of the Council of Nicaea concerning the rejection of God's 7th Day Sabbath along with His Judgments and Feasts and other commandments as well.

This is why Paul still honored God in His Sabbaths and Feasts because it wasn't changed by God or His Son, but by religious men who professed to know God but were disobedient to Him sometime after Constantine and his priests outlawed the Commandment, and changed it to the Venerable day of the Sun in an attempt to create One religion by merging several Pagan high days, with a few of God's Commandments and outlawing many of God's judgments.

This explains, in my view, why there was no instruction, no prophesy, no commandment from God, Jesus of any of the Apostles to transgress God's Commandments, even the 4th one by observing manmade religious traditions. And the only verse in the entire Bible that can justify their rejection of many of God's Judgments, is a Greek word "κυριακῇ" that was falsely translated into "The Lord's Day", which as you have already correctly pointed out, it doesn't mean.

 

[Johann]

es, John, in Revelation, was in the Spirit on Sunday, which was translated as "The Lord's Day" 3 centuries later, sometime after the Council of Nicaea, sometime after 325AD. It was one of the last books canonized in the Holy Bible by what would be called, "The Catholic Church".

The word "κυριακῇ" means Sunday, but nowhere in the Greek meaning is it rendered to mean "The Lords Day". This Translation was given after the reign of Constantine and an Edict of the Council of Nicaea concerning the rejection of God's 7th Day Sabbath along with His Judgments and Feasts and other commandments as well.

Incorrect-

"John, in Revelation, was in the Spirit on Sunday, which was translated as 'The Lord's Day' 3 centuries later..."

Correct Part:
The phrase “The Lord's Day” appears in Revelation 1:10, where John states: *“I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day” (ἐν τῇ κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ, en tē kyriakē hēmera). The word "κυριακῇ" (kyriakē) is an adjective meaning "belonging to the Lord" or "of the Lord."

Incorrect Part:

The idea that this phrase was only translated as "The Lord's Day" three centuries later is inaccurate.

The Greek term κυριακῇ was already understood by the early church to refer to Sunday-the first day of the week-long before Constantine or the Council of Nicaea. For example:

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107 AD) wrote: “Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days” (Letter to the Magnesians 9:1).
This shows that the term “Lord’s Day” as referring to Sunday (the day of Jesus’ resurrection) was recognized by Christians well before 325 AD.

2. "It was one of the last books canonized in the Holy Bible by what would be called, 'The Catholic Church'."

Partially Correct:

Revelation was one of the more debated books in the early church due to its apocalyptic nature and symbolic language. However:
By the late 2nd century, key church fathers such as Irenaeus accepted Revelation as canonical.

The Council of Carthage (397 AD) formally listed Revelation as part of the New Testament canon, but the decision reflected earlier widespread acceptance in the church.

3. "The word 'κυριακῇ' means Sunday, but nowhere in the Greek meaning is it rendered to mean 'The Lord's Day'."

Incorrect:

The word κυριακῇ literally means "of the Lord" or "belonging to the Lord." In the context of Revelation 1:10, early Christians interpreted it as referring to Sunday, the day commemorating Jesus’ resurrection.

The Greek Septuagint and early Christian writings do not use κυριακῇ to refer to the Sabbath (Saturday).
By the 2nd century, Christians widely celebrated Sunday as the “Lord’s Day,” separate from the Jewish Sabbath.



Incorrect:

There was no edict at the Council of Nicaea concerning the Sabbath or Sunday worship.

Sunday worship was already well-established among Christians by the 2nd century, as seen in Acts 20:7 (“On the first day of the week we came together to break bread”) and 1 Corinthians 16:2 (“On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money...”).

The Council of Nicaea (325 AD) primarily addressed Christological issues, such as the deity of Christ, and did not legislate Sabbath observance.

5. "Concerning the rejection of God's 7th Day Sabbath along with His Judgments and Feasts and other commandments as well."

Incorrect/Exaggerated:

The shift from Sabbath (Saturday) observance to Sunday worship did not result from a formal rejection of the Sabbath or other biblical commandments but reflected the early church’s emphasis on the resurrection of Jesus.

Christians from the 1st century onward celebrated Sunday as the day of worship because it was the day Jesus rose from the dead (Mark 16:1-2, John 20:1).

The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) determined that Gentile Christians were not bound by Jewish ceremonial laws (including feasts) but focused on faith in Christ.


The following quotations show that the first Christians understood that Sunday became the Lord’s Day as a result of Christ’s resurrection, and therefore replaced the Sabbath. This is why believers gathered for worship on first day of the week.

The Didache

Chapter 14. Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day

But every Lord’s day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations. (The Didache [A.D. 70]).

Epistle of Barnabas

Chapter 15. The false and the true Sabbath

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, And sanctify the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart. Exodus 20:8; Deuteronomy 5:12 And He says in another place, If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them. Jeremiah 17:24-25 The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it. Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, He finished in six days. This implies that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifies, saying, Behold, today will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. And He rested on the seventh day. This means: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, You shall sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart. If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God has sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure. Isaiah 1:13 You perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. (Ibid. [A.D. 74])

Ignatius of Antioch

Chapter 8. Caution against false doctrines

Be not deceived with strange doctrines, nor with old fables, which are unprofitable. For if we still live according to the Jewish law, we acknowledge that we have not received grace. For the divinest prophets lived according to Christ Jesus. On this account also they were persecuted, being inspired by His grace to fully convince the unbelieving that there is one God, who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ His Son, who is His eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased Him that sent Him.

Chapter 9. Let us live with Christ

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death — whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master — how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead. Matthew 27:52 (Epistle to the Magnesians [A.D. 110])

Justin Martyr

Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. (First Apology [A.D. 155])

EARLY CHURCH’S VIEW OF THE SABBATH DAY

The current post has been adapted and modified from the following article: What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?. All emphasis shall be mine. The following quotations sh…

answeringislamblog.wordpress.com

What the Early Church Believed: Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations claim the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday, but Scripture and Tradition reveal something else.

www.catholic.com

@synergy anything you would like to add?

Thanks

J.

 

[Peterlag]

Incorrect-
The Context and Personification of the Logos
The argument claims that the logos is merely a personification of an impersonal plan or wisdom, akin to the literary devices in ancient texts like Proverbs 8. However, the Gospel of John distinguishes itself from such literary personifications by presenting the logos as a preexistent, active participant in creation and redemption.

John 1:1-2:
“In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He (houtos) was in the beginning with God.”

The use of πρὸς τὸν Θεόν (pros ton Theon), “with God,” indicates an interpersonal relationship between the logos and God. An abstract plan or purpose cannot be described as being “with God” in a personal sense.

The term houtos (οὗτος, "He/this one") in verse 2 functions grammatically and contextually to refer to a person.
It is a demonstrative pronoun pointing back to the logos and affirming continuity. Translating houtos as “it” here would contradict the relational aspect of the logos being with God.--which is what you want @Peterlag

Was (ēn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in Joh_1:14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Joh_8:58 “before Abraham came (genesthai) I am” (eimi, timeless existence).

The Word (ho logos). Logos is from legō, old word in Homer to lay by, to collect, to put words side by side, to speak, to express an opinion. Logos is common for reason as well as speech. Heraclitus used it for the principle which controls the universe. The Stoics employed it for the soul of the world (anima mundi) and Marcus Aurelius used spermatikos logos for the generative principle in nature. The Hebrew memra was used in the Targums for the manifestation of God like the Angel of Jehovah and the Wisdom of God in Pro_8:23. Dr. J. Rendel Harris thinks that there was a lost wisdom book that combined phrases in Proverbs and in the Wisdom of Solomon which John used for his Prologue (The Origin of the Prologue to St. John, p. 43) which he has undertaken to reproduce.

At any rate John’s standpoint is that of the Old Testament and not that of the Stoics nor even of Philo who uses the term Logos, but not John’s conception of personal pre-existence. The term Logos is applied to Christ only in Joh_1:1, Joh_1:14; Rev_19:13; 1Jn_1:1 “concerning the Word of life” (an incidental argument for identity of authorship). There is a possible personification of “the Word of God” in Heb_4:12. But the personal pre-existence of Christ is taught by Paul (2Co_8:9; Php_2:6.; Col_1:17) and in Heb_1:2. and in Joh_17:5. This term suits John’s purpose better than sophia (wisdom) and is his answer to the Gnostics who either denied the actual humanity of Christ (Docetic Gnostics) or who separated the aeon Christ from the man Jesus (Cerinthian Gnostics). The pre-existent Logos “became flesh” (sarx egeneto, Joh_1:14) and by this phrase John answered both heresies at once.

With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. In 1Jn_2:1 we have a like use of pros: “We have a Paraclete with the Father” (paraklēton echomen pros ton patera). See prosōpon pros prosōpon (face to face, 1Co_13:12), a triple use of pros. There is a papyrus example of pros in this sense to gnōston tēs pros allēlous sunētheias, “the knowledge of our intimacy with one another” (M.&M., Vocabulary) which answers the claim of Rendel Harris, Origin of Prologue, p. 8) that the use of pros here and in Mar_6:3 is a mere Aramaism. It is not a classic idiom, but this is Koiné, not old Attic. In Joh_17:5 John has para soi the more common idiom.

And the Word was God (kai theos ēn ho logos). By exact and careful language John denied Sabellianism by not saying ho theos ēn ho logos. That would mean that all of God was expressed in ho logos and the terms would be interchangeable, each having the article.

The subject is made plain by the article (ho logos) and the predicate without it (theos) just as in Joh_4:24 pneuma ho theos can only mean “God is spirit,” not “spirit is God.” So in 1Jn_4:16 ho theos agapē estin can only mean “God is love,” not “love is God” as a so-called Christian scientist would confusedly say. For the article with the predicate see Robertson, Grammar, pp. 767f. So in Joh_1:14 ho Logos sarx egeneto, “the Word became flesh,” not “the flesh became Word.” Luther argues that here John disposes of Arianism also because the Logos was eternally God, fellowship of Father and Son, what Origen called the Eternal Generation of the Son (each necessary to the other). Thus in the Trinity we see personal fellowship on an equality.


2. The Logos Is God, Not Merely a Divine Attribute

John 1:1 ends with καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ("and the Word was God"). The Greek structure emphasizes that the logos shares the divine essence without being identical to the Father (ton Theon).

The claim that the logos is merely a "plan" or "wisdom" would undermine John's clear assertion of the logos' deity. Plans or purposes do not possess divine attributes or create the universe.

3. The Logos Creates—A Divine and Personal Act

John 1:3:
"All things were made through him (δι’ αὐτοῦ), and without him (χωρὶς αὐτοῦ) was not anything made that was made."

The masculine pronoun αὐτοῦ ("him") unambiguously refers to the logos as the agent of creation. This action requires personal agency, not an impersonal "plan." Similarly, wisdom in Proverbs 8:22-31 is a poetic personification and not the same as the Johannine logos.

4. The Logos Becomes Flesh
John 1:14:
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."
The transition from logos to incarnation is not described as a mere abstraction becoming personal, but as the eternal logos assuming human nature. The phrase ἐγένετο σὰρξ (egeneto sarx) emphasizes that the logos preexisted as a person before becoming flesh. It is not that an "impersonal plan" turned into a person.

5. Proverbs 8 and Wisdom Literature
The claim that John 1 echoes Proverbs 8:22-31 misunderstands the distinct purposes of these texts. Proverbs 8 personifies wisdom in poetic terms, but wisdom is not portrayed as a distinct, divine person. By contrast, John 1 explicitly identifies the logos as a divine person who becomes incarnate.

Additionally, Proverbs 8:22 (“The LORD made me at the beginning of His creation”) has often been misinterpreted to mean that wisdom (and by extension, the logos) is a created being.

However, the Hebrew verb qanah is better understood as "possessed" or "brought forth," not "created," and even if taken literally, it refers to wisdom as a divine attribute, not a person.

6. The Use of Greek Grammar
The argument claims that the masculine pronoun houtos is only masculine to agree with logos, which is grammatically masculine, but this misses the broader context. Greek grammar uses gendered pronouns for consistency with antecedents, but context determines whether the subject is personal.

Translating houtos as “he” is consistent with John’s depiction of the logos as a personal being who creates, relates to God, and becomes incarnate.

7. Early Christian Interpretation
The early church universally understood the logos in John 1 as a reference to the preexistent Son of God, not an impersonal plan or attribute. Writers like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus viewed the logos as the second person of the Trinity, who participated in creation and was incarnated as Jesus Christ.

Thanks

J.

I can't be incorrect because there's no suck thing as a trinity. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said...

Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God.

The Epistles would have writings like...

Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ.

And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

Even the pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound,International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.

 

[Peterlag]

Incorrect-and I should not be the one doing the study for you @Peterlag

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]

Greek:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ (En archē) – "In the beginning."
ἦν ὁ Λόγος (ēn ho Logos) – "was the Word."
καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν (kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon) – "and the Word was with God."
καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος (kai Theos ēn ho Logos) – "and the Word was God."
Key insight: The absence of the article (ὁ) before Θεὸς indicates a qualitative sense, affirming that the Word shares the nature of God without implying identity with the Father.

2. John 20:28
"Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’"

Greek:
Ὁ Κύριός μου (Ho Kyrios mou) – "My Lord."
καὶ ὁ Θεός μου (kai ho Theos mou) – "and my God."

Key insight: Thomas directly addresses Jesus as both "Lord" (Κύριος, a title often used for Yahweh in the Septuagint) and "God" (Θεός), and Jesus does not rebuke him, affirming its validity.

3. Colossians 2:9
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily."

Greek:
ἐν αὐτῷ (en autō) – "In him."
κατοικεῖ (katoikei) – "dwells" (present tense, indicating permanence).

πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος (pan to plērōma tēs theotētos) – "all the fullness of deity."

Key insight: The term θεότης (theotēs), meaning "deity" or "divine essence," unequivocally refers to the divine nature, emphasizing that Jesus possesses the fullness of what it means to be God.

4. Titus 2:13
"Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Greek:
τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ (tou megalou Theou kai Sōtēros hēmōn Iēsou Christou) – "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Key insight: The Granville Sharp rule in Greek grammar applies here: when two nouns (e.g., "God" and "Savior") are connected by καί (kai) and share the same article (τοῦ), they refer to the same person. Thus, Paul calls Jesus both "God" and "Savior."

5. Philippians 2:6
"Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped."

Greek:
ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων (en morphē Theou hyparchōn) – "existing in the form of God."
ἴσα Θεῷ (isa Theō) – "equality with God."
Key insight: The phrase μορφῇ Θεοῦ ("form of God") conveys that Jesus possesses the essential attributes of God, affirming His divine nature. His humility in not clinging to this equality shows His incarnation, not a denial of His deity.

6. Hebrews 1:8
"But of the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.’"

Greek:
Πρὸς δὲ τὸν Υἱόν (Pros de ton Huion) – "But of the Son."
Ὁ θρόνος σου, ὁ Θεός (Ho thronos sou, ho Theos) – "Your throne, O God."

Key insight: The Father explicitly addresses the Son as Θεός (Theos), affirming His divine status. This verse quotes Psalm 45:6 and applies it to Jesus.

7. John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.’"

Greek:
Πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι (Prin Abraam genesthai) – "Before Abraham was born."
ἐγώ εἰμί (egō eimi) – "I am."

Key insight: The phrase ἐγώ εἰμί echoes God's self-revelation in Exodus 3:14 (ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν in the Septuagint, "I AM who I AM"). This claim of eternal existence leads to the Jewish leaders attempting to stone Jesus for blasphemy, as they understood Him to be claiming divine identity.

8. Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Greek:
Ἐγώ εἰμι (Egō eimi) – "I am."
τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ Ὦ (to Alpha kai to Ō) – "the Alpha and the Omega."

Key insight: This title is used for God in Revelation 1:8, and here Jesus applies it to Himself, indicating His eternal nature and divine authority.

These passages, when read in their Greek context, powerfully demonstrate that Jesus is fully God, sharing the divine essence and titles of Yahweh. Let me know if you’d like further explanation of any specific verse!

Which agree with the ECF's writings re the Deity of Messiah AND the dual nature of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Irrefutable-since too many have a very low view of Jesus Christ.

J.

You keep putting John 1:1 in front of me like if you never read the OP.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.

"Found".....

You would think a teacher like yourself doesn't need to "find" such things.....

 

[praise_yeshua]

I can't be incorrect because there's no suck thing as a trinity. If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it?

This is nothing but a lazy man's requirement. I mean.... you're still "finding things"... right?

Seeking God requires effort. You also have the problem of unbelief. Unbelief pretends such things.

Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: