civic
Well-known member
Yes he is denying scripture to fit his false doctrines about election
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Luke 22:14–22 is not Titus 2:11 which is the focal point of the passage to which you replied, so you are trying to evade the point. You fail to escape the fact that people like unbeliever Nancy are included in the group of people that Christ provides salvation to all men in Titus 2:11 according to your fraudulent Free-willian Philosophy which includes Christ's failure atonement because people like Nancy have salvation but they go to hell.
Let's review your error fighting against the Word of God. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (TomL 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
No writing in Luke 22:14-22 states that Judas ate the bread so you are adding to Holy Scripture AGAIN with your heart's treasure of "The bread - christ body was given to judas and he ate it".
You two just love to believe things that Holy Scripture does not state such as "Yes Judas partook just like all the other disciples" regarding Luke 22:14-22; in fact, no writing in Luke 22:14-22 indicates Judas partook, so you add to Holy Scripture AGAIN. No Word of God includes Judas Iscariot in Christ's Salvation, especially when he is excluded with Lord Jesus Christ's exception with the word "but" in Luke 22:21.
The word "but" in Luke 22:21 is the Greek word πλήν (Strong's 4133 -plén) - yet, except - biblehub.com) which literally means "except" is the valid translation and concept!
You have deducted Luke 22:21-22 from your quotation thus concealing the Truth (John 14:6)! You fabricate your own false language, and your actions proved your inability to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Your heart converts Jesus into a failure atonement because of your inclusion of Judas Iscariot in Christ's atonement as shown in the below traditions of men:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, (TomL 22:20-22) | This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, but behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table for indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed! (The Word of God, Luke 22:20-22) |
The Word of God dispels your deception about Judas in Luke 22:14-22 by way of the first word in Luke 22:21, the word "But" which Lord Jesus uses to indicate an exception thus Jesus excluded Judas Iscariot from being among the people for whom Christ makes atonement.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SALVATION OF MAN!!!
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It's rather obvious he flat out denies what the scripture states
Christ's body was given even for Judas
civic
Well-known member
Yep
Like I said earlier it’s doctrine over scripture. Present scripture and it’s denied because their false doctrines supersede the Bible .
Yep
Like I said earlier it’s doctrine over scripture. Present scripture and it’s denied because their false doctrines supersede the Bible .
You two are adding to The Word of God as shown below.
Luke 22:14–22 is not Titus 2:11 which is the focal point of the passage to which you replied, so you are trying to evade the point. You fail to escape the fact that people like unbeliever Nancy are included in the group of people that Christ provides salvation to all men in Titus 2:11 according to your fraudulent Free-willian Philosophy which includes Christ's failure atonement because people like Nancy have salvation but they go to hell.
Let's review your error fighting against the Word of God. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (TomL 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
No writing in Luke 22:14-22 states that Judas ate the bread so you are adding to Holy Scripture AGAIN with your heart's treasure of "The bread - christ body was given to judas and he ate it".
You two just love to believe things that Holy Scripture does not state such as "Yes Judas partook just like all the other disciples" regarding Luke 22:14-22; in fact, no writing in Luke 22:14-22 indicates Judas partook, so you add to Holy Scripture AGAIN. No Word of God includes Judas Iscariot in Christ's Salvation, especially when he is excluded with Lord Jesus Christ's exception with the word "but" in Luke 22:21.
The word "but" in Luke 22:21 is the Greek word πλήν (Strong's 4133 -plén) - yet, except - biblehub.com) which literally means "except" is the valid translation and concept!
You have deducted Luke 22:21-22 from your quotation thus concealing the Truth (John 14:6)! You fabricate your own false language, and your actions proved your inability to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Your heart converts Jesus into a failure atonement because of your inclusion of Judas Iscariot in Christ's atonement as shown in the below traditions of men:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, (TomL 22:20-22) | This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, but behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table for indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed! (The Word of God, Luke 22:20-22) |
The Word of God dispels your deception about Judas in Luke 22:14-22 by way of the first word in Luke 22:21, the word "But" which Lord Jesus uses to indicate an exception thus Jesus excluded Judas Iscariot from being among the people for whom Christ makes atonement.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SALVATION OF MAN!!!
Laughable
There is no Nancy in Luke 22
Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it
Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well
Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ
John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Yep his love for a man made system of theology supersedes his concern for the word of GodYep
Like I said earlier it’s doctrine over scripture. Present scripture and it’s denied because their false doctrines supersede the Bible .
civic
Well-known member
It’s very Sadd u cee
Good one
You missed where Holy Scripture specifically mentions where Judas Iscariot ate, but more on that in a moment. By the way, nowhere in John 6:32–59 contains your fraudulent Free-willian Philosophy of "Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ", so you add to Holy Scripture AGAIN!
Luke 22:14-22 is absent of any mention of Judas specifically eating, but there exists a spot in Holy Scripture that specifically mentions that Judas ate! Let's take a journey.
Judas Iscariot had the devil in him before the supper events recorded in Luke 22:14-22, and Lord Jesus knew that Judas was overcome with the devil, so Jesus Christ's use of "you" in Luke 22:14-22 excludes Judas Iscariot with respect to Salvation because:
During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him.
(John 13:2)
For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, ”Not all of you are clean."
(John 13:11)
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
(John 13:18)
So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”
(John 13:25-27)
So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out.
(John 13:30)
Behold, Lord specifically applies the concept of unclean to Judas Iscariot with ”Not all of you are clean." (John 13:11); therefore, Christ's atonement is only for Christ's chosen ones for Salvation because Christ says "I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’" (John 13:18).
Judas Iscariot was always outside of Lord Jesus Christ's atonement.
Luke 22:14–22 is not Titus 2:11 which is the focal point of the passage to which you replied, so you are trying to evade the point. You fail to escape the fact that people like unbeliever Nancy are included in the group of people that Christ provides salvation to all men in Titus 2:11 according to your fraudulent Free-willian Philosophy which includes Christ's failure atonement because people like Nancy have salvation but they go to hell.
Let's review your error fighting against the Word of God. Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (TomL 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
No writing in Luke 22:14-22 states that Judas ate the bread so you are adding to Holy Scripture AGAIN with your heart's treasure of "The bread - christ body was given to judas and he ate it".
You two just love to believe things that Holy Scripture does not state such as "Yes Judas partook just like all the other disciples" regarding Luke 22:14-22; in fact, no writing in Luke 22:14-22 indicates Judas partook, so you add to Holy Scripture AGAIN. No Word of God includes Judas Iscariot in Christ's Salvation, especially when he is excluded with Lord Jesus Christ's exception with the word "but" in Luke 22:21.
The word "but" in Luke 22:21 is the Greek word πλήν (Strong's 4133 -plén) - yet, except - biblehub.com) which literally means "except" is the valid translation and concept!
You have deducted Luke 22:21-22 from your quotation thus concealing the Truth (John 14:6)! You fabricate your own false language, and your actions proved your inability to righteously perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Your heart converts Jesus into a failure atonement because of your inclusion of Judas Iscariot in Christ's atonement as shown in the below traditions of men:
| The traditions of men | The Word of God | |
| This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, (TomL 22:20-22) | This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood, but behold, the hand of the one betraying Me is with Mine on the table for indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed! (The Word of God, Luke 22:20-22) |
The Word of God dispels your deception about Judas in Luke 22:14-22 by way of the first word in Luke 22:21, the word "But" which Lord Jesus uses to indicate an exception thus Jesus excluded Judas Iscariot from being among the people for whom Christ makes atonement.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SALVATION OF MAN!!!
Give it up the pronouns refer to the 12
Luke 22:13–20 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Why are you so desparate to ignore the word of God
Your so called journey is into deception
BTW there was no sop in Luke and Judas does not leave after the bread and John has no this is my body, this is my blood
What is this need you have to deny the word of God
You preach that Christ's atonement is a failure because of people like Nancy as individuals and as a group, but first some discourse in response to your post about Judas Iscariot.
You wanted Judas Iscariot to eat during the supper, and God caused me to tell you the passage that said that he ate during the supper after which he left the supper.
God caused me to tell you that Judas was excluded from salvation in both the Book of John and the Book of Luke regarding the supper.
According to you, Christ atoned for Judas Iscariot thus Judas partook in Christ's Blood of the New Covenant covering the sins of Judas, but Lord Jesus called Judas "the son of destruction" as recorded by the Apostle John in "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, your free-willian philosophy postulates that Christ's Blood of the New Covenant failed to bring Judas to salvation even though you and civic say that Judas is a partaker of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, and your free-willian philosophy failure atonement for Judas is equally applicable to people like Nancy mentioned below.
The two of you FAILED again to address the implications of people like Nancy upon your adulterations to Bible passages like John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 which you presented as your free-willian philosophy shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).
TomL, you brought up some of the same passages as civic which are already under discussion here, and the passages can be reviewed below.
People believing in Christ's failure atonement fail to address the implications of people like Nancy on their concept of who God is!
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted, civic.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your revilings against the precious Holy Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29) as you illegally redefine believe as a work of man instead of the work of God again and again and again.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
So "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 includes exclusively the people that will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent before those people die, so "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 has a different meaning than "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19, but your heart destroys context for "the whole world", and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
And you, civic, quoted 2 Corinthians 5:14 without your recognition of "and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf" (2 Corinthians 5:15) thus your heart's destroy context for 2 Corinthians 5:14, and so go your adulterations of the precious Holy Scripture again and again and again.
You, civic, quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO REDEEMS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!
You wanted Judas Iscariot to eat during the supper, and God caused me to tell you the passage that said that he ate during the supper after which he left the supper.
God caused me to tell you that Judas was excluded from salvation in both the Book of John and the Book of Luke regarding the supper.
According to you, Christ atoned for Judas Iscariot thus Judas partook in Christ's Blood of the New Covenant covering the sins of Judas, but Lord Jesus called Judas "the son of destruction" as recorded by the Apostle John in "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, your free-willian philosophy postulates that Christ's Blood of the New Covenant failed to bring Judas to salvation even though you and civic say that Judas is a partaker of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, and your free-willian philosophy failure atonement for Judas is equally applicable to people like Nancy mentioned below.
The two of you FAILED again to address the implications of people like Nancy upon your adulterations to Bible passages like John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 which you presented as your free-willian philosophy shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).
TomL, you brought up some of the same passages as civic which are already under discussion here, and the passages can be reviewed below.
People believing in Christ's failure atonement fail to address the implications of people like Nancy on their concept of who God is!
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted, civic.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic and TomL 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16 and TomL 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4 and 1 TomL 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civicTomL 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 TomLcivic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You, civic, quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO REDEEMS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!
Sorry, no, that is your belief
I teach the scripture you deny
John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not
Sorry God did not tell you that. That was your bible denying theology that had you deny scripture
There is no Nancy in Luke 22
Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it
Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well
Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ
John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Sorry no, you bear false witness, I did not say Christ atoned for Judas. That is your assumption because you imagine that if Christ is given for someone they must be saved
that is an assumption
Christ being given on behalf of one saves only those who believe as the scripture shows and even the Calvinist below states
It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]
[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
Sorry that would be another falsehood as I went through all your tortured and twisted claims one by one
in many posts starting at post 3022 extending to 3049
Why do you post falsehoods?
Last edited:
It is true that through the Grace of God, Salvation "has been brought" to all mankind. But it is also true that many men will reject God's Salvation in favor of their own religious traditions.
1 Cor. 10: 1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, "to the intent" we should not lust after evil things, "as they also lusted".
So even if "Nancy" called Jesus Lord, Lord, and taught in Jesus Name, and did all manner of good works giving Jesus the credit for all of it, if she adopts a religion as Jesus warns in Mark 7:9 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition". Then Jesus said HE doesn't even know Nancy.
Matt. 7: 22 "Many" will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
You will have a hard time convincing others that God's Salvation is given to men who HE doesn't even know.
I agree with you that men should not "ADD" to God's Word. But you might consider what is actually written.
Duet. 4: 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Rev. 18:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Taking away or ignoring parts of the Word of God is just as bad, possibly worse than "Adding" to God's Word. A man can be healed from a plague, but if a man's name is taken out of the Book of Life, it's over for him.
I have no dog in this fight between Pharisees vs Sadducees, or Armenians vs Calvinists, or Baptists vs Methodists, and so on. If a religious sect or business transgresses God's Commandments so they can keep their own manmade religious traditions, what difference does it make what name they call themselves?
You have no defense because Christ's failure atonement is the conclusion of your faith as shown in the following about Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy.
Of your many posts, God caused me to address your post in which your heart corrupted the Holy Scripture recorded in Titus 2:11 converting it into TomL 2:11, so you are shown to be a false prophet (1 John 4:1).
Now back to your fabricated free-willian philosophy regarding Christ's atonement.
You wanted Judas Iscariot to eat during the supper, and God caused me to tell you the passage that said that he ate during the supper after which he left the supper.
God caused me to tell you that Judas was excluded from salvation in both the Book of John and the Book of Luke regarding the supper.
According to you, Christ atoned for Judas Iscariot thus Judas partook in Christ's Blood of the New Covenant covering the sins of Judas, but Lord Jesus called Judas "the son of destruction" as recorded by the Apostle John in "not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction" (John 17:12); therefore, your free-willian philosophy postulates that Christ's Blood of the New Covenant failed to bring Judas to salvation even though you and civic say that Judas is a partaker of the New Covenant in Christ's Blood, and your free-willian philosophy failure atonement for Judas is equally applicable to people like Nancy mentioned below.
The two of you FAILED again to address the implications of people like Nancy upon your adulterations to Bible passages like John 1:29, Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, Titus 3:4, John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, and 2 Corinthians 5:14 which you presented as your free-willian philosophy shifting sand (Matthew 7:21-27).
TomL, you brought up some of the same passages as civic which are already under discussion here, and the passages can be reviewed below.
People believing in Christ's failure atonement fail to address the implications of people like Nancy on their concept of who God is!
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted, civic.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic and TomL 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16 and TomL 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4 and 1 TomL 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civicTomL 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 TomLcivic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You, civic, quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE WHO REDEEMS HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE!!!
civic
Well-known member
Fatalism just like your fathers Augustine and Calvin who made up your false doctrines.
Maybe the god of this world but not the God from above
Sorry you were were already shown to be busted
Christ died for all
Judas and Nancy as well
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I teach the scripture you deny
John 3:14–18 (NASB 2020) — 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. 18 The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
God loved the world and gave Christ to the world; that those in world who believe will be saved and those who die in unbelief will not
Sorry God did not tell you that. That was your bible denying theology that had you deny scripture
There is no Nancy in Luke 22
Luke 22:19–20 (ESV) — 19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Fact the bread which represents Christ body was given to Judas and he ate it
Fact the cup which represents Christ's shed blood was given to him as well
Another fact the bread (Christ body) was given to the opposers of Christ
John 6:32–59 (ESV) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Sorry no, you bear false witness, I did not say Christ atoned for Judas. That is your assumption because you imagine that if Christ is given for someone they must be saved
that is an assumption
Christ being given on behalf of one saves only those who believe as the scripture shows and even the Calvinist below states
It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]
[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
Sorry that would be another falsehood as I went through all your tortured and twisted claims one by one
in many posts starting at post 3022 extending to 3049
Why do you post falsehoods?
civic
Well-known member
In every post there are falsehoods
Thank you for acknowledging people like Nancy!
Please understand, this is about people like Nancy dying in a state of unbelief, and the relationship between Christ's atonement with those people like Nancy.
@civic presented Titus 2:11 to me as proof that all men are covered by Christ's atonement, that is, Christ's atonement for all men.
The first state of man is fleshly opposition to God (John 6:63), so everyone starts out under the wrath of God, and man is entirely dependent on God's rescue even God rescuing one from oneself's evil nature (John 15:16-19).
The distinguishing factor of including people like Nancy in the concept of "salvation to all men" results in Christ's atonement for salvation for people like Nancy being a failure as demonstrated:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are in hell suffering eternally under the wrath of God (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
There is a good deal more context to the above, and for your convenience, it is at post #2,963.
By the way, your closing paragraph is sensible and well written.
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE YOU, THE SOURCE OF JOY UNSPEAKABLE!!!
civic
Well-known member
Atonement is for everyone , all men
1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
As we see above the Apostle Paul says we are to pray for " ALL " people everywhere even for the " kings in authority" and then uses the same word in the same context of " ALL " people with Jesus giving His life as a ransom for all.
You cannot have ALL mean two different things in the context of the passage. That is once again being dishonest with the text and reading ones doctrine into the passage which is eisegesis.
And there is no way to be honest with the text and say ALL has one meaning in verse 1 and another meaning in verse 6. This is one continuous thought by Paul in the text above.
Some may not like the above comments but that is what the text is saying and I'm just being honest with the text and not reading my own personal theology into the text.
Jesus died for all as we read in scripture below
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus below says it’s for everyone
John 3:14-18
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Above we see those who looked upon the brass serpent in the wilderness were healed/ saved. Moses provided a way for those bit by the poisonous snakes to be healed and not die by looking upon the brass serpent. Jesus compares Himself in the same way to be saved by His provision for their sins through His atonement to be received by faith. In both cases faith saved them in the OT wilderness as is the case with Jesus in the NT.
hope this helps !!!
hope this helps !!!
