Biblical Facts against PSA !

civic

Well-known member
@Joe in another thread did some homework and provided us with these Biblical facts in another thread. I thought it deserved its own thread. Why would anyone believe otherwise ? Why would they dispute these facts and believe just the opposite ?

1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

The above facts in the Bible are Indisputable. Why someone would attempt to argue against the facts above from Gods word is beyond me. As @sethproton use to often say about the calvinist it must be a stronghold.

hope this helps !!!
 
Penal substitution is the product of human culture, not biblical teaching. It can be traced back to the conversion of Constantine, when Christianity became "the imperial religion". Ideas found in penal substitution are not found in Scripture. I'll say it again...penal substitutionary atonement is a “cultural product”.
 
I know the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement because I was a Calvinist. I taught the theory.

One Sunday, as a guest preacher, I preached a sermon on the Cross. Being a Calvinist I obviously preached within the context of Penal Substitution Theory. It was well received. I went to bed content with the sermon.

The next morning I awoke with a conviction that I had strayed from Scripture by offering a theory rather than God's Word. I can't explain the conviction adequately. I had held Penal Substitution Theory as correct all of my adult life. I read it throughout Scripture. But I couldn't shake the conviction.

I bought two dry erase boards and set them up in my office. Over a month I went through writing every verse that proved Penal Substitution correct. Then I examined the verses and erased any passage that did not actually present the theory. In the end no verses remained.

I told you I am a Biblicist. How could I believe a view of the Atonement, such a foundational doctrine, if it was it actually in the Bible? How can we test doctrine against "what is written" except that doctrine actually be written.

I knew that the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement was wrong. It was difficult, but I worked to read Scripture without reading into it. Once somebody tells you an ink blot is a bat, it is hard not to see the bat.

I concentrated on the text. And it made sense as written, without adding to it.

I came away believing God's Word - Christ suffered and died under the powers of this world, under the wages of sin....our sin. He did not die instead of us, but as Scripture states He died for us, for our sin.

I was familiar with pre-Reformation writings because my seminary degree was in theology. I had dismissed much of their ideas as undeveloped.

Now I could read the writings of the early church and see that they were correct. They adhered to God's Word (to "what is written".


So my understanding comes solely from Scripture. It was validated through the teachings of the early church, churches outside of the RCC during the Reformation, and current theologies.

Penal Substitution Theory is popular, but it is a small sect within Christianiy that affirms the theory.
 
The above facts in the Bible are Indisputable. Why someone would attempt to argue against the facts above from Gods word is beyond me. As @sethproton use to often say about the calvinist it must be a stronghold.
If you are going to reject these facts as @dizerner says the following so often- REJECT IT ALL.


If you are really sincere, then pray this prayer with me. No matter how convinced or convicted any truly humble man would pray this prayer, in fact I will pray it here too.

"God, I am somehow convinced that my position on the atonement is correct. But if my pride let a deceiving spirit in, if I made a mistake and a wrong turn somewhere, if my own heart is deceiving me, I cannot see that without you, and I need you to show me that I'm not where I think, I need you to do something to let me know I'm deceived, I need you to show me the true state of my heart, I need you to host an intervention in my life. If this has potentially happened—and it can happen to any man on earth, for we are all sinful and imperfect—then please open my eyes, do something in my life to arrest my attention, regain the lost sensitivity to my conscience and your Spirit, and show me my secret spiritual pride, and if the devil has deceived me in my life. Please have mercy on this sinner, for all truth comes only from you, and I will remain forever blind if you do not intervene for me. I am so sorry if this has somehow happened in my life, and I want an opportunity to repent and see the truth if that is the case. Amen. Now as I read the oldest complete Bible book manuscript in the world, please convict me and open my eyes to what it really means."

And here the beautiful and precious chapter of Isaiah 53, let us now read it together:

(Chapter 53 1QIsa-a)
Who has believed our report and the arm of YHWH to whom has it been revealed
And he shall come up like a suckling before us and as a root from dry ground
there is no form to him and no beauty to him and in his being seen and there is no appearance that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and knowing grief
and as though hiding faces from him he was despised and we did not esteem him.
Surely our griefs he is bearing and our sorrows he carried them
and we esteemed him beaten and struck by God and afflicted.
and he is wounded for our transgressions, and crushed for our iniquities,
the correction of our peace was upon him and by his wounds he has healed us.
All of us like sheep have wandered each man to his own way we have turned
and YHWH has caused to light on him the iniquity of all of us
He was oppressed and he was afflicted and he did not open his mouth,
as a lamb to the slaughter he is brought and as a ewe before her shearers is made dumb he did not open his mouth.
From prison and from judgment he was taken and his generation who shall discuss it
because he was cut off from the land of the living.
Because from the transgressions of his people a wound was to him
And they gave wicked ones to be his grave and the rich ones in his death
although he worked no violence neither deceit in his mouth
And YHWH was pleased to crush him and He has caused him grief.
If will appoint his soul a sin offering he will see his seed
and he will lengthen his days and the pleasure of YHWH in his hand will advance.
Of the toil of his soul he shall see light and he shall be satisfied
and by his knowledge shall he make righteous even my righteous servant for many and their iniquities he will bear.
Therefore I will apportion to him among the great ones and with the mighty ones he shall divide the spoil
because he laid bare to death his soul and with the transgressors he was numbered,
and he, the sins of many, he bore, and for their transgressions he entreated.

Qumran Isaiah Scroll Translation



I promise you.

I prayed my own prayer, and read slowly through Isaiah 53.

And there I still see the beautiful Jesus bearing the punishment of my sins.


If I am deceived—may God have mercy on me a sinner!
 
I am a "biblicist" in that I believe essential doctrines, doctrines upon which we build other teachings, must be in the Word of God (in "what is written", the text).
 
Penal substitution is the product of human culture, not biblical teaching. It can be traced back to the conversion of Constantine, when Christianity became "the imperial religion". Ideas found in penal substitution are not found in Scripture. I'll say it again...penal substitutionary atonement is a “cultural product”.
And here is my motto. If its not taught in the N.T. then its not essential. Everything we have for our salvation is provided in the New Covenant. I'm not under the O.C. I'm under the N.C. The Covenant as Jesus taught with His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. That is what communion represents according to our Savior who made the Atonement and provided the forgiveness for our sins. He said it was done by,for,to,from Love of the Father and the Son. Never from anger,wrath, retribution,vengeance etc........

I will sing this tune until my last breath on this earth. It portrays the biblical view of our loving and good God. There is no dysfunction, disunity, disorder within the Tri-Unity of God only perfect love, unity and purpose.

hope this helps !!!
 
Li
And here is my motto. If its not taught in the N.T. then its not essential. Everything we have for our salvation is provided in the New Covenant. I'm not under the O.C. I'm under the N.C. The Covenant as Jesus taught with His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. That is what communion represents according to our Savior who made the Atonement and provided the forgiveness for our sins. He said it was done by,for,to,from Love of the Father and the Son. Never from anger,wrath, retribution,vengeance etc........

I will sing this tune until my last breath on this earth. It portrays the biblical view of our loving and good God. There is no dysfunction, disunity, disorder within the Tri-Unity of God only perfect love, unity and purpose.

hope this helps !!!
ke gen 3:15 is not essential because it is not taught in the NT?
 
@Joe in another thread did some homework and provided us with these Biblical facts in another thread. I thought it deserved its own thread. Why would anyone believe otherwise ? Why would they dispute these facts and believe just the opposite ?

1-The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
2-The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
3-The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
4-The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord by God.

The above facts in the Bible are Indisputable. Why someone would attempt to argue against the facts above from Gods word is beyond me. As @sethproton use to often say about the calvinist it must be a stronghold.

hope this helps !!!


May I ask? What exactly took place on the Cross?

And? What was Finished?

After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now finished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled,
said, “I thirst!” Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine,
put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. So when Jesus had received the sour wine,
He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit." John 19:28-30​
 
And here is my motto. If its not taught in the N.T. then its not essential. Everything we have for our salvation is provided in the New Covenant. I'm not under the O.C. I'm under the N.C. The Covenant as Jesus taught with His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. That is what communion represents according to our Savior who made the Atonement and provided the forgiveness for our sins. He said it was done by,for,to,from Love of the Father and the Son. Never from anger,wrath, retribution,vengeance etc........

I will sing this tune until my last breath on this earth. It portrays the biblical view of our loving and good God. There is no dysfunction, disunity, disorder within the Tri-Unity of God only perfect love, unity and purpose.

hope this helps !!!


Hope this helps as well...


“By His Stripes We Are Healed” that Christ not only came to save us from sin but He came to make us whole.
Jesus was flogged 39 times with one of the many torturing tools of the Roman soldiers known as “Roman Flagrum”


(2 Corinthians 11:24)

I could not find anywhere in the NT that the flogging hurt. Mentioned nowhere. Therefore Jesus did not suffer?
 
Hope this helps as well...


“By His Stripes We Are Healed” that Christ not only came to save us from sin but He came to make us whole.
Jesus was flogged 39 times with one of the many torturing tools of the Roman soldiers known as “Roman Flagrum”


(2 Corinthians 11:24)

I could not find anywhere in the NT that the flogging hurt. Mentioned nowhere. Therefore Jesus did not suffer?
His stripes came by wicked men not God.
 
His stripes came by wicked men not God.

Is this an argument that you get thrown at you, and are trying to figure out how to answer it?
Or, do you really believe it? An argument for anything can be made as long as the real objective is not being seen.

God makes use of the wickedness of men.

"Even the wrath of man shall praise You;
with the survivors of wrath You will clothe Yourself."


Psalm 76:10​

You do not believe God controls everything (both good and bad) to fulfill His ultimate goal for mankind? He will use evil for His good?

Jesus had to die on the Cross to pay for out sins. Atonement required slaughter of the animal. It was God's requirement.

God wisely used the very reason He needed to die for man, to fulfill what was needed to be done to Finish the work of Atonement for man.

........
 
His stripes came by wicked men not God.
But it says we could not be healed without it.

Therefore God used it for our good!
God used wicked men for something God made result in good.

God also frustrated the Hell out of Satan who thought he could hurt God.

Its a comedy from an eternal perspective.
 
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Is this an argument that you get thrown at you, and are trying to figure out how to answer it?
Or, do you really believe it? An argument for anything can be made as long as the real objective is not being seen.

God makes use of the wickedness of men.

"Even the wrath of man shall praise You;
with the survivors of wrath You will clothe Yourself."


Psalm 76:10​

You do not believe God controls everything (both good and bad) to fulfill His ultimate goal for mankind? He will use evil for His good?

Jesus had to die on the Cross to pay for out sins. Atonement required slaughter of the animal. It was God's requirement.

God wisely used the very reason He needed to die for man, to fulfill what was needed to be done to Finish the work of Atonement for man.

........
God controls some things not everything hence man has a free will to choose to resist His will. God desires all men to be saved, yet all men are not saved for they reject Him. He doesn't make them reject Him. He forces no one to be saved. Faith is mans responsibility.
 
But it says we could not be healed without it.

Therefore God used it for our good!
God used wicked men for something God made result in good.

God also frustrated the Hell out of Satan who thought he could hurt God.

Its a comedy from an eternal perspective.
Yes and we are healed when we believe, not before. Jesus taught this numerous times.

Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you healed you.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
 
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