Data on John 1:1

Peterlag said:
Galatians 5 does not say we have two natures. The flesh is dead and gone. It was crucified in Christ. We experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ. It’s dead and gone because it does not exist anymore. We become totally new in our spirit when we are born again, and this is how our old nature has been completely changed. Our minds are similar to computers in the sense they can be programmed, and once programmed, they will continue to function as programmed until we reprogram them. And this is what Romans is talking about when it states we should renew our minds. Our old sin nature programmed our minds how to walk by the flesh when we were born in sin.

Therefore, victory in the Christian life is as simple as renewing our minds to who we are and what we have already received in Christ. It’s not the struggle of two natures inside of us. We will continue to struggle with sin if we see ourselves as old sinners saved by grace. And so it's also true we will manifest the change that took place in our new nature when we understand we are not old sinners saved by grace. Thus, we act like being part of the senses world when we see ourselves as being part of the senses world. We act like being part of the Christian world when we see ourselves as being part of Christ—i.e., in our born-again spirits.
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However before the New Birth, there's only the flesh nature, and its sinful
 
Peterlag said:
“In the beginning.” There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that remind us of God’s original creation while referring to the work of restoration done by Jesus Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Genesis 1 refers to God’s original creation; John 1 refers to the Restoration, not the original creation.
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“In the beginning” in John 1:1 refers to the point of “time” when only God existed. This is emphasized by the repetition of the idea in John 1:2 “He was with God in the beginning.”

Verse 3, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made…” establishes the Word’s presence and activity in the creation, which refers to the Gen 1:1 “beginning”.

The initial expression, enhanced by verse 2, is the establishment of the Word as an eternally existent being, and thus, also God with God the Father.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
“In the beginning” in John 1:1 refers to the point of “time” when only God existed. This is emphasized by the repetition of the idea in John 1:2 “He was with God in the beginning.”

Verse 3, “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made…” establishes the Word’s presence and activity in the creation, which refers to the Gen 1:1 “beginning”.

The initial expression, enhanced by verse 2, is the establishment of the Word as an eternally existent being, and thus, also God with God the Father.


Doug
Click to expand...
I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.
 
Peterlag said:
I found some data on John 1:2 and it's about time I post it here...

The translation of the Greek masculine pronoun houtos is masculine to agree with its associated noun logos, which is masculine. Most English versions translate the pronoun as “he” that can be very confusing in English. The logos is not a person. It's an “it” the refers to the plan and purpose of God. It's very confusing to translate the pronoun referring to the logos as “he” or “him” which most modern English versions do only because they think that the logos refers to the preincarnate Christ. The ancients translated it with gender because they personified the logos and Wisdom in their literature. Even Proverbs 8:22-31 has Wisdom personified as a woman who worked with God in making the earth.

It really works well in English to use “the same” or “it” to refer to the logos until John 1:11 when the text says “He came to his own” and in John 1:11 the personified logos is embodied in Jesus Christ, who is in fact “the word” in the flesh. The ancients would totally understand this, which is why John wrote it. The logos had existed as God’s plan before Jesus came, but when he came he was still the plan, but now the plan was an actual person. The logos is an “it” but then became a “he” when it was embodied in Jesus Christ is the clearest way to express it in English.

The Jews reading John 1:2 were well aware of what was “in the beginning with God” that helped with creation. It was wisdom. God wisely planned everything He did. Proverbs 8:22, 23, 27, 30 says “The LORD made me [wisdom] at the beginning of His creation before His works of long ago. I was formed before ancient times from the beginning before the earth began. I was there when He established the heavens… I was a skilled craftsman beside Him.” Everything God did He did with wisdom because “wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom” (Proverbs 4:7.

God’s logos, His plan and purpose was expressed in wise action. Certainly this was the case when God created the heavens and the earth, but now we see that wisdom was also part of God’s plan in this new beginning, a new beginning that will culminate in the restoration of all things. God’s wise plan includes “the logos became flesh” thus, God’s wise plan includes a second Adam who can undo damage done by the original Adam and restore the earth and offer salvation to mankind.
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1) You do not cite the source of your data.

2) Have you studied Greek?

3) God is not an it!

4) “Its” are not capable of doing anything, much less create “all that has been made”!

5) Are you a JW?


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
1) You do not cite the source of your data.

2) Have you studied Greek?

3) God is not an it!

4) “Its” are not capable of doing anything, much less create “all that has been made”!

5) Are you a JW?


Doug
Click to expand...
I believe the data I post is correct and so why should I post who wrote it? Does the data change depending on who wrote it?
 
Johann said:
What exactly is my religion, and what does "stated religious philosophy" even mean?

Please answer before I put you on ignore. @Studyman

J.
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I don't really care if you place me on ignore, because you have pretty much ignored everything I have posted, you have refused to answer any of my questions or discuss any of the Scriptures I posted, and yet demand that I answer your questions, or you will place me on ignore.

This is the Hubris of which I speak.

It seems you have adopted and are a disciple of a religious sect of the Protestant religion called the "Berean Bible Society". You copy and paste sermons from their website.

You refuse to discuss Scriptures with Pancho, turning down his invitation to do so, then you turn right around, after refusing his invitation to debate what is actually written in Scriptures, and preach down to him with another copy and pasted sermon from some undisclosed preacher.

This is the hubris of which I speak.

You promote the religious philosophy of "many" who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ, that Jesus ruled over His Flesh, not by faith or as Paul and the Scriptures teach, "Yielding Himself to God". You promote the popular religious philosophy that Jesus ruled over His flesh "BECAUSE" HE was immortal God from His Birth. He Never sinned, "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He wasn't really tempted "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He could die "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth.

This popular religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others, demeans His Labor, His Effort, His Devotion to His Father, His Love for His Father and most of all, His Love for me. And makes a mockery of His Life as a scam, an illusion, a deception because if Jesus was immortal God, then HE didn't risk His Life for anyone. He didn't do anything extraordinary; His Father gave HIM Nothing because HE is God, not sent by God. The amount of Scripture that I must erase from the Bible to promote this religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others is staggering.

Now don't get me wrong. You are free to adopt the religious philosophy of any religion you want. And Jesus said I will live in world filled with men who "Come in His Name" but reject His Commandments, His Sabbaths, His Judgments, and will create their own commandments, judgments and sabbaths, and promote "Their WAY" to others over the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in. Am I so special that I cannot be influenced by these "many"? God knows I am not. This is why I have "Come out of her", the "her" being this world's religious system that "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

If Jesus was a man who believed in and lived by "EVERY WORD" inspired by God, as HE instructed me to do.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And HE lived with the Armor of God from His Youth, as HE instructs through the teachers His Father gave to Him.

Eph. 6: 11 Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

And through obedience to this Faith, overcame in this evil world, then if I choose to believe in Him enough to be a "Doer" of His sayings, and not a hearer only, shall I not also endure?

John 14: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

No Johann, I have come to understand your adopted religious philosophy, and although it is seductive, and very popular in this world's religions, it is not the Gospel of the Christ "of the bible".
 
Studyman said:
I don't really care if you place me on ignore, because you have pretty much ignored everything I have posted, you have refused to answer any of my questions or discuss any of the Scriptures I posted, and yet demand that I answer your questions, or you will place me on ignore.

This is the Hubris of which I speak.

It seems you have adopted and are a disciple of a religious sect of the Protestant religion called the "Berean Bible Society". You copy and paste sermons from their website.

You refuse to discuss Scriptures with Pancho, turning down his invitation to do so, then you turn right around, after refusing his invitation to debate what is actually written in Scriptures, and preach down to him with another copy and pasted sermon from some undisclosed preacher.

This is the hubris of which I speak.

You promote the religious philosophy of "many" who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ, that Jesus ruled over His Flesh, not by faith or as Paul and the Scriptures teach, "Yielding Himself to God". You promote the popular religious philosophy that Jesus ruled over His flesh "BECAUSE" HE was immortal God from His Birth. He Never sinned, "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He wasn't really tempted "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He could die "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth.

This popular religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others, demeans His Labor, His Effort, His Devotion to His Father, His Love for His Father and most of all, His Love for me. And makes a mockery of His Life as a scam, an illusion, a deception because if Jesus was immortal God, then HE didn't risk His Life for anyone. He didn't do anything extraordinary; His Father gave HIM Nothing because HE is God, not sent by God. The amount of Scripture that I must erase from the Bible to promote this religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting to others is staggering.

Now don't get me wrong. You are free to adopt the religious philosophy of any religion you want. And Jesus said I will live in world filled with men who "Come in His Name" but reject His Commandments, His Sabbaths, His Judgments, and will create their own commandments, judgments and sabbaths, and promote "Their WAY" to others over the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in. Am I so special that I cannot be influenced by these "many"? God knows I am not. This is why I have "Come out of her", the "her" being this world's religious system that "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

If Jesus was a man who believed in and lived by "EVERY WORD" inspired by God, as HE instructed me to do.

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

And HE lived with the Armor of God from His Youth, as HE instructs through the teachers His Father gave to Him.

Eph. 6: 11 Put on the whole Armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

And through obedience to this Faith, overcame in this evil world, then if I choose to believe in Him enough to be a "Doer" of His sayings, and not a hearer only, shall I not also endure?

John 14: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

No Johann, I have come to understand your adopted religious philosophy, and although it is seductive, and very popular in this world's religions, it is not the Gospel of the Christ "of the bibl
Click to expand...
 
Studyman said:
You promote the religious philosophy of "many" who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ, that Jesus ruled over His Flesh, not by faith or as Paul and the Scriptures teach, "Yielding Himself to God". You promote the popular religious philosophy that Jesus ruled over His flesh "BECAUSE" HE was immortal God from His Birth. He Never sinned, "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He wasn't really tempted "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth. He could die "Because" HE was immortal God from His youth.
Click to expand...
We might have a misunderstanding here.

Philippians 2:5-8 describes where Jesus "emptied Himself" by taking the form of a servant, chosing to live within the limitations of humanity, while retaining His Deity Nature. Jesus became our Exemplar through dependence on the Holy Spirit for guidance and empowerment (e.g., Matthew 3:16-17, Luke 4:1, Acts 10:38). This reliance illustrates that He did not use His divine attributes to override His human experience but instead lived as a genuine human being, subject to hunger, fatigue, and temptation (e.g., Matthew 4:1-2, John 4:6, Hebrews 4:15).

This voluntary "self-limiting" did not diminish His divinity; rather, it exemplified His humility and obedience to the Father’s will. It also set an example for humanity of complete dependence on God and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now back in Heaven, Jesus is once again fully manifesting the Glory He shared with the Father before the world began, as referenced in His prayer in John 17:5:

"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began."

The passage in Revelation 3:21 further emphasizes His victory and exaltation:

"To the one who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

This verse not only reveals Jesus’ divine authority and rightful place at the Father's side but also His role as the King of Kings who invites all believers to share in His victory.

In heaven, Jesus (along with the Father) receives the worship and adoration of all creation, as depicted in Revelation 5:11-14, where angels, elders, and every creature exalt Him as worthy of praise, power, and honor.

By reclaiming His glory, Jesus fulfills His role as the eternal Word of God who is forever God (John 1:1).
 
synergy said:
We might have a misunderstanding here.

Philippians 2:5-8 describes where Jesus "emptied Himself" by taking the form of a servant, chosing to live within the limitations of humanity, while retaining His Deity Nature.
Click to expand...

Phil. 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, "he humbled himself", "and became obedient" unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of these Deeds that Jesus did) God (His God) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

What you are preaching this says, and what it says are two different things.

synergy said:
Jesus became our Exemplar through dependence on the Holy Spirit for guidance and empowerment (e.g., Matthew 3:16-17, Luke 4:1, Acts 10:38). This reliance illustrates that He did not use His divine attributes to override His human experience but instead lived as a genuine human being, subject to hunger, fatigue, and temptation (e.g., Matthew 4:1-2, John 4:6, Hebrews 4:15).
Click to expand...

That's not what this world's religions preach. They preach that when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, Jesus kicked in God powers no other human has ever had access to. They do this to justify their false religion that God placed His Laws, which they teach is a Yoke of Bondage, impossible for men to obey, on the necks of men who trusted Him, and the only reason Jesus could obey them, is because HE was God and only God can obey God's Laws.

This same religion rejects God's Judgments and creates their own. They reject God's commandments and live by their own. They create an image of God in the likeness of a very handsome, long-haired man and they also create high days in worship of this image, while rejecting God's Feasts as worthless Jewish Traditions.

The man Jesus is a perfect example of a man who "Lived by" Every Word of God, this is true.

synergy said:
This voluntary "self-limiting" did not diminish His divinity; rather, it exemplified His humility and obedience to the Father’s will. It also set an example for humanity of complete dependence on God and the work of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...

And yet, this world's religions who call Him Lord, Lord have rejected His Sabbatha in favor of the Catholic Sabbaths. They have ridiculed men who place their trust in God to define for them what is Holy, what is clean, what is righteous, choosing instead to adopt one or more of this world's many religious sects and businesses which exist in this world God placed us in.

These things are undeniably true, but no one cares. I care.


synergy said:
Now back in Heaven, Jesus is once again fully manifesting the Glory He shared with the Father before the world began, as referenced in His prayer in John 17:5:
Click to expand...

Yes, He is no longer a man.


synergy said:
"And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began."

The passage in Revelation 3:21 further emphasizes His victory and exaltation:

"To the one who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

This verse not only reveals Jesus’ divine authority and rightful place at the Father's side but also His role as the King of Kings who invites all believers to share in His victory.

In heaven, Jesus (along with the Father) receives the worship and adoration of all creation, as depicted in Revelation 5:11-14, where angels, elders, and every creature exalt Him as worthy of praise, power, and honor.

By reclaiming His glory, Jesus fulfills His role as the eternal Word of God who is forever God (John 1:1).
Click to expand...

Yes, there is no question HE is immortal, with His Father once again having overcome as a mortal human being, what this world's religions preach is impossible to do. Truly HE has proven once and for all that " for with God all things are possible".

This is why I don't seek or adopt the religious philosophies of this world God placed me in. Instead, I listen to, and then with all my heart, become a "doer" of His Sayings.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
 
Studyman said:
Phil. 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, "he humbled himself", "and became obedient" unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of these Deeds that Jesus did) God (His God) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

What you are preaching this says, and what it says are two different things.



That's not what this world's religions preach. They preach that when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, Jesus kicked in God powers no other human has ever had access to. They do this to justify their false religion that God placed His Laws, which they teach is a Yoke of Bondage, impossible for men to obey, on the necks of men who trusted Him, and the only reason Jesus could obey them, is because HE was God and only God can obey God's Laws.

This same religion rejects God's Judgments and creates their own. They reject God's commandments and live by their own. They create an image of God in the likeness of a very handsome, long-haired man and they also create high days in worship of this image, while rejecting God's Feasts as worthless Jewish Traditions.

The man Jesus is a perfect example of a man who "Lived by" Every Word of God, this is true.



And yet, this world's religions who call Him Lord, Lord have rejected His Sabbatha in favor of the Catholic Sabbaths. They have ridiculed men who place their trust in God to define for them what is Holy, what is clean, what is righteous, choosing instead to adopt one or more of this world's many religious sects and businesses which exist in this world God placed us in.

These things are undeniably true, but no one cares. I care.




Yes, He is no longer a man.




Yes, there is no question HE is immortal, with His Father once again having overcome as a mortal human being, what this world's religions preach is impossible to do. Truly HE has proven once and for all that " for with God all things are possible".

This is why I don't seek or adopt the religious philosophies of this world God placed me in. Instead, I listen to, and then with all my heart, become a "doer" of His Sayings.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Click to expand...
You have a very low christological view of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus @Studyman.

J.
 
Peterlag said:
I believe the data I post is correct and so why should I post who wrote it? Does the data change depending on who wrote it?
Click to expand...
1) It is proper to give credit to words that are not your own.

2) The credibility of the author is a fair question in a debate scenario.

3) If it is not a part of the forum rules, it should be. It is common sense.


Doug
 
TibiasDad said:
1) It is proper to give credit to words that are not your own.

2) The credibility of the author is a fair question in a debate scenario.

3) If it is not a part of the forum rules, it should be. It is common sense.


Doug
Click to expand...
The beliefs are mine even though I did not write it. Folks here attack the man who wrote it and no longer converse about what is written every time I post data written by someone else. Here's more that is true and so who first wrote it in the following paragraph is not important because it's still true.

The pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound, International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.
 
Studyman said:
Phil. 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, "he humbled himself", "and became obedient" unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore (Because of these Deeds that Jesus did) God (His God) also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

What you are preaching this says, and what it says are two different things.
Click to expand...
My statements of how Jesus humbled himself and was obedient to the Father through the power of the Holy Spirit, being our Perfect Exemplar, are perfectly aligned with Phil 2:5-9.
Studyman said:
That's not what this world's religions preach. They preach that when the going got tough, as it does for all humans, Jesus kicked in God powers no other human has ever had access to. They do this to justify their false religion that God placed His Laws, which they teach is a Yoke of Bondage, impossible for men to obey, on the necks of men who trusted Him, and the only reason Jesus could obey them, is because HE was God and only God can obey God's Laws.

This same religion rejects God's Judgments and creates their own. They reject God's commandments and live by their own. They create an image of God in the likeness of a very handsome, long-haired man and they also create high days in worship of this image, while rejecting God's Feasts as worthless Jewish Traditions.

The man Jesus is a perfect example of a man who "Lived by" Every Word of God, this is true.
Click to expand...
If anyone, from the world's religions, wants to impose a different Jesus than what the Bible promotes then they're in for a fight.
Studyman said:
And yet, this world's religions who call Him Lord, Lord have rejected His Sabbatha in favor of the Catholic Sabbaths. They have ridiculed men who place their trust in God to define for them what is Holy, what is clean, what is righteous, choosing instead to adopt one or more of this world's many religious sects and businesses which exist in this world God placed us in.

These things are undeniably true, but no one cares. I care.
Click to expand...
I'm curious what you mean by "Catholic Sabbaths". I'm not Catholic so you'll have to explain that term to me.
Studyman said:
Yes, He is no longer a man.
Click to expand...
Huh? Did Jesus ditch his humanity and became "no longer a man"?
Studyman said:
Yes, there is no question HE is immortal, with His Father once again having overcome as a mortal human being, what this world's religions preach is impossible to do. Truly HE has proven once and for all that " for with God all things are possible".

This is why I don't seek or adopt the religious philosophies of this world God placed me in. Instead, I listen to, and then with all my heart, become a "doer" of His Sayings.

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Click to expand...
You agree that Jesus is immortal. Do you also agree with John 1:1 that "the Word (Jesus) was God"?
 

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