Where's the wrath??

The same goes for you-you are not fit or called to be a pastor, preacher or a teacher. Instead of promulgation the Scriptures, Christ Jesus, the cross and resurrection you are in a all out, online, attack on fellow brothers and sisters in Messiah holding to PSA-you are not going to muzzle me as you attempt to muzzle the others.
Enjoy your stay here-there is an election going on in South Africa.
My church which includes calvinists affirm my teaching and leadership. I lead 2 mens discipleship groups which includes the pastors and the elders. Also a weekly small group of 16 people on Wednesday nights.

And the pastors have read my paper on PSA.

hope this helps !!!
 
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The same goes for you-you are not fit or called to be a pastor, preacher or a teacher. Instead of promulgation the Scriptures, Christ Jesus, the cross and resurrection you are in a all out, online, attack on fellow brothers and sisters in Messiah holding to PSA-you are not going to muzzle me as you attempt to muzzle the others.
Enjoy your stay here-there is an election going on in South Africa.
And I will defend the Deity of Christ- His Person and work, the Trinity, the gospel, the Resurrection and the Atonement against anyone and everyone. The essentials I will defend every day against all opposition that assaults the good character of God which tulip and PSA do with their false teachings about God.

And I don't muzzle anyone lol. You are free to believe whatever you want here just be ready to have your beliefs challenged and opposed with the truth from Scripture.

You have been mislead by the doctrines of men which you quote on a daily basis. You don't search the scriptures like a good Berean you search the teachings of men and quote them with your daily cut n pastes. Its not your own work its the work of others.

hope this helps !!!
 
If you guys want to carry on blaspheming what I believe is the truth, and know it is the truth-please go ahead.

Call me a heretic man-you and your comrades but I want to see how you walk your talk and not talk your walk and in now way, shape or form do I believe that "God wanted to have His "pound of flesh" as you stated.

Look again at the verbs in Isaiah 53 and YOU tell me it is not penal-Ps 22 and many more--

Thanks
Johann.
Brother, I I have not disrespected you or your understanding that you believe. I have explained my understanding that I believe in hopes that you would perceive it.

The onus is upon you to use supporting scriptures, according to your belief, that our Heavenly Father punished our Lord and Savior. It is not mentioned by any author of the New Testament. A sin offering does not get punished. It dies to make atonement for the sin of the sinner. In the case of our Lord, no one took His life, He gave it.

I have not judged you nor will I. That is not why I have a dialogue with you. I was hoping that you would understand differently after being exposed to someone else’s understanding.

I once understood like you, that God poured his wrath out upon his own son because my sins deserve it. But that is not what it takes for God to be righteous in forgiving our sins. He has already demonstrated to us what it takes. He sent his own Son into this world as one of us, to live like us, to experience life as a human does, to be tempted in all ways, and never sinned, and to willingly suffer death that our sins could be forgiven. Is this not true?

I have given you many reasons that are clearly expressed in OT promises and fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reasons are well documented by the authors of the NT. And not one of them ever mentioned wrath or punishment upon our Lord by His Father. Is this not true?

I pray that what I have expressed respectfully in many posts, you may realize and understand.

God Bless
 
Brother, I I have not disrespected you or your understanding that you believe. I have explained my understanding that I believe in hopes that you would perceive it.

The onus is upon you to use supporting scriptures, according to your belief, that our Heavenly Father punished our Lord and Savior. It is not mentioned by any author of the New Testament. A sin offering does not get punished. It dies to make atonement for the sin of the sinner. In the case of our Lord, no one took His life, He gave it.

I have not judged you nor will I. That is not why I have a dialogue with you. I was hoping that you would understand differently after being exposed to someone else’s understanding.

I once understood like you, that God poured his wrath out upon his own son because my sins deserve it. But that is not what it takes for God to be righteous in forgiving our sins. He has already demonstrated to us what it takes. He sent his own Son into this world as one of us, to live like us, to experience life as a human does, to be tempted in all ways, and never sinned, and to willingly suffer death that our sins could be forgiven. Is this not true?

I have given you many reasons that are clearly expressed in OT promises and fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reasons are well documented by the authors of the NT. And not one of them ever mentioned wrath or punishment upon our Lord by His Father. Is this not true?

I pray that what I have expressed respectfully in many posts, you may realize and understand.

God Bless
Indeed

The sufferings of Christ were not the actual punishment of sin in the satisfaction of retributive justice, but a provisory substitute for penalty, so that sin might be actually forgiven
 
Brother, I I have not disrespected you or your understanding that you believe. I have explained my understanding that I believe in hopes that you would perceive it.

The onus is upon you to use supporting scriptures, according to your belief, that our Heavenly Father punished our Lord and Savior. It is not mentioned by any author of the New Testament. A sin offering does not get punished. It dies to make atonement for the sin of the sinner. In the case of our Lord, no one took His life, He gave it.

I have not judged you nor will I. That is not why I have a dialogue with you. I was hoping that you would understand differently after being exposed to someone else’s understanding.

I once understood like you, that God poured his wrath out upon his own son because my sins deserve it. But that is not what it takes for God to be righteous in forgiving our sins. He has already demonstrated to us what it takes. He sent his own Son into this world as one of us, to live like us, to experience life as a human does, to be tempted in all ways, and never sinned, and to willingly suffer death that our sins could be forgiven. Is this not true?

I have given you many reasons that are clearly expressed in OT promises and fulfilled in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The reasons are well documented by the authors of the NT. And not one of them ever mentioned wrath or punishment upon our Lord by His Father. Is this not true?

I pray that what I have expressed respectfully in many posts, you may realize and understand.

God Bless
Amen 🙏
 
Brother, I I have not disrespected you or your understanding that you believe. I have explained my understanding that I believe in hopes that you would perceive it.

The onus is upon you to use supporting scriptures, according to your belief, that our Heavenly Father punished our Lord and Savior. It is not mentioned by any author of the New Testament. A sin offering does not get punished. It dies to make atonement for the sin of the sinner. In the case of our Lord, no one took His life, He gave it.
Nor is the sin offering considered sinful because of imputed sin but holy

Leviticus 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
 
Nor is the sin offering considered sinful because of imputed sin but holy

Leviticus 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?
I fully agree. Imputation of sin is not found in the bible. In the case of sin offering, the laying of hands was not imputation but confession that the sacrifice was dying for their sins; that by the grace of God, He gives man the provision of a sinless life dying for the sins of the sinner. In the OT sin offering, the priest laying his hands upon the sacrifice's head is confessional and symbolic, in that the confessed sin of the people were removed by the death of the spotless sacrifice. Some people like to use the word reckon; that the sin of man was reckoned upon the sin offering.This means the same thing; that our sins were transferred from us to the sin offering, but this is not found in the bible.

The spotless sin offering in the presence of God bears the iniquity-dies for the sins of the people to reconcile them to God. It is the sinless life of one who dies for the sins of the sinner that removes our sin.

Our sinless Lord offered His life in the presence of our Father to die for our sins, and in His offering, our Father laid upon Him the iniquities of us all. This means the very reason His Father gave Him was explicitly to die for our sins. By the grace of God, He gave His life as a sin offering unto death that removed the guilt of our sin and reconciles us to God. What makes the sin offering effective is God's grace by instituting the provision of the righteous suffering death for the unrighteous. And how unimaginable is it that God died for our sins to remove our guilt, thus making reconciliation for our sin.

God Bless
 
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I fully agree. Imputation of sin is not found in the bible. In the case of sin offering, the laying of hands was not imputation but confession that the sacrifice was dying for their sins; that by the grace of God, He gives man the provision of a sinless life dying for the sins of the sinner. In the OT sin offering, the priest laying his hands upon the sacrifice's head is confessional and symbolic, in that the confessed sin of the people were removed by the death of the spotless sacrifice. Some people like to use the word reckon; that the sin of man was reckoned upon the sin offering.This means the same thing; that our sins were transferred from us to the sin offering, but this is not found in the bible.

The spotless sin offering in the presence of God bears the iniquity-dies for the sins of the people to reconcile them to God. It is the sinless life of one who dies for the sins of the sinner that removes our sin.

Our sinless Lord offered His life in the presence of our Father to die for our sins, and in His offering, our Father laid upon Him the iniquities of us all. This means the very reason His Father gave Him was explicitly to die for our sins. By the grace of God, He gave His life as a sin offering unto death that removed the guilt of our sin and reconciles us to God. What makes the sin offering effective is God's grace by instituting the provision of the righteous suffering death for the unrighteous. And how unimaginable is it that God died for our sins to remove our guilt, thus making reconciliation for our sin.

God Bless
Yes yet righteous is and it is imputed based on one's faith

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:19–24 (KJV 1900) — 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
 
Yes yet righteous is and it is imputed based on one's faith

Romans 4:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:19–24 (KJV 1900) — 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Why I hold to PSA.

Excursus: God is Both Just and the Justifier
This understanding of Isaiah 53 is not without difficulty or debate, for it raises a
question. How can one man pay the penalty for another? Or from a close reading of the Bible,
how can God ―justify the ungodly‖ (Rom. 4:5) when it says, ―He who justifies the wicked and he
who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD‖ (Prov. 17:5)?

Today, the doctrine of the atonement is under fierce attack, and what is at stake is
nothing less than the gospel. For if this doctrine is lost, so is the good news of forgiveness and
eternal life.22

This is why understanding Isaiah 53, exegetically and theologically, is so
important. It details the great effects of the cross, and makes sense of God‘s plan of redemptive
history.23

Even if the doctrines of grace and justice seem at first to be at odds with one another,
as Scripture speaks, the purpose of the cross becomes more apparent.


The message of Isaiah 53
is that Christ‘s cross is the place ―where wrath and mercy meet‖ and salvation is procured.24
John Piper‘s treatment of the theological quandary raised in Isaiah 53 is immensely
helpful and many of his arguments are included here.25
As he wrestles with the divine purpose in
the death of Christ, he begins to resolve matters in the Godhead by asking the question, ―Who-----

22 See Roger Nicole‘s short but powerful post script in The Glory of the Atonement (Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 2004), 445-52. In that brief summary, Nicole warns that rejection of penal substitution inevitably
makes the cross of Christ impotent. In his words, penal substitution is ―the linchpin without which everything else
loses its foundation and flies off the handle so to speak‖ (The Glory of the Atonement, 451).



23 For instance, the disciples on the road to Emmaus could not make sense of the Scriptures or the
events of Jesus‘ passion until Jesus explained to them all that the Scriptures said about him—his suffering and
exaltation (Luke 24).

24 This phrase is taken from a song by Graham Kendrick, entitled ‗Come and See,‘ as cited in a recent
book by the same name which makes an able defense of penal substitution. (David Peterson (ed.), Where Wrath &
Mercy Meet: Proclaiming the Atonement Today (Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster, 2001), xiv.

25 For a full treatment of this subject see John Piper, The Pleasures of God: Meditations on God’s
Delight in Being God (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 2000), 157-178.
10
killed Jesus?‖26

Citing Isaiah 53:10, he answers that God did. ―The LORD was pleased to
bruise him.‖ Behind the senseless violence of wicked men stood the Father. It was according to
his ―definite plan and foreknowledge‖ that Jesus died as the suffering servant (Acts 2:23; cf.
4:27-28). This was done to put sin to death and to end its marring effect on the glory of God.27
Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 attest to YHWH‘s commitment to his own glory. So too Isaiah
43:6-7 teaches that mankind was created for the glory of God. Yet, the world under Satan‘s
thralldom is imprisoned to sin and wars against God‘s glory. The devil deceived Adam and Eve
to sin in the beginning, and ever since mankind has been God‘s enemy (Rom. 5:8; Eph. 2:1-3).
―All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God‖ (Rom. 3:23). Sin is directly connected to
God‘s glory, and since God is committed to his glory and to the beings created in his image, he
sent his Son to undo the works of the devil and to redeem a people for his glory (1 Jn. 3:8; Tit.
2:14). Yet, the only way to do that is through the death of sin in the death of his son.28
Piper moves from God‘s glory to humanity‘s sin, contending that Jesus died to make a
―propitiation‖ for sins, whereby ―God averted his own wrath through the death of his Son.‖ 29


26 Ibid., 160.
27 Many contemporary formulations of a ―non-violent atonement‖ fail to recognize the gravity of sin.
Thomas Schreiner articulates this glaring deficit as he surveys other views of the atonement in his chapter, ―Penal
Substitution View‖ in The Nature of the Atonement edited by James Beilby and Paul Eddy [Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 2006], 67-98.


28 Thomas Schreiner‘s defense of penal substitution argues along these same lines (―Penal Substitution
View,‖ 67-98). Sin necessitates a penalty to be paid, and only through the payment of that penalty can any sinful
man or woman truly be legally freed from the debt they owe God. This is what is absent in all other models of the
atonement. None of them sufficiently handle the problem of sin. They either minimize it or shift attention to
something else. However, Scripture teaches that this humanity‘s biggest problem and therefore the central issue of
the cross.

29 Piper, The Pleasures of God, 163. Piper explains the necessary use of ―propitiation‖ as the proper
interpretation of hilasterion. He writes on the same page, ―This old word is important because other words like
―expiation‖ and ―sacrifice of atonement‖ do not press forward the idea of appeasing wrath which is in the word. The
point of the word is that God‘s wrath is against the ungodly because of the way they have desecrated his glory, and a
way must be found for this wrath to be averted. This is what happened in the death of Jesus. That is what

11
Often debated as a term originating in Greek mythology, Leon Morris contends that in the Bible
this notion of heathen propitiation is abandoned.30
Still questions of God‘s love and his demand
for a propitiation to satisfy his wrath abound. John Murray‘s treatment addresses these issues:
1) to love and to be propitious are not controvertible terms [i.e. mutually exclusive]. It is
false to suppose that the doctrine…regards propitiation as that which causes or constrains
the divine love… 2) propitiation is not a turning of the wrath of God into love. The
propitiation of the divine wrath, effected in the expiatory work of Christ, is the provision of
God‘s eternal and unchangeable love…3) propitiation does not detract from the love and
mercy of God; it rather enhances the marvel of his love. For it shows the cost that
redemptive love entails…God appeases his own holy wrath in the cross of Christ in order
that the purpose of his love to lost men may be accomplished in accordance…his glory.31
Through the propitiation of God‘s wrath, the mercy of God makes payment to the
wrath of God,32 making a transaction that will once and for all clear Him of injustice and at the
same time bring an end to sin, Satan, and death.33

On the cross, God‘s wisdom is revealed (1
Cor. 1:18ff; Eph 3:10) and the tension of God‘s seething wrath and unfailing mercy are resolved.
As Paul says about Jesus in Romans 3:25-26,
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to
show God‘s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sin.
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier
of the one who has faith in Jesus.34

propitiation means: God averted his own wrath through the death of his Son (emphasis mine).‖
30 Leon Morris, The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1965), 210-11.
31 John Murray, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1955), 31-32.
32 John Stott captures the essence of this, ―The only way for God‘s holy love to be satisfied is for his
holiness to be directed in judgment upon his appointed substitute, in order that his love may be directed towards us
in forgiveness…Divine love triumphed over divine wrath by divine self-sacrifice. The cross was an act
simultaneously of punishment and amnesty, severity and grace, justice and mercy‖ (The Cross of Christ, 158-59).
33 Though it is out of the purview of this paper, this accomplishment must be understood in an already /
not yet fashion. While Christ‘s work has been completely fulfilled on the cross (John 19:30), the effects of that
propitiatory victory are still being worked out. Much like Nazi-occupied France between D-Day and V-Day, we live
in between the time when Jesus won the decisive victory on the cross and when he will return and reign on the earth.
34 For an excellent treatment of this passage which argues for the historic understanding of penal
substitution see D.A. Carson, ―Atonement in Romans 3:21-26: ‗God presented him as a propitiation,‘‖ in The Glory
of the Atonement, 119-139.
12
Some may ask, ―Couldn‘t God forgive humanity without such a payment?‖ However,
such a cheap forgiveness would militate against his veracity and justice. By forgiving without
payment, God‘s initial warning in Genesis 2:17 and mankind‘s rightful curse would only be vain
words from an inconstant God. This would invariably denigrate the value of God‘s glory. For if
sin impugns His name, and God merely excuses this kind of defiant behavior as accidental or
minimal, the great judge would display reprehensible justice as he dismisses sin without
concomitant justice.35
Instead, by the death of his son, God the Father upholds his justice while
extending forgiveness to all those for whom Christ died.36

Conversely, some question the love of God because of His commitment to his own
glory and the execution of his righteous judgment. Sadly, there are some, who with limited
human understanding, categorize God as a child abuser. Yet, it must be remembered that Jesus
gladly obeyed the Father and voluntarily laid down his life as a ransom (Mark 10:45; cf. John
10:11, 18). There is no evidence for a cosmic quarrel in the Godhead. To deny God‘s love
because of penal substitution is to fly in the face of biblical evidence. In the Bible, God‘s love is
not denied, but demonstrated, on the cross (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 5:8; 8:31-39; Gal. 2:20-21; 1 Jn.
4:10). ―[P]ropitiation is the fruit of the divine love that provided it…[it] is the ground upon
which the divine love operates the channel through which it flows in achieving its end.‖37
Piper‘s words illumine the significance and necessity of Christ‘s death. Reflecting on

35 It should be mentioned at this point, that God is not subservient to an external law forcing him to be
just. No, his own eternal and internal character is the enforcing agent. God must be just, because his nature is holy.
His holiness requires divine retribution against any sin that wars against him. For more on the relationship between
God and His law see Garry Williams, ―The Cross and the Punishment of Sin‖ in Where Wrath and Mercy Meet
(Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster, 2001), 81-98.
36 Stott expounds this proposition in his chapter, ―The Self-Substitution of God,‖ in John Stott, The
Cross of Christ, 133-63.
37 John Murray, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied, 32.

Amen and Amen
Praise God
Johann
 
Within the study of the doctrine on PSA, the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25. Not one of them uses any penal language where PSA gets its doctrine from.

At best PSA is a doctrine based upon an argument from silence in the New Testament.

The N.T. does not use the penal language that was developed during the Reformation in the dark ages as that was how that culture during that time had dealt with people in their judicial system punishing those who disagreed with them, torture and death were a result for many who went against their theology. That was the mentality of those who developed the doctrine we have today called the PSA atonement.

There are many aspects and theories of the atonement that contain truth, and no one theory is 100% correct. There are many different views and aspects to the atonement within orthodoxy. The N.T. writers' emphasis on the atonement is on the side of expiation rather than propitiation, which is only used twice in the epistle of 1 John.

Gods’ wrath is still future and will judge those who reject His Sons atonement for sin. Gods’ wrath was not poured out on the Son for sin otherwise there would be no future wrath from God because of sin. Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The reason my Father loves Me is that I lay down My life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:11; 17-18). Or again, while speaking to the multitudes, Jesus declared: “Whatever the Father does the Son also does” (John 5:19). And Jesus said: “Now my heart is troubled. ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” (John 12:27-28)

The clear picture that emerges from Scripture is that Jesus was not the unfortunate victim of the angry Father. Rather, the Father and the Son were working in concert through the cross to pay for the sins of humanity and make atonement. There is no division of will between the Father and the Son. Jesus’ atonement was done in love which provided covering and forgiveness of sins as He declared was a ransom.

And this view harmonizes with God’s wrath that is still yet to come and was not poured out on Jesus on the cross. Our loving God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11). Our loving Father took pleasure to bruise His Son to reconcile us to God as an offering for our sins. (Isaiah 53:10).

It is by faith in the Son through the message of the gospel that saves and unbelief which condemns. The gospel is for all mankind, all the world, for everyone. God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4). God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers (1 Timothy. 4:10), For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone (Titus 2:11) For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all (Romans 11:32). The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

God sent His Son into the world to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2). and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again (2 Corinthians 5:15). But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

Amen and Amen
Praise God

hope this helps !!!
 
Why I hold to PSA.

Excursus: God is Both Just and the Justifier
This understanding of Isaiah 53 is not without difficulty or debate, for it raises a
question. How can one man pay the penalty for another? Or from a close reading of the Bible,
how can God ―justify the ungodly‖ (Rom. 4:5) when it says, ―He who justifies the wicked and he
who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD‖ (Prov. 17:5)?

Today, the doctrine of the atonement is under fierce attack, and what is at stake is
nothing less than the gospel. For if this doctrine is lost, so is the good news of forgiveness and
eternal life.22

This is why understanding Isaiah 53, exegetically and theologically, is so
important. It details the great effects of the cross, and makes sense of God‘s plan of redemptive
history.23

Even if the doctrines of grace and justice seem at first to be at odds with one another,
as Scripture speaks, the purpose of the cross becomes more apparent.


The message of Isaiah 53
is that Christ‘s cross is the place ―where wrath and mercy meet‖ and salvation is procured.24
John Piper‘s treatment of the theological quandary raised in Isaiah 53 is immensely
helpful and many of his arguments are included here.25
As he wrestles with the divine purpose in
the death of Christ, he begins to resolve matters in the Godhead by asking the question, ―Who-----

22 See Roger Nicole‘s short but powerful post script in The Glory of the Atonement (Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 2004), 445-52. In that brief summary, Nicole warns that rejection of penal substitution inevitably
makes the cross of Christ impotent. In his words, penal substitution is ―the linchpin without which everything else
loses its foundation and flies off the handle so to speak‖ (The Glory of the Atonement, 451).



23 For instance, the disciples on the road to Emmaus could not make sense of the Scriptures or the
events of Jesus‘ passion until Jesus explained to them all that the Scriptures said about him—his suffering and
exaltation (Luke 24).

24 This phrase is taken from a song by Graham Kendrick, entitled ‗Come and See,‘ as cited in a recent
book by the same name which makes an able defense of penal substitution. (David Peterson (ed.), Where Wrath &
Mercy Meet: Proclaiming the Atonement Today (Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster, 2001), xiv.

25 For a full treatment of this subject see John Piper, The Pleasures of God: Meditations on God’s
Delight in Being God (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 2000), 157-178.
10
killed Jesus?‖26

Citing Isaiah 53:10, he answers that God did. ―The LORD was pleased to
bruise him.‖ Behind the senseless violence of wicked men stood the Father. It was according to
his ―definite plan and foreknowledge‖ that Jesus died as the suffering servant (Acts 2:23; cf.
4:27-28). This was done to put sin to death and to end its marring effect on the glory of God.27
Isaiah 42:8 and 48:11 attest to YHWH‘s commitment to his own glory. So too Isaiah
43:6-7 teaches that mankind was created for the glory of God. Yet, the world under Satan‘s
thralldom is imprisoned to sin and wars against God‘s glory. The devil deceived Adam and Eve
to sin in the beginning, and ever since mankind has been God‘s enemy (Rom. 5:8; Eph. 2:1-3).
―All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God‖ (Rom. 3:23). Sin is directly connected to
God‘s glory, and since God is committed to his glory and to the beings created in his image, he
sent his Son to undo the works of the devil and to redeem a people for his glory (1 Jn. 3:8; Tit.
2:14). Yet, the only way to do that is through the death of sin in the death of his son.28
Piper moves from God‘s glory to humanity‘s sin, contending that Jesus died to make a
―propitiation‖ for sins, whereby ―God averted his own wrath through the death of his Son.‖ 29


26 Ibid., 160.
27 Many contemporary formulations of a ―non-violent atonement‖ fail to recognize the gravity of sin.
Thomas Schreiner articulates this glaring deficit as he surveys other views of the atonement in his chapter, ―Penal
Substitution View‖ in The Nature of the Atonement edited by James Beilby and Paul Eddy [Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 2006], 67-98.


28 Thomas Schreiner‘s defense of penal substitution argues along these same lines (―Penal Substitution
View,‖ 67-98). Sin necessitates a penalty to be paid, and only through the payment of that penalty can any sinful
man or woman truly be legally freed from the debt they owe God. This is what is absent in all other models of the
atonement. None of them sufficiently handle the problem of sin. They either minimize it or shift attention to
something else. However, Scripture teaches that this humanity‘s biggest problem and therefore the central issue of
the cross.

29 Piper, The Pleasures of God, 163. Piper explains the necessary use of ―propitiation‖ as the proper
interpretation of hilasterion. He writes on the same page, ―This old word is important because other words like
―expiation‖ and ―sacrifice of atonement‖ do not press forward the idea of appeasing wrath which is in the word. The
point of the word is that God‘s wrath is against the ungodly because of the way they have desecrated his glory, and a
way must be found for this wrath to be averted. This is what happened in the death of Jesus. That is what

11
Often debated as a term originating in Greek mythology, Leon Morris contends that in the Bible
this notion of heathen propitiation is abandoned.30
Still questions of God‘s love and his demand
for a propitiation to satisfy his wrath abound. John Murray‘s treatment addresses these issues:
1) to love and to be propitious are not controvertible terms [i.e. mutually exclusive]. It is
false to suppose that the doctrine…regards propitiation as that which causes or constrains
the divine love… 2) propitiation is not a turning of the wrath of God into love. The
propitiation of the divine wrath, effected in the expiatory work of Christ, is the provision of
God‘s eternal and unchangeable love…3) propitiation does not detract from the love and
mercy of God; it rather enhances the marvel of his love. For it shows the cost that
redemptive love entails…God appeases his own holy wrath in the cross of Christ in order
that the purpose of his love to lost men may be accomplished in accordance…his glory.31
Through the propitiation of God‘s wrath, the mercy of God makes payment to the
wrath of God,32 making a transaction that will once and for all clear Him of injustice and at the
same time bring an end to sin, Satan, and death.33

On the cross, God‘s wisdom is revealed (1
Cor. 1:18ff; Eph 3:10) and the tension of God‘s seething wrath and unfailing mercy are resolved.
As Paul says about Jesus in Romans 3:25-26,
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to
show God‘s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sin.
It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier
of the one who has faith in Jesus.34

propitiation means: God averted his own wrath through the death of his Son (emphasis mine).‖
30 Leon Morris, The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1965), 210-11.
31 John Murray, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1955), 31-32.
32 John Stott captures the essence of this, ―The only way for God‘s holy love to be satisfied is for his
holiness to be directed in judgment upon his appointed substitute, in order that his love may be directed towards us
in forgiveness…Divine love triumphed over divine wrath by divine self-sacrifice. The cross was an act
simultaneously of punishment and amnesty, severity and grace, justice and mercy‖ (The Cross of Christ, 158-59).
33 Though it is out of the purview of this paper, this accomplishment must be understood in an already /
not yet fashion. While Christ‘s work has been completely fulfilled on the cross (John 19:30), the effects of that
propitiatory victory are still being worked out. Much like Nazi-occupied France between D-Day and V-Day, we live
in between the time when Jesus won the decisive victory on the cross and when he will return and reign on the earth.
34 For an excellent treatment of this passage which argues for the historic understanding of penal
substitution see D.A. Carson, ―Atonement in Romans 3:21-26: ‗God presented him as a propitiation,‘‖ in The Glory
of the Atonement, 119-139.
12
Some may ask, ―Couldn‘t God forgive humanity without such a payment?‖ However,
such a cheap forgiveness would militate against his veracity and justice. By forgiving without
payment, God‘s initial warning in Genesis 2:17 and mankind‘s rightful curse would only be vain
words from an inconstant God. This would invariably denigrate the value of God‘s glory. For if
sin impugns His name, and God merely excuses this kind of defiant behavior as accidental or
minimal, the great judge would display reprehensible justice as he dismisses sin without
concomitant justice.35
Instead, by the death of his son, God the Father upholds his justice while
extending forgiveness to all those for whom Christ died.36

Conversely, some question the love of God because of His commitment to his own
glory and the execution of his righteous judgment. Sadly, there are some, who with limited
human understanding, categorize God as a child abuser. Yet, it must be remembered that Jesus
gladly obeyed the Father and voluntarily laid down his life as a ransom (Mark 10:45; cf. John
10:11, 18). There is no evidence for a cosmic quarrel in the Godhead. To deny God‘s love
because of penal substitution is to fly in the face of biblical evidence. In the Bible, God‘s love is
not denied, but demonstrated, on the cross (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 5:8; 8:31-39; Gal. 2:20-21; 1 Jn.
4:10). ―[P]ropitiation is the fruit of the divine love that provided it…[it] is the ground upon
which the divine love operates the channel through which it flows in achieving its end.‖37
Piper‘s words illumine the significance and necessity of Christ‘s death. Reflecting on

35 It should be mentioned at this point, that God is not subservient to an external law forcing him to be
just. No, his own eternal and internal character is the enforcing agent. God must be just, because his nature is holy.
His holiness requires divine retribution against any sin that wars against him. For more on the relationship between
God and His law see Garry Williams, ―The Cross and the Punishment of Sin‖ in Where Wrath and Mercy Meet
(Waynesboro, GA: Paternoster, 2001), 81-98.
36 Stott expounds this proposition in his chapter, ―The Self-Substitution of God,‖ in John Stott, The
Cross of Christ, 133-63.
37 John Murray, Redemption: Accomplished and Applied, 32.

Amen and Amen
Praise God
Johann
where the NT quote and affirm Isaiah 53:4 and 10 ???

An argument from silence fallacy with PSA.

AMEN and AMEN
PRAISE JESUS

hope this helps !!!
 
Why I hold to PSA.

Excursus: God is Both Just and the Justifier
No problem here, and please understand I have no ill feelings towards you or anyone else that believes in the doctrine of PSA.
I too believed in it up until a couple of years ago when the Lord opened my mind and freed me from it and Calvinism at the same time.

This understanding of Isaiah 53 is not without difficulty or debate, for it raises a
question. How can one man pay the penalty for another?
The wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23) So the real question is not how can one man pay the penalty for another, but how does one man receive the wages-payment for the sins of the sinful, redeeming the sinner from death and the grave?

You will never find in the bible that Jesus was punished for our sins; this is what one should see if PSA is true, right?
But what you will find is Jesus offered His life up unto death; to redeem us from our sins by His death. He willingly received the payment for our sins-death to atone for our sins. God accepted His blood-death for our sins and we are now blameless before God by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death justifies us.

The answer to your bolded question is never found in the bible. But what is found is the answer to, how does one redeem the sinner from death and the grave. "Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7)

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Act 20:28)


Or from a close reading of the Bible,
how can God ―justify the ungodly‖ (Rom. 4:5) when it says, ―He who justifies the wicked and he
who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD‖ (Prov. 17:5)?
Again, the answer to the bolded question is clearly given to us in the Bible.

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." (Lev 17:11)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (Joh 3:16,ESV)

"For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2Co 5:21,NLT)

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom 3:21-26)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Rom 5:8-10)

"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:17-19)

What you have read above mentions nothing about God needing to get His pound of flesh to forgive us. What we read is the wisdom, righteousness, and loving grace of God. God proves He is just by setting forth His own Sinless Son to remove the guilt of our sins by giving His life unto death for them. By one man's disobedience judgement and condemnation came to all men, so also by One Man's righteous act the gift of justification-blamelessness came to all men.

What you have read above is how God demonstrates He is just in justifying the sinner. Nothing, not one mention about wrath is there?

Today, the doctrine of the atonement is under fierce attack, and what is at stake is
nothing less than the gospel. For if this doctrine is lost, so is the good news of forgiveness and
eternal life.22
Untrue. The quote is nothing more than the thoughts of a dogmatic person who thinks their understanding is the understanding.

PSA is not the gospel, nor any part of the gospel. Please show me in Acts when Peter preached to the Jews on the day of Penetecost anything about PSA. You will not find it. Why. if it is integral to the gospel?

The onus is not upon us who oppose PSA, but to the adherents to prove it clearly by using scripture. And there is nowhere in the bible that states God poured wrath out upon His Son or any other sin offering.

What is God's wrath for sin? Is it not death?

Did God kill His Son or was it entirely up to His Son to lay down His life for our sins?
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Joh 10:17-18)

"Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last." (Luk 23:46)


InterVarsity Press, 2004), 445-52. In that brief summary, Nicole warns that rejection of penal substitution inevitably
makes the cross of Christ impotent. In his words, penal substitution is ―the linchpin without which everything else
loses its foundation and flies off the handle so to speak‖ (The Glory of the Atonement, 451).
Again untrue, and nothing more than dogmatism. There is nothing impotent about the scriptural evidence that God loved us and by His grace saved us from His coming wrath upon those who will not repent from a life of sinful indulgences and believe in Jesus Christ.

The adage, "the proof is in the pudding" is when one realizes there is zero scriptural evidence to support PSA. Zero in the OT and NT that support God pouring wrath upon His Son or any other sin offering.

But over and over again we read about God's wisdom in Christ; that He sent Him to offer His Sinless Life up for our sins on a cross, to redeem us by His blood, receiving the payment for our sins in His flesh on a cross to redeem those under the first covenant, with His blood inagurating the second covenant, thus bringing us Gentiles into the promise God gave to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed by his seed.

It is "natural" to think Jesus had to receive what we deserve, the vitriol wrath of God. But this is not the graceful character of God that He has shown us. He has shown that He loves His enemies. "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) And "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10)


26 Ibid., 160.
27 Many contemporary formulations of a ―non-violent atonement‖ fail to recognize the gravity of sin.
Thomas Schreiner articulates this glaring deficit as he surveys other views of the atonement in his chapter, ―Penal
Substitution View‖ in The Nature of the Atonement edited by James Beilby and Paul Eddy [Downers Grove, IL:
InterVarsity Press, 2006], 67-98.
Again, an untrue statement by the writer. The violent act of a Just God unjustly condemning the Righteous and setting free the unrighteous is what PSA advocates. This of course is wrong that even a child knows so. No one who is just punishes the righteous and sets free the unrighteous. But a just person, by his grace, may accept the offering of a righteous person to receive what the unrighteous should receive freeing them from their unrighteousness....Welcome to God's grace and His love as declared in the bible.

I oppose PSA because it is not biblical. It is an erroneous doctrine of men.

Did our Lord have to die to atone for our sins? Yes

Why did He die on a cross?

  • "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Heb 9:15)
  • Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." (Gal 3:13-14)
  • In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18)
God Bless
 
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No problem here, and please understand I have no ill feelings towards you or anyone else that believes in the doctrine of PSA.
I too believed in it up until a couple of years ago when the Lord opened my mind and freed me from it and Calvinism at the same time.


The wages of sin is death. (Rom 6:23) So the real question is not how can one man pay the penalty for another, but how does one man receive the wages-payment for the sins of the sinful, redeeming the sinner from death and the grave?

You will never find in the bible that Jesus was punished for our sins; this is what one should see if PSA is true, right?
But what you will find is Jesus offered His life up unto death; to redeem us from our sins by His death. He willingly received the payment for our sins-death to atone for our sins. God accepted His blood-death for our sins and we are now blameless before God by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death justifies us.

The answer to your bolded question is never found in the bible. But what is found is the answer to, how does one redeem the sinner from death and the grave. "Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;"

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7)

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Act 20:28)



Again, the answer to the bolded question is clearly given to us in the Bible.

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." (Lev 17:11)

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (Joh 3:16,ESV)

"For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ." (2Co 5:21,NLT)

"But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed" (Rom 3:21-25)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Eph 2:8-9)

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." (Rom 5:8-10)

"For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." (Rom 5:17-19)

What you have read above mentions nothing about God needing to get His pound of flesh to forgive us. What we read is the wisdom, righteousness, and loving grace of God. God proves He is just by setting forth His own Sinless Son to remove the guilt of our sins by giving His life unto death for them. By one man's disobedience judgement and condemnation came to all men, so also by One Man's righteous act the gift of justification-blamelessness came to all men.

What you have read above is how God demonstrates He is just in justifying the sinner. Nothing, not one mention about wrath is there?


Untrue. The quote is nothing more than the thoughts of a dogmatic person who thinks their understanding is the understanding.

PSA is not the gospel, nor any part of the gospel. Please show me in Acts when Peter preached to the Jews on the day of Penetecost anything about PSA. You will not find it. Why. if it is integral to the gospel?

The onus is not upon us who oppose PSA, but to the adherents to prove it clearly by using scripture. And there is nowhere in the bible that states God poured wrath out upon His Son or any other sin offering.

What is God's wrath for sin? Is it not death?

Did God kill His Son or was it entirely up to His Son to lay down His life for our sins?
"Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (Joh 10:17-18)

"Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And having said this he breathed his last." (Luk 23:46)



Again untrue, and nothing more than dogmatism. There is nothing impotent about the scriptural evidence that God loved us and by His grace saved us from His coming wrath upon those who will not repent from a life of sinful indulgences and believe in Jesus Christ.

The adage, "the proof is in the pudding" is when one realizes there is zero scriptural evidence to support PSA. Zero in the OT and NT that support God pouring wrath upon His Son or any other sin offering.

But over and over again we read about God's wisdom in Christ; that He sent Him to offer His Sinless Life up for our sins on a cross, to redeem us by His blood, receiving the payment for our sins in His flesh on a cross to redeem those under the first covenant, with His blood inagurating the second covenant, thus bringing us Gentiles into the promise God gave to Abraham that all the nations would be blessed by his seed.

It is "natural" to think Jesus had to receive what we deserve, the vitriol wrath of God. But this is not the graceful character of God that He has shown us. He has shown that He loves His enemies. "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8) And "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10)



Again, an untrue statement by the writer. The violent act of a Just God unjustly condemning the Righteous and setting free the unrighteous is what PSA advocates. This of course is wrong that even a child knows so. No one who is just punishes the righteous and sets free the unrighteous. But a just person, by his grace, may accept the offering of a righteous person to receive what the unrighteous should receive freeing them from their unrighteousness....Welcome to God's grace and His love as declared in the bible.

I oppose PSA because it is not biblical. It is an erroneous doctrine of men.

Did our Lord have to die to atone for our sins? Yes

Why did He die on a cross?

  • "Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant." (Heb 9:15)
  • Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith." (Gal 3:13-14)
  • In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice." (Gen 22:18)
God Bless
Amen brother preach it !!!!
 
And who determined that wicked men would crucify Christ? God did! God uses means to his ends.

Men were "wicked" when there was no Christ to Crucify.

So, God didn't design men to be wicked so that He could send Holy Jesus to them to torture.

God's foreknowledge KNEW this would happen.......and what is controlled is the timing., as God sent Jesus when what was prophesied to happen, was TIMED by God, to occur.

This is always How God reveals the prophetic into this world.........
You have the revelation of it, in the Scriptures..... before you have the TIME.. it occurs., as that is another way that the Bible is proven to be true and that God is proven to be REAL.

This is also found currently as "the TIME of the Gentiles" that is continuing until this is over, and then you have the Rapture that precedes the beginning of the Trib.

All this is already REVEALED by the BIBLE, as God's Foreknowledge..... but, its all in GOD's TIMING when it ends and begins, and ends and begins.
 
And who determined that wicked men would crucify Christ? God did! God uses means to his ends.
yet God did not cause their sin- His foreknowledge of sin is not the same as predestining acts of sin. Calvinists like to equate them and conflate them. They are not one in the same.
 
Where is the wrath?

Nowhere in the bible is it mentioned that God the Father poured wrath out upon His own Son that He sent to save us?

Surely, something as important as that would be the central theme expounded upon by the NT authors.

So where is it taught by any NT writer?

To put things into perspective from the KJV.
The word punish is used one time in the NT. (Acts 4:21)
The word punished is used four times in the NT. (Acts 22:5, Acts 26:11, 2Th 1:9, 2Pe 2:9)
The word punishment is used four times in the NT. (Matt 25:46, 2Cor 2:6, Heb 10:29, 1 Pe 2:14)
The word wrath is used 38 times in the NT

Of all these instances, not one time are any of these words used towards our Lord not once.

What about purgatory. Is it a truthful doctrine? Nothing is mentioned about purgatory and yet it is believed by many people.

No matter your belief, the bible is the baseline for doctrine. If it is not in it, then don't believe it.

Jesus never suffered the wrath of God. You cannot find it stated, implied, or taught by any NT author, and the Apostle Paul is very concise and clear in his letters.

Just like purgatory is an erroneous doctrine fashioned by the uninspired thoughts of man, so too is the doctrine of PSA and God pouring wrath out upon His Son.

If you disagree, then the onus is upon you to use the bible in context and prove it.

What you will find is the purpose of His death and resurrection, and none of it had to do with God killing His Son to appease His anger for our sins.

Think about it just a minute. Would you being angry at someone to the point of killing them take that anger out on your own son who always did you right and kill him instead, so you could feel better about the person who made you angry? I certainly hope not! What kind of person does that? More importantly, what kind of message does that speak about God if we think He did that?...And most importantly, this is never mentioned in the bible!

We are saved because God loves us and shown us mercy. No wrath required to love us and save us.

God Bless
Back to the great OP brother. :)
 
Men were "wicked" when there was no Christ to Crucify.

So, God didn't design men to be wicked so that He could send Holy Jesus to them to torture.

God's foreknowledge KNEW this would happen.......and what is controlled is the timing., as God sent Jesus when what was prophesied to happen, was TIMED by God, to occur.

This is always How God reveals the prophetic into this world.........
You have the revelation of it, in the Scriptures..... before you have the TIME.. it occurs., as that is another way that the Bible is proven to be true and that God is proven to be REAL.

This is also found currently as "the TIME of the Gentiles" that is continuing until this is over, and then you have the Rapture that precedes the beginning of the Trib.

All this is already REVEALED by the BIBLE, as God's Foreknowledge..... but, its all in GOD's TIMING when it ends and begins, and ends and begins.
ditto
 
Where is the wrath?

Nowhere in the bible is it mentioned that God the Father poured wrath out upon His own Son that He sent to save us?
Ps 22.
What about purgatory. Is it a truthful doctrine? Nothing is mentioned about purgatory and yet it is believed by many people.
Pure Garbage. "Purgatory" is from PLATO'S Philosophy, adopted as a "Cash Cow" by the Roman Catholic religious system
No matter your belief, the bible is the baseline for doctrine. If it is not in it, then don't believe it.
Good advice.
 
Men were "wicked" when there was no Christ to Crucify.

So, God didn't design men to be wicked so that He could send Holy Jesus to them to torture.

God's foreknowledge KNEW this would happen.......and what is controlled is the timing., as God sent Jesus when what was prophesied to happen, was TIMED by God, to occur.

This is always How God reveals the prophetic into this world.........
You have the revelation of it, in the Scriptures..... before you have the TIME.. it occurs., as that is another way that the Bible is proven to be true and that God is proven to be REAL.

This is also found currently as "the TIME of the Gentiles" that is continuing until this is over, and then you have the Rapture that precedes the beginning of the Trib.

All this is already REVEALED by the BIBLE, as God's Foreknowledge..... but, its all in GOD's TIMING when it ends and begins, and ends and begins.
The acts of the wicked, in falsely condemning, then crucifying the Lord, were not only foreknown (because God had planned them before the foundation of the world), but were also according to his determinate counsel. God determined them to happen, as he does with everything that happens.
 
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