Data on John 1:1

You must be a "special kind" that the word of the Lord should visit you when-

The Holy Spirit Speaks
Acts 13:2
"While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.’"

Greek words:
Λέγει (legei) – "said" (third-person singular of λέγω, "to speak, say").
Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον (Pneuma Hagion) – "Holy Spirit."
Acts 8:29
"And the Spirit said to Philip, ‘Go over and join this chariot.’"

Greek words:
Εἶπεν (eipen) – "said" (aorist of λέγω).
Τὸ Πνεῦμα (To Pneuma) – "The Spirit."
Acts 10:19-20
"And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, ‘Behold, three men are looking for you. Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.’"

Greek words:
Εἶπεν (eipen) – "said."
Τὸ Πνεῦμα (To Pneuma) – "The Spirit."
1 Timothy 4:1
"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith..."

Greek words:
Πνεῦμα (Pneuma) – "Spirit."
Λέγει (legei) – "says."
2. The Holy Spirit Bears Witness
Romans 8:16
"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."

Greek words:
Αὐτὸ τὸ Πνεῦμα (Auto to Pneuma) – "The Spirit himself."
Συμμαρτυρεῖ (summarturei) – "bears witness with" (from συμμαρτυρέω, meaning "to testify together").
Romans 9:1
"I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit."

Greek words:
Μαρτυροῦσης (marturousēs) – "bears witness" (from μαρτυρέω).
Ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ (en Pneumati Hagio) – "in the Holy Spirit."
Hebrews 10:15
"And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying..."

Greek words:
Μαρτυρεῖ (marturei) – "bears witness."
Τὸ Πνεῦμα Τὸ Ἅγιον (To Pneuma To Hagion) – "The Holy Spirit."
3. General Reference to the Holy Spirit Speaking or Witnessing
John 15:26
"But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."

Greek words:
Μαρτυρήσει (marturēsei) – "will bear witness" (future of μαρτυρέω).
Τὸ Πνεῦμα Τῆς Ἀληθείας (To Pneuma Tēs Alētheias) – "The Spirit of truth."
Acts 5:32
"And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Greek words:
Μάρτυρες (martures) – "witnesses."
Πνεῦμα Ἅγιον (Pneuma Hagion) – "Holy Spirit."

--tell you the Triune Godhead is from the devil-

J.

The word of the Lord came unto me saying...
Or the spirit said to him...

Are both the same. Either God speaking to the Prophet in the Old Testament or Jesus speaking to those of us in the New Testament. A "word" that I speak does not make my "words" alive. I mean this is getting ridiculous. Am I talking to children here?
 
The word of the Lord came unto me saying...
Or the spirit said to him...

Are both the same. Either God speaking to the Prophet in the Old Testament or Jesus speaking to those of us in the New Testament. A "word" that I speak does not make my "words" alive. I mean this is getting ridiculous. Am I talking to children here?

I agree. Your words are not alive. They will die with you.

Jesus Christ is Eternal. His Words are Eternal.

Have you ever seen a group of 1 year old's playing together before? Every one of them pretend they're the adults in the conversation.
 
Even the pronouns in the Bible that refer to “God” are singular and there are lots of them. “The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament contain well over twenty thousand pronouns and verbs describing the One God” (Anthony Buzzard and Charles Hunting, The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-inflicted Wound,International Scholars Publications, New York, 1998, p. 17). Singular pronouns include “I” “my” and “he.” We would expect it to say “For God so loved the world that they gave the Father’s only begotten Son….” if “God” were composed of three co-equal beings who each had their own mind and together agreed to send Christ. The fact that the pronouns in the Bible refer to “God” as a singular being is also evidence that there is no Trinity.
This is going to be a waste of my time--


The Name Elohim: Plural Form with Singular Verbs

The Hebrew word Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is a plural form but is overwhelmingly used with singular verbs and pronouns when referring to the God of Israel. This linguistic phenomenon is significant:

For example, Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God [Elohim] created [bara, בָּרָא, singular verb] the heavens and the earth.”
The plural form of Elohim hints at a complexity within God's being, but the singular verb emphasizes His unity.

Why is Elohim plural?
The plural form of Elohim has been interpreted in different ways:
Plural of Majesty: Some suggest it reflects God’s majesty and greatness. However, this usage is not well-documented in ancient Hebrew.

Plural of Intensity: Others believe it emphasizes God’s fullness or completeness.


Trinitarian Implication: Christians see Elohim as an early hint of the triune nature of God-one being with a complexity that allows for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

2. Plural Pronouns and Verbs in Relation to God
While Elohim typically uses singular verbs and pronouns, there are instances where plural pronouns or verbs appear, suggesting a plurality within the Godhead:

Genesis 1:26
"Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us [נַעֲשֶׂה, na’aseh] make man in our image, after our likeness.’”

The plural verbs ("let us make") and pronouns ("our image") are striking. They reveal an internal deliberation or relational dynamic within God.


Trinitarians interpret this as evidence of the relational aspect within God’s being.

Genesis 11:7
"Come, let us [נֵרְדָה, nerda] go down and there confuse their language."

Again, the plural verb points to a divine plurality.

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

The shift from singular ("I") to plural ("us") in the same sentence is significant. It aligns with the Trinitarian understanding of God's unity and plurality.

3. The Use of Singular Pronouns
When Scripture uses singular pronouns like "I," "He," or "Him" for God, it emphasizes His unity, not His personhood.

Trinitarians affirm this oneness while recognizing the distinct persons within the Godhead. For instance:

Deuteronomy 6:4:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

The word "one" (echad, אֶחָד) often signifies a composite unity, as in Genesis 2:24: "The two shall become one [echad] flesh."

Singular pronouns such as "I" or "He" are appropriate because the Trinity teaches one being of God, not three separate beings.

4. Trinitarian Implications of the Hebrew Scriptures
The Old Testament hints at the Trinity while affirming monotheism. Examples include:

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD [YHWH] says to my Lord [Adonai]: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'"

David refers to two divine figures-YHWH and Adonai. Jesus interprets this passage in Matthew 22:41-46 to reveal His divine nature.

Proverbs 30:4
"Who has ascended to heaven and come down? ... What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know!"

This passage intriguingly mentions God's Son, foreshadowing the New Testament revelation of Jesus.
Isaiah 48:16

"Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time it came to be I have been there. And now the Lord GOD [Adonai YHWH] has sent me, and His Spirit."

This passage references three distinct entities-YHWH, the speaker (the Servant/Messiah), and the Spirit-consistent with Trinitarian theology.

5. New Testament Continuity
The New Testament aligns with the Old Testament in affirming God's unity while revealing the persons of the Trinity:

John 1:1-3 connects Jesus (the Word) with God and creation, showing that He is both distinct and fully divine.

Matthew 28:19 commands baptism in the singular "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, reinforcing both unity and plurality.

6. Early Church Fathers
The early church fathers recognized the tension between singular pronouns and the plurality within God:


Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD): In his Dialogue with Trypho, he interprets Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 19:24 as references to Christ, showing that God’s unity is compatible with distinctions.

Tertullian (c. 160–220 AD): In Against Praxeas, he defends the Trinity by emphasizing that God is one substance but three persons: “The Son is one with the Father, but they are two as persons.”

Hippolytus (c. 170–235 AD): In Against Noetus, he highlights the relationship between the Father and Son while affirming monotheism.
7. Rebuttal to the Claim

Your argument in the original statement misunderstands the Trinity and oversimplifies the biblical use of singular pronouns:

The use of singular pronouns reflects God's unity, not a denial of His tri-personal nature.

The plural form Elohim and plural verbs/pronouns in passages like Genesis 1:26 and Isaiah 6:8 suggest a complexity within God that aligns with Trinitarian theology.

Both Testaments affirm the unity and plurality of God without contradiction.
The doctrine of the Trinity harmonizes these themes, showing that God is one in essence and three in persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But thanks for not mentioning the Logos as "a plan, concept or an "It"




FURTHER READING

JEHOVAH GOD: OUR PLURAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER

THE NWT TESTIFIES THAT THE TRINITY IS THE ETERNAL CREATOR!

The Early Church’s Interpretation of the Hebrew Bible’s Use of Plural Pronouns for God

Anti-Trinitarians agree that the reason why God in the OT referred to Himself in the plural is because He was speaking with his Divine Son!

CHRIST: THE UNCREATED CREATOR OF ALL CREATION

JESUS THE ETERNAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER

JESUS AS THE ETERNAL CREATOR IN HEBREWS

JESUS CHRIST: SUPREME OVER ALL CREATION

The Book of Hebrews and Jesus as Creator


By sending you these links you are going to dismiss it, I know.

J.
 
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The word of the Lord came unto me saying...
Or the spirit said to him...

Are both the same. Either God speaking to the Prophet in the Old Testament or Jesus speaking to those of us in the New Testament. A "word" that I speak does not make my "words" alive. I mean this is getting ridiculous. Am I talking to children here?
I'm glad to see you've recognized just how flawed your argument truly is.

J.
 
Just trying to keep things friendly, looking for a fellow pilgrim in the race of faith, with our eyes fixed on Jesus, "the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2)-nothing more, nothing less.

J.

He doesn't need a friendly answer. This is one of the problems within modern social constructs.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

There is very little meaningful change to be found without pain of some sort.

Either way, I will stay out of your argument. Have it the way you want.
 
He doesn't need a friendly answer. This is one of the problems within modern social constructs.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

There is very little meaningful change to be found without pain of some sort.

Either way, I will stay out of your argument. Have it the way you want.
No problem.

Sheyihiyeh lecha yom nifla b'Mashiach Yeshua!

J.
 
This is going to be a waste of my time--


The Name Elohim: Plural Form with Singular Verbs

The Hebrew word Elohim (אֱלֹהִים) is a plural form but is overwhelmingly used with singular verbs and pronouns when referring to the God of Israel. This linguistic phenomenon is significant:

For example, Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God [Elohim] created [bara, בָּרָא, singular verb] the heavens and the earth.”
The plural form of Elohim hints at a complexity within God's being, but the singular verb emphasizes His unity.

Why is Elohim plural?
The plural form of Elohim has been interpreted in different ways:
Plural of Majesty: Some suggest it reflects God’s majesty and greatness. However, this usage is not well-documented in ancient Hebrew.

Plural of Intensity: Others believe it emphasizes God’s fullness or completeness.


Trinitarian Implication: Christians see Elohim as an early hint of the triune nature of God-one being with a complexity that allows for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

2. Plural Pronouns and Verbs in Relation to God
While Elohim typically uses singular verbs and pronouns, there are instances where plural pronouns or verbs appear, suggesting a plurality within the Godhead:

Genesis 1:26
"Then God [Elohim] said, ‘Let us [נַעֲשֶׂה, na’aseh] make man in our image, after our likeness.’”

The plural verbs ("let us make") and pronouns ("our image") are striking. They reveal an internal deliberation or relational dynamic within God.


Trinitarians interpret this as evidence of the relational aspect within God’s being.

Genesis 11:7
"Come, let us [נֵרְדָה, nerda] go down and there confuse their language."

Again, the plural verb points to a divine plurality.

Isaiah 6:8
"Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

The shift from singular ("I") to plural ("us") in the same sentence is significant. It aligns with the Trinitarian understanding of God's unity and plurality.

3. The Use of Singular Pronouns
When Scripture uses singular pronouns like "I," "He," or "Him" for God, it emphasizes His unity, not His personhood.

Trinitarians affirm this oneness while recognizing the distinct persons within the Godhead. For instance:

Deuteronomy 6:4:
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one."

The word "one" (echad, אֶחָד) often signifies a composite unity, as in Genesis 2:24: "The two shall become one [echad] flesh."

Singular pronouns such as "I" or "He" are appropriate because the Trinity teaches one being of God, not three separate beings.

4. Trinitarian Implications of the Hebrew Scriptures
The Old Testament hints at the Trinity while affirming monotheism. Examples include:

Psalm 110:1
"The LORD [YHWH] says to my Lord [Adonai]: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.'"

David refers to two divine figures-YHWH and Adonai. Jesus interprets this passage in Matthew 22:41-46 to reveal His divine nature.

Proverbs 30:4
"Who has ascended to heaven and come down? ... What is His name, and what is His Son's name? Surely you know!"

This passage intriguingly mentions God's Son, foreshadowing the New Testament revelation of Jesus.
Isaiah 48:16

"Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time it came to be I have been there. And now the Lord GOD [Adonai YHWH] has sent me, and His Spirit."

This passage references three distinct entities-YHWH, the speaker (the Servant/Messiah), and the Spirit-consistent with Trinitarian theology.

5. New Testament Continuity
The New Testament aligns with the Old Testament in affirming God's unity while revealing the persons of the Trinity:

John 1:1-3 connects Jesus (the Word) with God and creation, showing that He is both distinct and fully divine.

Matthew 28:19 commands baptism in the singular "name" of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, reinforcing both unity and plurality.

6. Early Church Fathers
The early church fathers recognized the tension between singular pronouns and the plurality within God:


Justin Martyr (c. 100–165 AD): In his Dialogue with Trypho, he interprets Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 19:24 as references to Christ, showing that God’s unity is compatible with distinctions.

Tertullian (c. 160–220 AD): In Against Praxeas, he defends the Trinity by emphasizing that God is one substance but three persons: “The Son is one with the Father, but they are two as persons.”

Hippolytus (c. 170–235 AD): In Against Noetus, he highlights the relationship between the Father and Son while affirming monotheism.
7. Rebuttal to the Claim

Your argument in the original statement misunderstands the Trinity and oversimplifies the biblical use of singular pronouns:

The use of singular pronouns reflects God's unity, not a denial of His tri-personal nature.

The plural form Elohim and plural verbs/pronouns in passages like Genesis 1:26 and Isaiah 6:8 suggest a complexity within God that aligns with Trinitarian theology.

Both Testaments affirm the unity and plurality of God without contradiction.
The doctrine of the Trinity harmonizes these themes, showing that God is one in essence and three in persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But thanks for not mentioning the Logos as "a plan, concept or an "It"




FURTHER READING

JEHOVAH GOD: OUR PLURAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER

THE NWT TESTIFIES THAT THE TRINITY IS THE ETERNAL CREATOR!

The Early Church’s Interpretation of the Hebrew Bible’s Use of Plural Pronouns for God

Anti-Trinitarians agree that the reason why God in the OT referred to Himself in the plural is because He was speaking with his Divine Son!

CHRIST: THE UNCREATED CREATOR OF ALL CREATION

JESUS THE ETERNAL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER

JESUS AS THE ETERNAL CREATOR IN HEBREWS

JESUS CHRIST: SUPREME OVER ALL CREATION

The Book of Hebrews and Jesus as Creator


By sending you these links you are going to dismiss it, I know.

J.
Genesis 11:7
"Come, let us [נֵרְדָה, nerda] go down and there confuse their language."

The verb “go down” which is associated with “us” is plural and so this cannot be a plural of majesty. God often works with angels to accomplish His purposes as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah. The “us” is His divine council that He often acts through which are His agents... the spirit beings.
 
Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

  • Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
  • Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kuriosis "owner."
  • Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kuriosis "master."
  • Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
  • A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kuriosis "sir."
  • The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
  • Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."
 
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Genesis 11:7
"Come, let us [נֵרְדָה, nerda] go down and there confuse their language."

The verb “go down” which is associated with “us” is plural and so this cannot be a plural of majesty. God often works with angels to accomplish His purposes as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah. The “us” is His divine council that He often acts through which are His agents... the spirit beings.
Incorrect.

Then you have a problem with the Angel of YHWH.

J.
 
Peter’s teaching to the Jews on the Day of Pentecost says “God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Acts 2:36). God must have greater authority than Jesus in order to make him the "Lord." Christ would have already been the “Lord” if he was God—in which case God would not need to “make” him the "Lord." It's also taught that Jesus must be God because he's called the “Lord.” The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

  • Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
  • Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kuriosis "owner."
  • Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kuriosis "master."
  • Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
  • A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kuriosis "sir."
  • The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
  • Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

1. What about "Lord of Lords"? Why didn't you include this fact in your "scenerio"?

2. Jesus was fashioned as a man. Among men, Jesus, as a man, has been exalt above all other men.

This is why we rightfully recognize that Jesus Christ is BOTH dealt with as a man among men and "at the same time" more than just a man.

You are actually proving the facts of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and don't even realize it.

You are making the argument that Christ can not be God because He is a man. You're trying to show that Christ is exclusive a lowly man. We agree that Christ is a man. You purposely avoided the very clear fact that Jesus is references as "Lord of Lord".

Also. You're avoiding the reference Jesus used of David. "The LORD said unto my Lord"
 
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Genesis 11:7
"Come, let us [נֵרְדָה, nerda] go down and there confuse their language."

The verb “go down” which is associated with “us” is plural and so this cannot be a plural of majesty. God often works with angels to accomplish His purposes as He did at Sodom and Gomorrah. The “us” is His divine council that He often acts through which are His agents... the spirit beings.
Misdirection.

Messengers...... the word "angel" doesn't indicate a uniqueness in being. The proper name YHWH does.
 
Messengers...... the word "angel" doesn't indicate a uniqueness in being.
Whatever you say @praise_yeshua.
“The Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road, with a sword drawn in his hand. He bowed and prostrated himself on his face.” Numbers 22:31 (The Complete Jewish Bible https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9950#v31; bold emphasis mine)

Here, again, is a Christian rendering of this verse:

“Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the path with a drawn sword in his hand. Balaam knelt low and bowed in worship on his face.” Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

The reason why this Angel is worshiped is because, unlike the rest, he is no mere creature but is rather a divine Person who is essentially one with God, a point brought out by the following passage:

“Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him. For if you hearken to his voice and do all that I say, I will hate your enemies and oppress your adversaries. For My angel will go before you, and bring you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, and I will destroy them.” Exodus 23:20-23 (The Complete Jewish Bible https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9884#v20; bold emphasis mine)

God warned the Israelites from rebelling against this Angel, whose voice they needed to heed, since he embodies God’s very own name, i.e., God’s nature, characteristics, authority, and therefore has the power to do what only God can do, namely, forgive or punish sins.

Hence, by bearing the name of God this Angel isn’t a spirt creature who merely represents God as his Agent. Rather, this particular Messenger possesses the very essence of God and is therefore truly and fully divine.

Suffice it to say, the worship of this Angel troubled the rabbis who scurried to figure out why God permitted this specific divine Being to receive such reverence:

ומכל מקום העולה מזו הפרשה הוא כי השיג משה מבוקשו, וכי היות ישראל עם קשה ערף סבה להיות תועלת לישראל שיסתלק השם יתב’ מהם וימסרו להנהגת מלאך כל זמן שלא יהיו בטוחים לסליחת הש”י. אבל כל זמן שיהיו להם דברים ידועים לרצות בהם הש”י. קושיים יהיה להם סבה שתהיה תועלתם יותר בהנהגת השם יתב’ אותם מצד כי המלאך לא יוכל לסלוח לעונם והוא אומר השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו וגו’, ואח”כ אמר כי שמי בקרבו והוא שב לראש המקרא. כי יש בפסוק זה שתי צוואות ושני טעמים. ושיעורו כך, ושיעורו כך השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו אל תמר בו כי שמי בקרבו. אל תמר בו כי לא ישא לפשעכם. אבל צריך באור למה הוצרך לתת טעם השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו מצד היות השי”ת בקרבו. כי ידוע שהמלאך לא יבא כי אם מצד השם יתברך לא מצד עצמו:

Whatever the case, what emerges from this parshah is that Moses attained what he sought and that the Jews’ being a stiff-necked people is a reason for its being beneficial to them that the Blessed One depart from them and they be consigned to the governance of an angel — so long as they are not assured of the Blessed One’s forgiveness. But so long as they possessed specific means of reconciling Him, their stiff-neckedness would be a reason for the Blessed One’s governance being more beneficial to them in that the angel cannot forgive their transgressions [sic]. This is the intent of (Ibid 23:20) “Take heed of him and hearken to his word.” And afterwards (Ibid 21) it is stated “for my Name is within him,” which relates to the beginning of the verse. For this verse contains two commands and two reasons; that is, “Take heed of him and hearken to his word. Do not disobey him, for my Name is within him; do not disobey him, for he will not forgive your sins.” But explanation is required as to why the Blessed One’s name being within him must be given as a reason for heeding him and hearkening to his word. For it is well known that an angel comes only through the agency of the Blessed One and not of his own accord.

אבל נראה מפשט הכתוב שיצוה אותנו שננהיג כבוד עם זה המלאך יותר ממה שנעשה למלאך אחר. מצד היות שמו של הקב”ה בקרבו ראוי שננהג עמו בקרוב מאד כמו שננהג עם השם יתב’, וכבר דרשו רז”ל ואמרו זה מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו כמו שאמר בפרק אחד דיני ממונות (סנהדרין דף לח) אמר ליה ההוא מינא לרב אדא כתיב ואל משה אמר עלה אל ה’ עלה אלי מבעי ליה כו’ אלא זהו מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו דכתיב כי שמי בקרבו, ובין שנבין כונתם בזה המאמר או שלא נבין אין ספק כי יש להם לרז”ל הבדל גדול בין זה המלאך למלאכים אחרים עד שלא נקרא בשם המיוחד שם ד’ אותיות אלא הוא. ולזה צונו השי”ת שננהג עם זה המלאך כמו שננהג עמו:

It would seem from the plain meaning of the verse, however, that we are commanded to be more deferential of this angel than of another, that because the Name of the Holy One Blessed be He is within him, we should accord him great honor, AS WE DO WITH the Blessed One Himself. And our sages of blessed memory have already expounded that the angel in question here is Metatron, whose name is as that of his Master’s, viz. (Sanhedrin 38b): “A certain heretic said to R. Adda: ‘It is written (Exodus 24:1): “And to Moses He said: ‘Come up to the L-rd.'” It should be written “Come up to Me!”‘ R. Adda answered: ‘The reference is to Metatron, whose name is the same as his Master’s.'” Whether or not we understand the exact intent of our sages here, there is no question that they see a great difference between this angel and others, ONLY THIS ONE being accorded the four-letter name of the L-rd. It is for this reason that the Holy One commanded us to deport ourselves with this angel AS WE DO WITH Him.

ובזה מסתלק תימה גדול. והוא שמצינו יהושע שהשתחוה למלאך כמ”ש הכתוב (יהושע ג) ויאמר וגו’ שר צבא ה’ עתה באתי ויפול וגו’. והוא מן התימה איך היה מותר זה ליהושע שהרי כתיב אשר בשמים ממעל לרבות מלאכי השרת. ואין ספק שכמו שאסור לזבוח ולקטר בלתי לה’ לבדו כן אסור להשתחוות כמו ששנינו בפרק ד”מ (סנהדרין ס) אחד המזבח ואחד המקטר ואחד המנסך ואחד המשתחוה. ואיני מוצא בכל מקום מי שהשתחוה למלאך אלא בלעם שלא היה מכללנו שכתוב בו ויקוד וישתחו לאפיו. אבל יעקב ראה המלאך ולא השתחוה לו כי לא היה מותר בכך. וא”כ איך הורשה יהושע להשתחוות למלאך הנראה אליו:

And this resolves a great problem — Joshua’s bowinG-down to an angel, viz. (Joshua 5:14): “And he [the angel] answered: ‘No, but I am captain of the host of the L-rd. I have come now.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and he bowed down to him…” This is, indeed, great cause for wonder. How was this permitted to Joshua when it is written (Exodus 20:4): “…that are in the heavens above […do not bow down to them”], concerning which our sages of blessed memory say (Mechilta, Yithro 6): “This includes the ministering angels.” And there is no question that just as it is forbidden to sacrifice and to bring offerings to any but the L-rd Himself, so is bowinG-down similarly forbidden, as stated by our sages of blessed memory (Sanhedrin 60b): “…both he who sacrifices, he who offers incense, he who pours a libation, and he who bows down…” And I find no reference to anyone bowinG-down to an angel except Balaam (who was not one of us), of whom it is written (Numbers 22:31): “…and he bowed down and prostrated himself.” But Jacob saw an angel and did not bow down to him, and David conducted himself likewise (viz. I Chronicles 21). And so we find with Daniel. He saw an angel and accorded him great honor, saying (Daniel 10:17): “How can the servant of my lord speak with this [i.e., you,], my lord?” — but he did not bow down to him, this not being permitted. How, then, was Joshua permitted to bow down to the angel that appeared to him?

אבל התשובה בזה כי אותו המלאך הנראה ליהושע הוא המלאך שהובטחו בכאן באמרו הנה אנכי שולח מלאך וגו’. אלא שמרע”ה בטל זה כל ימי חייו שלא יהיו מונהגים כי אם ע”י הש”י לבדו. לפיכך אחרי מות מרע”ה נראה זה המלאך עצמו אל יהושע. וכך אמר בתנחומא אני הוא שבאתי בימי משה רבך ודחה אותי ולא רצה שאלך עמו. ואמר עוד בטל שלא ימסרו להם שר כל ימי מרע”ה. וכיון שמת משה חזר אותו השר למקומו שכן יהושע ראה אותו שנאמר ויהי בהיות יהושע ביריחו וגו’. ויאמר לא כי אני שר צבא ה’ עתה באתי. לכך נאמר הנה אנכרי שולח מלאך לפניך. ומפני שידע יהושע שזה המלאך שנאמר עליו כי שמי בקרבו ראה שהוא מן הראוי להשתחוות לו כמשתחוה אל הש”י ועשה כן. וזהו טעם מה שכתוב בפרשה זו לא תשתחוה לאלהיהם ולא תעבדם. שאין לו ענין כאן כי כבר הזהיר בע”א בעשרת הדברות. אבל טעמו של דבר, כי מפני שאמר על זה המלאך ששלח לישראל שנקבל אותו ושנתנהג בו קרוב למה שנתנהג עם השי”ת כאמרו השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו וגו’ עמו שפירשתי. עד שמזה למד יהושע שהיה מותר וראוי להשתחוות אליו. חזר והזהיר לא תשתחוה לאלהיהם וגו’. כאומר אע”פ שהרשיתיך לכבד ולהשתחוות לפני זה המלאך. לא תרשה עצמך מזה להשתחוות לאלהי העמים שהם עובדים גם כן למלאכים או לצבא השמים. כי זה בלבד הותר מצד ששמי בקרבו:

The answer, however, is that the angel which appeared to Joshua was the very angel spoken of here, viz. (Exodus 23:20): “Behold, I am sending an angel before you…” But Moses had forestalled the advent of this angel all the days of his life so that they be governed only by the Blessed One Himself. Therefore, after the death of Moses, it is this very angel that appeared to Joshua. And so it is written in Tanchuma (Mishpatim 18): “I am the one who came in the days of Moses, your master, but he rejected me and did not want me to go with him.” And he added that no plenipotentiary was to be assigned them all the days of Moses. And when Moses died, that plenipotentiary reassumed his role and was seen by Joshua, as it is written (Joshua 5:13-14): “And it was, when Joshua was in Jericho … and he [the angel] answered: ‘No, but I am captain of the host of the L-rd. I have come now…” This is foreshadowed in “Behold, I am sending an angel before you.” And because Joshua knew this to be the angel of whom it was said “for my Name is within him,” he saw it fitting to bow down to him as he would before the L-rd, and he did so. And this is the reason for its being written in this parshah (Exodus 23:24): “Do not bow down to their gods and do not serve them,” which is, ostensibly, out of place here, this exhortation already having appeared in the Ten Commandments. The reason for its appearance here, however, is that since this angel being sent to the Jews was to be accepted and accorded honor approaching that accorded the Blessed One Himself — it being written “Take heed of him,” implying that it was permitted and fitting to bow down to him — because of this there is repeated the exhortation “Do not bow down to their gods…” That is, though I have permitted you to defer and to bow down to this angel, do not take this as a license to bow down to the gods of the peoples (who also serve angels or the heavenly host). This angel ALONE may be bowed down to, for my Name is within him. (Derashot HaRan 4 https://www.sefaria.org/Derashot_HaRan.4.24?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en; bold and capital emphasis mine)

I highlight the key reason given by this rabbinic source for why this Angel can be worshiped:

“This angel ALONE may be bowed down to, FOR my Name is within him.”

A truly remarkable heavenly Messenger to say the least!

FURTHER READING

The Divine Name and Glory of Yahweh – More Biblical Evidence for the Deity of God’s unique Angel/Son

God spoke through his Son only “in these last days”, thus he could not have been the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament

Bart D. Ehrman Proves Muhammad is a false prophet Pt. 2a

SHABIR ALLY VS. ALAN STORKEY DEBATE RESPONSE

Psalm 110:1 – Another Clear Testimony to Christ’s Deity Pt. 2

I AM What I AM’: A Bible Commentary: [Part 1], [Part 2], [Appendix]

Rebuttal of their ‘I AM WHAT I AM’ Response: [Part 2]


J.
 
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Whatever you say @praise_yeshua.
“The Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road, with a sword drawn in his hand. He bowed and prostrated himself on his face.” Numbers 22:31 (The Complete Jewish Bible https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9950#v31; bold emphasis mine)

Here, again, is a Christian rendering of this verse:

“Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the path with a drawn sword in his hand. Balaam knelt low and bowed in worship on his face.” Christian Standard Bible (CSB)

The reason why this Angel is worshiped is because, unlike the rest, he is no mere creature but is rather a divine Person who is essentially one with God, a point brought out by the following passage:

“Behold, I am sending an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Beware of him and obey him; do not rebel against him, for he will not forgive your transgression, for My Name is within him. For if you hearken to his voice and do all that I say, I will hate your enemies and oppress your adversaries. For My angel will go before you, and bring you to the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivvites, and the Jebusites, and I will destroy them.” Exodus 23:20-23 (The Complete Jewish Bible https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9884#v20; bold emphasis mine)

God warned the Israelites from rebelling against this Angel, whose voice they needed to heed, since he embodies God’s very own name, i.e., God’s nature, characteristics, authority, and therefore has the power to do what only God can do, namely, forgive or punish sins.

Hence, by bearing the name of God this Angel isn’t a spirt creature who merely represents God as his Agent. Rather, this particular Messenger possesses the very essence of God and is therefore truly and fully divine.

Suffice it to say, the worship of this Angel troubled the rabbis who scurried to figure out why God permitted this specific divine Being to receive such reverence:

ומכל מקום העולה מזו הפרשה הוא כי השיג משה מבוקשו, וכי היות ישראל עם קשה ערף סבה להיות תועלת לישראל שיסתלק השם יתב’ מהם וימסרו להנהגת מלאך כל זמן שלא יהיו בטוחים לסליחת הש”י. אבל כל זמן שיהיו להם דברים ידועים לרצות בהם הש”י. קושיים יהיה להם סבה שתהיה תועלתם יותר בהנהגת השם יתב’ אותם מצד כי המלאך לא יוכל לסלוח לעונם והוא אומר השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו וגו’, ואח”כ אמר כי שמי בקרבו והוא שב לראש המקרא. כי יש בפסוק זה שתי צוואות ושני טעמים. ושיעורו כך, ושיעורו כך השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו אל תמר בו כי שמי בקרבו. אל תמר בו כי לא ישא לפשעכם. אבל צריך באור למה הוצרך לתת טעם השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו מצד היות השי”ת בקרבו. כי ידוע שהמלאך לא יבא כי אם מצד השם יתברך לא מצד עצמו:

Whatever the case, what emerges from this parshah is that Moses attained what he sought and that the Jews’ being a stiff-necked people is a reason for its being beneficial to them that the Blessed One depart from them and they be consigned to the governance of an angel — so long as they are not assured of the Blessed One’s forgiveness. But so long as they possessed specific means of reconciling Him, their stiff-neckedness would be a reason for the Blessed One’s governance being more beneficial to them in that the angel cannot forgive their transgressions [sic]. This is the intent of (Ibid 23:20) “Take heed of him and hearken to his word.” And afterwards (Ibid 21) it is stated “for my Name is within him,” which relates to the beginning of the verse. For this verse contains two commands and two reasons; that is, “Take heed of him and hearken to his word. Do not disobey him, for my Name is within him; do not disobey him, for he will not forgive your sins.” But explanation is required as to why the Blessed One’s name being within him must be given as a reason for heeding him and hearkening to his word. For it is well known that an angel comes only through the agency of the Blessed One and not of his own accord.

אבל נראה מפשט הכתוב שיצוה אותנו שננהיג כבוד עם זה המלאך יותר ממה שנעשה למלאך אחר. מצד היות שמו של הקב”ה בקרבו ראוי שננהג עמו בקרוב מאד כמו שננהג עם השם יתב’, וכבר דרשו רז”ל ואמרו זה מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו כמו שאמר בפרק אחד דיני ממונות (סנהדרין דף לח) אמר ליה ההוא מינא לרב אדא כתיב ואל משה אמר עלה אל ה’ עלה אלי מבעי ליה כו’ אלא זהו מטטרון ששמו כשם רבו דכתיב כי שמי בקרבו, ובין שנבין כונתם בזה המאמר או שלא נבין אין ספק כי יש להם לרז”ל הבדל גדול בין זה המלאך למלאכים אחרים עד שלא נקרא בשם המיוחד שם ד’ אותיות אלא הוא. ולזה צונו השי”ת שננהג עם זה המלאך כמו שננהג עמו:

It would seem from the plain meaning of the verse, however, that we are commanded to be more deferential of this angel than of another, that because the Name of the Holy One Blessed be He is within him, we should accord him great honor, AS WE DO WITH the Blessed One Himself. And our sages of blessed memory have already expounded that the angel in question here is Metatron, whose name is as that of his Master’s, viz. (Sanhedrin 38b): “A certain heretic said to R. Adda: ‘It is written (Exodus 24:1): “And to Moses He said: ‘Come up to the L-rd.'” It should be written “Come up to Me!”‘ R. Adda answered: ‘The reference is to Metatron, whose name is the same as his Master’s.'” Whether or not we understand the exact intent of our sages here, there is no question that they see a great difference between this angel and others, ONLY THIS ONE being accorded the four-letter name of the L-rd. It is for this reason that the Holy One commanded us to deport ourselves with this angel AS WE DO WITH Him.

ובזה מסתלק תימה גדול. והוא שמצינו יהושע שהשתחוה למלאך כמ”ש הכתוב (יהושע ג) ויאמר וגו’ שר צבא ה’ עתה באתי ויפול וגו’. והוא מן התימה איך היה מותר זה ליהושע שהרי כתיב אשר בשמים ממעל לרבות מלאכי השרת. ואין ספק שכמו שאסור לזבוח ולקטר בלתי לה’ לבדו כן אסור להשתחוות כמו ששנינו בפרק ד”מ (סנהדרין ס) אחד המזבח ואחד המקטר ואחד המנסך ואחד המשתחוה. ואיני מוצא בכל מקום מי שהשתחוה למלאך אלא בלעם שלא היה מכללנו שכתוב בו ויקוד וישתחו לאפיו. אבל יעקב ראה המלאך ולא השתחוה לו כי לא היה מותר בכך. וא”כ איך הורשה יהושע להשתחוות למלאך הנראה אליו:

And this resolves a great problem — Joshua’s bowinG-down to an angel, viz. (Joshua 5:14): “And he [the angel] answered: ‘No, but I am captain of the host of the L-rd. I have come now.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and he bowed down to him…” This is, indeed, great cause for wonder. How was this permitted to Joshua when it is written (Exodus 20:4): “…that are in the heavens above […do not bow down to them”], concerning which our sages of blessed memory say (Mechilta, Yithro 6): “This includes the ministering angels.” And there is no question that just as it is forbidden to sacrifice and to bring offerings to any but the L-rd Himself, so is bowinG-down similarly forbidden, as stated by our sages of blessed memory (Sanhedrin 60b): “…both he who sacrifices, he who offers incense, he who pours a libation, and he who bows down…” And I find no reference to anyone bowinG-down to an angel except Balaam (who was not one of us), of whom it is written (Numbers 22:31): “…and he bowed down and prostrated himself.” But Jacob saw an angel and did not bow down to him, and David conducted himself likewise (viz. I Chronicles 21). And so we find with Daniel. He saw an angel and accorded him great honor, saying (Daniel 10:17): “How can the servant of my lord speak with this [i.e., you,], my lord?” — but he did not bow down to him, this not being permitted. How, then, was Joshua permitted to bow down to the angel that appeared to him?

אבל התשובה בזה כי אותו המלאך הנראה ליהושע הוא המלאך שהובטחו בכאן באמרו הנה אנכי שולח מלאך וגו’. אלא שמרע”ה בטל זה כל ימי חייו שלא יהיו מונהגים כי אם ע”י הש”י לבדו. לפיכך אחרי מות מרע”ה נראה זה המלאך עצמו אל יהושע. וכך אמר בתנחומא אני הוא שבאתי בימי משה רבך ודחה אותי ולא רצה שאלך עמו. ואמר עוד בטל שלא ימסרו להם שר כל ימי מרע”ה. וכיון שמת משה חזר אותו השר למקומו שכן יהושע ראה אותו שנאמר ויהי בהיות יהושע ביריחו וגו’. ויאמר לא כי אני שר צבא ה’ עתה באתי. לכך נאמר הנה אנכרי שולח מלאך לפניך. ומפני שידע יהושע שזה המלאך שנאמר עליו כי שמי בקרבו ראה שהוא מן הראוי להשתחוות לו כמשתחוה אל הש”י ועשה כן. וזהו טעם מה שכתוב בפרשה זו לא תשתחוה לאלהיהם ולא תעבדם. שאין לו ענין כאן כי כבר הזהיר בע”א בעשרת הדברות. אבל טעמו של דבר, כי מפני שאמר על זה המלאך ששלח לישראל שנקבל אותו ושנתנהג בו קרוב למה שנתנהג עם השי”ת כאמרו השמר מפניו ושמע בקולו וגו’ עמו שפירשתי. עד שמזה למד יהושע שהיה מותר וראוי להשתחוות אליו. חזר והזהיר לא תשתחוה לאלהיהם וגו’. כאומר אע”פ שהרשיתיך לכבד ולהשתחוות לפני זה המלאך. לא תרשה עצמך מזה להשתחוות לאלהי העמים שהם עובדים גם כן למלאכים או לצבא השמים. כי זה בלבד הותר מצד ששמי בקרבו:

The answer, however, is that the angel which appeared to Joshua was the very angel spoken of here, viz. (Exodus 23:20): “Behold, I am sending an angel before you…” But Moses had forestalled the advent of this angel all the days of his life so that they be governed only by the Blessed One Himself. Therefore, after the death of Moses, it is this very angel that appeared to Joshua. And so it is written in Tanchuma (Mishpatim 18): “I am the one who came in the days of Moses, your master, but he rejected me and did not want me to go with him.” And he added that no plenipotentiary was to be assigned them all the days of Moses. And when Moses died, that plenipotentiary reassumed his role and was seen by Joshua, as it is written (Joshua 5:13-14): “And it was, when Joshua was in Jericho … and he [the angel] answered: ‘No, but I am captain of the host of the L-rd. I have come now…” This is foreshadowed in “Behold, I am sending an angel before you.” And because Joshua knew this to be the angel of whom it was said “for my Name is within him,” he saw it fitting to bow down to him as he would before the L-rd, and he did so. And this is the reason for its being written in this parshah (Exodus 23:24): “Do not bow down to their gods and do not serve them,” which is, ostensibly, out of place here, this exhortation already having appeared in the Ten Commandments. The reason for its appearance here, however, is that since this angel being sent to the Jews was to be accepted and accorded honor approaching that accorded the Blessed One Himself — it being written “Take heed of him,” implying that it was permitted and fitting to bow down to him — because of this there is repeated the exhortation “Do not bow down to their gods…” That is, though I have permitted you to defer and to bow down to this angel, do not take this as a license to bow down to the gods of the peoples (who also serve angels or the heavenly host). This angel ALONE may be bowed down to, for my Name is within him. (Derashot HaRan 4 https://www.sefaria.org/Derashot_HaRan.4.24?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en; bold and capital emphasis mine)

I highlight the key reason given by this rabbinic source for why this Angel can be worshiped:

“This angel ALONE may be bowed down to, FOR my Name is within him.”

A truly remarkable heavenly Messenger to say the least!

FURTHER READING

The Divine Name and Glory of Yahweh – More Biblical Evidence for the Deity of God’s unique Angel/Son

God spoke through his Son only “in these last days”, thus he could not have been the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament

Bart D. Ehrman Proves Muhammad is a false prophet Pt. 2a

SHABIR ALLY VS. ALAN STORKEY DEBATE RESPONSE

Psalm 110:1 – Another Clear Testimony to Christ’s Deity Pt. 2

I AM What I AM’: A Bible Commentary: [Part 1], [Part 2], [Appendix]

Rebuttal of their ‘I AM WHAT I AM’ Response: [Part 2]


J.

I believe you took my comment as opposing your position. It wasn't in opposition.

I simply dealt with the word "angel" in general. The uniqueness is found in the proper name YHWH. Many have carried the message of God throughout history. The word itself doesn't represent the uniqueness of various messengers. "All" of these "angels" are only singularly representative in being a "messenger'. The messenger "themselves" can varying significantly.
 
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