Oh it is your theology. If He does not stop it then apparently He is okay with it.
Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun
- Thread starter civic
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civic
Well-known member
You have questions I have biblical answers to your unbelief and skepticism.
Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).
How do the Calvinists answer?
1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.
2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.
3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..
4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.
5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?
6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.
7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).
how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?
Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil
Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
hope this helps !!!
More deflection. The question is simple. Why does your god simply sit by and watch "innocent" children be raped and murdered? Sometimes sending one nation against another to do just that. We're still waiting.
civic
Well-known member
Read with comprehension it’s been addressed and refuted
Rockson
Well-known member
What nonsense! Anyone can clearly see it's not.
He's OK with the allowance of it for a period of time although it causes him much pain and grief but here's the thing. You don't think it does cause him pain and grief. And you actually think he imparts it by ordaining all things which sorry is a diabolical thing to say about the Spirit of grace. Your theology on this particular matter is a mud pit. If you want to roll around in it you do so yourself.
No, actually it doesn't. Lets try again. Why does your god simply sit back and watch the murder and rape of "innocent" children when He could stop it?
Then why doesn't He stop it since it's causing Him so much pain and grief? These poor "innocent" children.
civic
Well-known member
Your god determined it
Rockson
Well-known member
Been explained with clarity. Now how about you tell us without seeking to stonewall us just how you feel God wants insidious type of sins to take place AND....ORDAINS them to. And then tell us how that lines up with the solid teaching and declaration that God is LOVE. 1 Jn 4:8
You explained nothing. Why does your god allow innocent children to be raped and murdered when He could stop it? Why does He send one nation against the other to do just that in the OT?
And your god sits back with your popcorn and watches it. He could stop it but what fun would that be right?
Rockson
Well-known member
I told you why? It's all in my post #61.
If you don't agree with what I said in that post then at least tell me what I did say. I'm sure you can do that can't you? It's only two small paragraphs of words.
Rockson
Well-known member
Nobody has ever said God doesn't bring judgments to nations. All Non Calvinists believe that. That's a far, far cry however from trying to assert EVERY thought and action carried out by men on the Earth however insidious, base, impure and corrupt is God ordained. Your claims that God is behind ALL things I'm sorry but it's a diabolical way of thinking about the character of God. I'm sure he's speaking through his servants to Calvinists a message to stop and give him a break and stop misrepresenting his character down upon the Earth. It's called being a part of a problem and not a part of the solution.
Johann
Well-known member
God's Sovereignty and Human Responsibility
While God is sovereign and nothing happens outside His will, Scripture also clearly shows that humans are responsible for their sinful actions and thoughts.
James 1:13-15:
"Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God,' for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."
This passage emphasizes that sin originates from human desires, not from God.
2. God's Holiness and the Nature of Sin
God's holy nature means He cannot endorse or ordain sin. He is separate from evil and cannot be associated with it.
Habakkuk 1:13:
"You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?"
This verse underscores God’s purity and intolerance of evil.
3. Human Free Will
The Bible teaches that humans have the capacity to choose, and this includes the choice to sin or obey God.
Deuteronomy 30:19:
"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."
This demonstrates that humans are given the choice between good and evil.
4. God's Permissive Will
God allows humans to exercise free will, even when it leads to sin, but this does not mean He ordains or approves of sinful actions.
Romans 1:24:
"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves."
Here, God allows people to follow their sinful desires, showing His permissive will, not active ordination of sin.
5. God's Judgment on Sin
God holds individuals accountable for their actions, demonstrating that sinful actions are not ordained by Him but are subject to His judgment.
Romans 2:6-8:
"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."
This passage highlights individual accountability before God.
6. Examples of Human Sin and Divine Disapproval
Throughout the Bible, there are examples of human sinfulness and God’s disapproval and judgment of those actions.
Genesis 6:5-6:
"The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart."
This shows God's grief over human sinfulness, not His ordination of it.
Conclusion
While God is sovereign over all creation, Scripture makes it clear that He does not ordain every sinful thought and action. Instead, humans are responsible for their own sinful choices, which stem from their desires and free will. God allows these actions within His permissive will but does not endorse or cause them, and He holds individuals accountable for their sins.
Is this better @Rockson?
Rockson
Well-known member
Yes, very, very good at least the latter parts of what you say.
civic
Well-known member
Amen brother
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
This is not a valid definition of "sovereign". Many things happen outside of "God's will". Wind blows. Rain falls. Man has power to operate within Sovereign boundaries.
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
God sets boundaries and defines limits. Man has the power to operate freely within boundaries.
That is why James talks of the "power of the tongue".
Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Matthew 10:29 `Are not two sparrows sold for an assar? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father;
Johann
Well-known member
Nothing happens outside God's will-
Proverbs 16:9:
"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
This verse highlights that while humans may make plans, it is ultimately God who determines their path.
Proverbs 19:21:
"Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand."
This indicates that God's purpose prevails over human intentions.
Isaiah 46:9-10:
"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.’"
These verses affirm that God’s counsel and purpose will stand and be accomplished.
Daniel 4:35:
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, ‘What have you done?’"
This shows that God acts according to His will without opposition.
Matthew 10:29-31:
"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows."
These verses illustrate God’s sovereignty over even the smallest events.
Acts 2:23:
"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
This verse shows that the crucifixion of Jesus was according to God’s definite plan and foreknowledge.
Acts 4:27-28:
"For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."
Here, the actions of those who crucified Jesus were part of God’s predestined plan.
Romans 8:28:
"And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
This verse emphasizes that all things, including events in believers' lives, are under God’s sovereign control and work together for good.
Ephesians 1:11:
"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
This affirms that God works all things according to His will and purpose.
James 4:13-15:
"Come now, you who say, ‘Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit’—yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, ‘If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.’"
This teaches that human plans are subject to God’s will.
These scriptures collectively affirm that God's sovereign will encompasses all events, big and small, and nothing occurs outside of His divine purpose and plan.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I quoted two verses that you ignore to post Matt 10:29.
Matthew 10:29 doesn't say God murdered a sparrow. That is how you're false understanding of Sovereignty. Many natural things could have killed the sparrow.
Care to deal with what I actually said about Acts 17:26-27?
