Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun

You think with your head and not the heart.


The Old Testament contains several passages where God commands or determines actions that result in the death of children. Here are at least ten examples, with brief context for each:


Genesis 6:11-13, 7:21-23 - The Flood: God determines to destroy all flesh, including children, with a flood due to the corruption and violence on the earth.

"Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah,
'I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.'" (Genesis 6:11-13)



"And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark." (Genesis 7:21-23)

Exodus 11:4-5, 12:29-30 - The Tenth Plague: God sends the angel of death to kill all the firstborn in Egypt, including children.

"So Moses said, 'Thus says the Lord: About midnight I will go out in the midst of Egypt, and every firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sits on his throne, even to the firstborn of the slave girl who is behind the handmill, and all the firstborn of the cattle.'" (Exodus 11:4-5)
"At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians. And there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)
Deuteronomy 2:33-34 - Destruction of Sihon and Og: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Sihon, including children.

"And the Lord our God gave him over to us, and we defeated him and his sons and all his people. And we captured all his cities at that time and devoted to destruction every city, men, women, and children. We left no survivors." (Deuteronomy 2:33-34)
Deuteronomy 3:6 -
Destruction of Og, King of Bashan: God commands Israel to destroy the people of Og, including children.

"And we devoted them to destruction, as we did to Sihon the king of Heshbon, devoting to destruction every city, men, women, and children." (Deuteronomy 3:6)
1 Samuel 15:2-3 -
Destruction of the Amalekites: God commands Saul to utterly destroy the Amalekites, including children.

"Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
Joshua 6:17, 21 -
Destruction of Jericho: God commands Israel to destroy the city of Jericho, including children.

"And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent." (Joshua 6:17)
"Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)
Joshua 10:28, 40 -
Conquests in Canaan: God commands Israel to destroy various cities and their inhabitants, including children.

"As for Makkedah, Joshua captured it on that day and struck it, and its king, with the edge of the sword. He devoted to destruction every person in it; he left none remaining. And he did to the king of Makkedah just as he had done to the king of Jericho." (Joshua 10:28)
"So Joshua struck the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but devoted to destruction all that breathed, just as the Lord God of Israel commanded." (Joshua 10:40)
2 Kings 2:23-24 -
Elisha and the Bears: God allows bears to kill children who mocked Elisha.

"He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!' And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys." (2 Kings 2:23-24)
Jeremiah 19:9 -
Prophecy of Jerusalem's Siege: God foretells that during the siege of Jerusalem, parents will eat their children due to the extreme conditions.

"And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them." (Jeremiah 19:9)
Lamentations 2:20-22 - Siege of Jerusalem:
The prophet Jeremiah laments the destruction of Jerusalem where children perish as part of God’s judgment.

"Look, O Lord, and see! With whom have you dealt thus? Should women eat the fruit of their womb, the children of their tender care? Should priest and prophet be killed in the sanctuary of the Lord? In the dust of the streets lie the young and the old; my young women and my young men have fallen by the sword; you have killed them in the day of your anger, slaughtering without pity." (Lamentations 2:20-22)

These passages illustrate instances in the Old Testament where divine judgment or command involves the death of children, either directly by God's hand or through the actions of His people.



In examining the Old Testament passages where divine actions result in the death of children, it's essential to explore the concept of God's determinism from a scholarly perspective. God's determinism, in this context, refers to the theological belief that God has predetermined or ordained certain events or outcomes according to His sovereign will and purpose. In Hebrew thought and language, several terms and concepts capture this notion.

Key Hebrew Terms and Concepts
גְּזֵרָה (Gezerah) - Decree or Decision

This term often refers to a divine decree or decision that is irrevocable. For instance, in the context of prophetic declarations, a "gezerah" implies a predetermined outcome decided by God.


עֵצָה (Etsah) - Counsel or Plan


This term can denote the plans or purposes of God, indicating that events unfold according to His divine counsel. For example, Isaiah 46:10 mentions God's counsel standing firm, highlighting the concept of His sovereign plans.

פְּקֻדָּה (Pekuddah) - Command or Charge

This term can imply a divine command or charge, reflecting God's authoritative determination in certain matters.

צָוָה (Tzavah) - To Command

The verb "tzavah" means to command or order, reflecting God's authoritative directive, which brings about specific outcomes.
מַחֲשָׁבוֹת (Machashavot) - Thoughts or Plans


This term, often translated as "thoughts" or "plans," reflects the intentional and purposeful design of God. Jeremiah 29:11, for instance, refers to God's plans for His people.

Scholarly Definitions and Interpretations
Divine Sovereignty:

Scholars define divine determinism in terms of God's absolute sovereignty. This means God exercises complete control over the universe, orchestrating all events to fulfill His purposes. This sovereignty is evident in passages where God explicitly commands or causes events, demonstrating His ultimate authority and control.


Theological Determinism:

Theological determinism suggests that all events, including human actions, are determined by God's will. In Hebrew thought, this is closely linked with the understanding of God as the ultimate authority who decrees and foreordains outcomes.


Predestination:

In the context of these Old Testament passages, predestination refers to the belief that God has preordained certain events and outcomes, including the judgment of nations and individuals. This is reflected in the predetermined judgments and decrees seen in the stories of the flood, the plagues of Egypt, and the destruction of various peoples.


Scriptural Examples and Their Deterministic Elements
Genesis 6:11-13, 7:21-23 (The Flood):

The decision to destroy all flesh is a divine decree (גְּזֵרָה), reflecting God's predetermined plan to judge the earth for its corruption.
Exodus 11:4-5, 12:29-30 (The Tenth Plague):


The killing of the firstborn in Egypt is a direct command (צָוָה) from God, demonstrating His sovereign will in executing judgment.
Deuteronomy 2:33-34, 3:6 (Destruction of Sihon and Og):


God's command to utterly destroy these peoples reflects His predetermined judgment (פְּקֻדָּה) against them.
1 Samuel 15:2-3 (Destruction of the Amalekites):

The directive to annihilate the Amalekites, including children, is a divine command (צָוָה) reflecting God's judgment based on His sovereign plan.
Joshua 6:17, 21; 10:28, 40 (Destruction of Jericho and other cities):


The instructions to destroy entire cities as part of the conquest of Canaan are seen as the execution of God's predetermined plans (עֵצָה)
.

Conclusion
The scholarly Hebrew definitions of God's determinism revolve around concepts of divine decree (גְּזֵרָה), command (צָוָה), counsel (עֵצָה), and plan (מַחֲשָׁבוֹת). These terms underscore the belief in God's ultimate sovereignty and authority over all events, including those resulting in the death of children. In the Old Testament, these instances reflect God's predetermined judgments and actions, highlighting His control and purposeful design in the unfolding of history.

Johann
And that deals with the truth of what I stated how?

"In compatibilism those desires are determined by God"

This is not an issue of judgment but the source of all of man's evil actions

In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11). In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html


Do you understand in compatibilism the rapist desire to rape is given by God.

The torturer desire to torture, given by God.

The murderer's desire to murder, given by God.
 
And that deals with the truth of what I stated how?

"In compatibilism those desires are determined by God"

This is not an issue of judgment but the source of all of man's evil actions

In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11). In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html


Do you understand in compatibilism the rapist desire to rape is given by God.

The torturer desire to torture, given by God.

The murderer's desire to murder, given by God.
God moves the kings heart where He wishes it to go.
 
You think with your head and not the heart.
OK Johann how about we do that. So you and your backer Presby (for I see they spoke in favor of your assessment) believe God's judgement, Noah's flood, plus the incidences where children were killed as Israel was going into the land....you equate that to the same thing as the most insidious things one can imagine the on going exploitation of a child in ways it's hard to even speak of (rape and things of that nature) ....to you two it all the same thing? Nope sorry but you're way off the rails and wrong. On Christian Think Tank there are some writings about this, and thoroughly look at the subject and I'd say to join both themes together as one as you two do you make a horrible mistake.


Here is just a few lines but I'd encourage the reading of the whole piece from the link,

(instead of being killed--as homeless orphans--by a combination of starvation, wild beasts, exposure, and disease; or instead of being captured and sold as slaves by neighboring tribes, for the older ones perhaps?)
 
"In compatibilism those desires are determined by God"

This is not an issue of judgment but the source of all of man's evil actions

In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11). In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html


Do you understand in compatibilism the rapist desire to rape is given by God.

The torturer desire to torture, given by God.

The murderer's desire to murder, given by God.
Maybe-just maybe, you should read the Scriptures for yourself and not give me a link to Monergism?
Understanding Compatibilism
Definition:
Compatibilism is the theological position that God's sovereign control over all events is compatible with human free will. It asserts that humans act according to their desires and choices, but these desires and choices occur within God's sovereign decree.

Scriptural Basis:

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

Philippians 2:12-13: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

2. Human Responsibility and God's Sovereignty
Human Responsibility:

While compatibilism holds that God's sovereignty includes the determination of human desires, it also maintains human responsibility for actions. The Bible consistently holds individuals accountable for their choices.

James 1:13-15: "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God,' for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."


God's Sovereignty:
God’s sovereignty means that He is in control of all things, but it does not imply that He is the author of sin or that He directly implants evil desires in humans.

Habakkuk 1:13: "You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?"

1 John 1:5: "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."


3. Compatibilism and Evil Desires
Origin of Evil Desires:
While compatibilism acknowledges God’s sovereignty, it distinguishes between God’s permissive will and His decretive will. God allows human beings to make choices that can lead to sin, but He does not cause sin.

Genesis 50:20: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

Permissive Will:
God permits evil to occur, using it to accomplish His greater purposes without being its direct cause.

Romans 1:24-28: Describes how God "gave them up" to their sinful desires as a form of judgment, indicating God’s permissive will allowing human sinfulness to run its course.


4. Addressing the Implications
Compatibilism and Evil Actions:
The idea that God determines desires in compatibilism does not mean He implants sinful desires. Rather, He sovereignly allows individuals to act according to their nature, which is fallen and inclined to sin due to original sin.

Moral Accountability:
Humans are morally accountable for their actions. The Bible emphasizes that while God is sovereign, humans act freely according to their desires and are responsible for their choices.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

God’s Good Purposes:
Even in the presence of evil, God’s purposes are ultimately good, and He works all things for His glory and the good of those who love Him.

Romans 8:28: "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
Conclusion

In summary, compatibilism holds that God's sovereign will and human free will are compatible. While God is sovereign over all events, He does not directly implant evil desires in humans. Instead, humans are responsible for their actions, and God's sovereign plan encompasses even human sinfulness to achieve His greater purposes. This understanding aligns with the biblical narrative, which upholds both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

Genesis 50:20:

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
This verse demonstrates how human intentions (evil) and God's sovereign plan (good) work together.
Exodus 4:21:

"And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.'"
Here, God's sovereign action (hardening Pharaoh’s heart) coexists with Pharaoh’s responsibility for his decisions.
Deuteronomy 30:19:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."
This verse emphasizes human choice within the framework of God's sovereign provision of options.
Joshua 11:20:

"For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses."
God’s sovereign action of hardening hearts leads to a specific outcome, yet the people are still responsible for their actions.
Proverbs 16:9:

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
Human plans and divine sovereignty are both affirmed in this verse.
Isaiah 10:5-7:

"Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy, and to cut off nations not a few."
Assyria acts out of its own intentions, yet it fulfills God’s sovereign purpose as the rod of His anger.
Acts 2:23:

"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
Jesus’ crucifixion was predestined by God, yet carried out by responsible human agents.
Acts 4:27-28:

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."
Human actions against Jesus were predestined by God, showcasing the compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility.
Philippians 2:12-13:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Believers are to actively work out their salvation, yet it is God who works in them to will and act according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:11:

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
God’s sovereign will is at work in all things, including human actions and decisions.
These verses collectively illustrate the compatibilist view that God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are not mutually exclusive but are integrated within the biblical narrative.

Johann.
 
OK Johann how about we do that. So you and your backer Presby (for I see they spoke in favor of your assessment) believe God's judgement, Noah's flood, plus the incidences where children were killed as Israel was going into the land....you equate that to the same thing as the most insidious things one can imagine the on going exploitation of a child in ways it's hard to even speak of (rape and things of that nature) ....to you two it all the same thing? Nope sorry but you're way off the rails and wrong. On Christian Think Tank there are some writings about this, and thoroughly look at the subject and I'd say to join both themes together as one as you two do you make a horrible mistake.
Sorry @Rockson -don't make an appeal to emotions, deal with the Scriptures.
 
Maybe-just maybe, you should read the Scriptures for yourself and not give me a link to Monergism?
Understanding Compatibilism
Definition:
Compatibilism is the theological position that God's sovereign control over all events is compatible with human free will. It asserts that humans act according to their desires and choices, but these desires and choices occur within God's sovereign decree.

Scriptural Basis:

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

Philippians 2:12-13: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."


2. Human Responsibility and God's Sovereignty
Human Responsibility:

While compatibilism holds that God's sovereignty includes the determination of human desires, it also maintains human responsibility for actions. The Bible consistently holds individuals accountable for their choices.

James 1:13-15: "Let no one say when he is tempted, 'I am being tempted by God,' for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."


God's Sovereignty:
God’s sovereignty means that He is in control of all things, but it does not imply that He is the author of sin or that He directly implants evil desires in humans.

Habakkuk 1:13: "You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?"

1 John 1:5: "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."


3. Compatibilism and Evil Desires
Origin of Evil Desires:
While compatibilism acknowledges God’s sovereignty, it distinguishes between God’s permissive will and His decretive will. God allows human beings to make choices that can lead to sin, but He does not cause sin.

Genesis 50:20: "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."

Acts 2:23: "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."

Permissive Will:
God permits evil to occur, using it to accomplish His greater purposes without being its direct cause.

Romans 1:24-28: Describes how God "gave them up" to their sinful desires as a form of judgment, indicating God’s permissive will allowing human sinfulness to run its course.


4. Addressing the Implications
Compatibilism and Evil Actions:
The idea that God determines desires in compatibilism does not mean He implants sinful desires. Rather, He sovereignly allows individuals to act according to their nature, which is fallen and inclined to sin due to original sin.

Moral Accountability:
Humans are morally accountable for their actions. The Bible emphasizes that while God is sovereign, humans act freely according to their desires and are responsible for their choices.

Ezekiel 18:20: "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

God’s Good Purposes:
Even in the presence of evil, God’s purposes are ultimately good, and He works all things for His glory and the good of those who love Him.

Romans 8:28: "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
Conclusion

In summary, compatibilism holds that God's sovereign will and human free will are compatible. While God is sovereign over all events, He does not directly implant evil desires in humans. Instead, humans are responsible for their actions, and God's sovereign plan encompasses even human sinfulness to achieve His greater purposes. This understanding aligns with the biblical narrative, which upholds both God's sovereignty and human responsibility.

Genesis 50:20:

"As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today."
This verse demonstrates how human intentions (evil) and God's sovereign plan (good) work together.
Exodus 4:21:

"And the Lord said to Moses, 'When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.'"
Here, God's sovereign action (hardening Pharaoh’s heart) coexists with Pharaoh’s responsibility for his decisions.
Deuteronomy 30:19:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."
This verse emphasizes human choice within the framework of God's sovereign provision of options.
Joshua 11:20:

"For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses."
God’s sovereign action of hardening hearts leads to a specific outcome, yet the people are still responsible for their actions.
Proverbs 16:9:

"The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps."
Human plans and divine sovereignty are both affirmed in this verse.
Isaiah 10:5-7:

"Woe to Assyria, the rod of my anger; the staff in their hands is my fury! Against a godless nation I send him, and against the people of my wrath I command him to take spoil and seize plunder, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. But he does not so intend, and his heart does not so think; but it is in his heart to destroy, and to cut off nations not a few."
Assyria acts out of its own intentions, yet it fulfills God’s sovereign purpose as the rod of His anger.
Acts 2:23:

"This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men."
Jesus’ crucifixion was predestined by God, yet carried out by responsible human agents.
Acts 4:27-28:

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."
Human actions against Jesus were predestined by God, showcasing the compatibility of divine sovereignty and human responsibility.
Philippians 2:12-13:

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
Believers are to actively work out their salvation, yet it is God who works in them to will and act according to His purpose.
Ephesians 1:11:

"In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."
God’s sovereign will is at work in all things, including human actions and decisions.
These verses collectively illustrate the compatibilist view that God’s sovereignty and human responsibility are not mutually exclusive but are integrated within the biblical narrative.

Johann.
You don’t know anything about Calvinism. One minute you are against it and another you are for it. You are all over the map
 
Do you understand in compatibilism the rapist desire to rape is given by God.

The torturer desire to torture, given by God.

The murderer's desire to murder, given by God.
The Bible demolishes that Calvinists position on God determining or ordaining everything all throughout the scriptures. Here's one prime example,

They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing! Jer 19:5

And yet Calvinists would utter in the face of God, "Yes you did command it and you did determine it! There's no way you could have not have why? Because it happened!"

HE DID NOT. And don't try to spin around and come at it from a different direction......when he says many things that happen on the earth it was never ever a thing that was on his mind that he someway secretly desired it.......HE DID NOT. I'd encourage each one to let that truth sink down into their hearts.
 
The Bible demolishes that Calvinists position on God determining or ordaining everything all throughout the scriptures. Here's one prime example,

They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing! Jer 19:5

And yet Calvinists would utter in the face of God, "Yes you did command it and you did determine it! There's no way you could have not have why? Because it happened!"

HE DID NOT. And don't try to spin around and come at it from a different direction......when he says many things that happen on the earth it was never ever a thing that was on his mind that he someway secretly desired it.......HE DID NOT. I'd encourage each one to let that truth sink down into their hearts.
Yes indeed it does !
 
And that deals with the truth of what I stated how?

"In compatibilism those desires are determined by God"

This is not an issue of judgment but the source of all of man's evil actions

In order to understand this better theologians have come up with the term "compatibilism" to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11). In light of Scripture, (according to compatibilism), human choices are exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism. https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/qna/sovereignfree.html


Do you understand in compatibilism the rapist desire to rape is given by God.

The torturer desire to torture, given by God.

The murderer's desire to murder, given by God.
the opposition has no clue and the culpable party in their own belief system.
 
Sorry @Rockson -don't make an appeal to emotions, deal with the Scriptures.
Nonsense I'm telling you to look at the historical context of what was happening and why in the things you brought up and showing you you can't rightly equate both things (which we were talking about) as being the same.
 
Did God really determine evil and sin as Calvinism teaches ?

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history–and according to John Piper this includes every one of your personal, besetting sins (quote below). Just think about the insidious implications of such a view. If a rapist or pedophile were to declare in a courtroom, “God caused me to do it!” we would denouce him as a liar or a lunatic. However when a Calvinist declares more a less the same thing behind their pulpit (substituting “caused” for “decreed” or “determined”), he is extolled as being biblical!


I cannot tell you how often I hear people retort, “That’s not what Calvinists believe! I’m a Calvinist and I don’t believe God predetermined all my sin!” My typical response is, “Well then welcome to Arminianism because you certainly can’t be a Calvinist.” Usually this is not received very well because they have already been indoctrinated and propagandized into believing that Arminianism is a man-centered, man-glorifying, anti-grace heresy. More often than not the people I speak of are novice Calvinists who have been hoodwinked into a high-Calvinist, Reformed theology by a Piper sermon that conveniently left out all the ugly, sinister implications and absurdities that accompany swallowing Calvinism in toto.


If you are a recent devotee of Calvinism I can only imagine that I have only precious seconds to prove the indisputable assertion that Calvinism-Reformed theology is founded on the tenet that God sovereignly predetermines (whether through hard determinism or compatibilism) every decision and choice humans make–including sin and evil.


Here are a list of quotes from leading, mainstream Calvinists over the years that speak of this inescapable fact (I offer follow-up comments to help clarify the remarks and to the best of my knowledge have taken no one out of context):


*All bold type and emphasis is mine*


John Calvin:


*** “Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.”[1]


[The question must be asked—how are men held responsible for sinful choices that flow out of wills that are “governed as to move exactly in the course which God has destined?”]


*** “Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.”[2]


[In Calvinism God is the logical origin and thus author of every sinful thought or choice men make. How else to explain Calvinism’s teaching that all our decreed decisions and deliberations are initiated by the “secret instigation of God” that he infallibly “brings to pass by his secret direction?”]


*** “The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.”[3]


[Calvinists are well-known for redefining free-will as being “free to act in accordance with our strongest desires.” However what they leave out is the pivotal point that God has also causally predetermined which desires act upon our wills. Here Calvin admits that for God to achieve a predestined, external action in a person, he must effectively “work in their hearts to make them will before they act.”]


*** “The will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.”[4]


[There is no getting around the logical implications of this. Whether a modern-day Calvinist admits it or not his theology is logically and necessarily undergirded by the premise that God’s will is the ultimate causal force behind every sinful choice and act of rebellion throughout human history.]


*** “If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.“[5]


[On the one hand Calvin wants to say that God’s will of decree regulates, turns and infallibly controls the thoughts and actions of every person. But on the other hand Calvin wants to preserve human accountability in making choices, so he asserts that God does not force his will of decree on anyone. How does God accomplish this? Calvin never tells us. Instead he appeals to unexplainable mystery seen in his cloaked phrase “wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men…” This is theological gobbledegook in its highest form.]


*** “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining but he falls by his own fault.”[6]


[As is obvious Calvin believed God did not just foresee the fall of man, he unconditionally decreed that man would fall. Again Calvin seeks to cover his theological rear from getting blindsided by appealing to an incomprehensible mystery (“we know not”) and then adding in the qualifier “but he falls by his own fault.” Herein lies Calvinism’s greatest conundrum concerning a compatibilist account of freedom. Compatibilist Calvinists say our choices are wholly determined and caused by our desires. Yet Adam and Eve did not have any sinful nature and thus no inherent desire to sin or rebel. So how and why did they choose to sin and rebel? Arminians do have an answer because we understand self-determination to be the ultimate and final explanation for choice and behavior—rather than compatibilist “free-will” which maintains that all “free” choices have their origin in God’s prior decree.]


*** “How it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author or approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance…. I daily so meditate on these mysteries of his judgments that curiosity to know anything more does not attract me.”[7]


[Here again Calvin wants to insist that God is the causal determiner of every sinful transgression and yet absolve God of all responsibility and culpability in foreordaining those sins. How does God do this? Calvin has no idea and again appeals to inscrutable mystery. The obvious problem is Calvinism creates mysteries where none should exist. There is no mystery as to how we can be held responsible for all the sins God causally determines—because God has not causally determined all our sins. There is no mystery as to how God can be the willing determiner of all your sins and not be the author of them—because God has not determined your sins. Calvinism makes God out to be a moral monster equal to the devil himself and appeals to mystery in order to extricate God from looking like the devil! The mysteries of Calvinism are just that—mysteries that solely exist in their own theological construct and are alien to biblical truth.]


*** “I have already shown clearly enough that God is the author of all those things which, according to these objectors [non-Calvinists] happen only by his inactive permission… No, when we cannot comprehend how God can will that to be done which he forbids us to do, let us call to mind our imbecility…”[8]


[In defending his view of sovereignty against his objectors John Calvin concedes that logically it must mean God is the ultimate author of everything he ordains. Moreover he argues that simply saying that God gives “permission” is not sufficient. He later attempts to say that our minds are too finite and stupid (“imbecile”) to comprehend the mystery as to why God would ordain the very sins he forbids us to do.]


*** “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.”[9]


[For Calvin and Calvinism in general “chance” is understood as being any choice of self-determination that lies outside what God has already unilaterally pre-chosen should occur. In other words God has chosen what each choice shall be and chance is defined as any event or choice that is free of God’s causal determinism of all choices before the world began. Whether it be the roll of the dice in monopoly, your decision on a menu, or whether or not to cheat on a test— in Calvinism the only thing God is “allowing” is his own choice to become realized.]


*** “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.”[10]


[Here Calvin states that God inspires everything men do. Thus God inspires every child molestation, every lie, every act of adultery and every suicide. Accordingly God does not simply allow men to abuse their freedom to do evil—he in fact inspires the very evil men do.]


James White:


Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:


*** “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”[11]


[For a thorough refutation of White’s reasoning, click here.]


*** “Scripture…teaches God’s sovereignty (providence, decree, etc.) and man’s responsibility. We usually call this “biblical compatibilism,” which we might summarize by saying that human beings freely chose what God foreordains.[12]


[Secondary causation, otherwise known as compatibilism, still results in causal determinism that precludes human responsibility in White’s theology. For in Calvinistic compatibilism God doesn’t just passively allow us to pick which bondage of sins our fallen desires “freely” pull us towards—he determines which desires we will have and which specific sins we will choose! In the end Calvinism can make no sense as to why God still treats people as moral agents who are responsible for the very same evil actions he causally determined and inwardly initiated for them to do.]





Vincent Cheung:


*** “God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”[13]


*** “Those who see that it is impossible to altogether disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil nevertheless try to distance God from evil by saying that God merely “permits” evil, and that he does not cause any of it. However, since Scripture itself states that God actively decrees everything, and that nothing can happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something – nothing happens by God’s mere permission.[14]


[In declaring that every thought of man, even man’s sinful thoughts, are actively decreed by God, and that nothing happens unless God actively determines it (and not just permits it), Vincent Cheung leaves no stone unturned as to the extent of God’s divine determination over all things. Moreover, like John Piper, Cheung holds to the absurd and despicable Calvinist idea that God has divinely determined all evil—for his own holy glory.]


John Piper:


*** “Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes… Now the reason I believe that is because the Bible says, “The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33).” [15]


[Here we find a rare moment of total honesty from John Piper about the true nature of his commitment to Calvinism. More often than not, Piper will use obscuring language to extol what he calls the “supremacy of God’s sovereignty.” Very rarely does he allow the “young, restless and reformed” crowd to be exposed to the dark and sinister implications of what it means for God to be “supreme” in Calvinism. Yet here he admits that to hold Calvinist beliefs is to also hold to a belief that “God predetermined… all of our besetting sins.” Do you struggle with lust, pride, gossip, porn, and lying? Take comfort in knowing God predetermined that you would. Such is the morally bankrupt “dead end” of Calvinism to those who wish to have it. Piper attempts to justify this vile belief through Proverbs 16:33 which speaks of God’s sovereignty extending even to the result of dice being thrown. However humans are not dice! We are free, moral agents! That being said, we need not think God is the cosmic, casino owner of Vegas ensuring that the odds are always in the house’s favor (which statistically they are.) We only need to believe the general principle that God’s power can extend into any arena, such as thrown dice. But that general principle need not commit us to the belief that God’s hand actually does manipulate every throw of dice in a poker game (much less a monopoly game.) Proverbs often speaks “universally” to make a general point or principle, but not a universal, absolute law. For example Prov. 10:3 states, “The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry” but many persecuted believers languishing in prisons will tell you of great hunger. Prov. 14:23 says, “Hard work brings forth a profit” but many people can attest that too is not a universal law. Prov. 22:6 says, “Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it” but many heartbroken parents can tell you otherwise. That Piper would look to Proverbs (which tells us how to avoid sin!) in order to anchor his belief that “God determined all our besetting sins” is abhorrent. He should know better.]


*** “So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son… By ordain I mean God either caused something directly or permitted it for wise purposes.”[16]


[In this quote, Piper attempts to argue that God ordained all evil for a purpose. What is that purpose? According to Piper it is so that God can achieve a greater radiance of glory. The view suffers in that it implies that God was not fully glorified before sin and now needs sin to make his glory “shine more brightly.” All Christians ought to distance themselves from such a view because it presents a God who has a need—sin and evil—to achieve something righteous—glory. Notice also that Piper attempts to do damage control by shrouding his true beliefs behind the innocuous phrase “God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.” What Piper really means is “God eternally conceived, designed, predetermined every evil for the good purpose of glorifying his Son.” We are left wondering if perhaps Piper does not want to be this blunt and honest with his readers because he is afraid many will not have the “stomach” to handle such brutal truths. Unfortunately Piper is very reticent to be theologically honest and forthcoming in his popular sermons—especially with young people who are considering Calvinism. He will often borrow an Arminian framework of God not “preventing” evil and “permitting sin” to explain how God foreordains every event of evil without being the author of such evils. But given that our first quote of Piper already puts him on the record in conceding “Yes” to the question, “Has God predetermined all our besetting sins”– it means any utilization of the language of “permission” is wholly inappropriate. Does Piper think God needs to get permission from Himself? In cannot be stressed enough that when Piper uses the language of “permission” or “allow” to morally shelter God from his own theology determinism, he is not only being wholly inconsistent with his own theology, he is also being dishonest (misleading) with his laymen listeners and readers. This charge I do not make lightly. Yet I am convinced Piper knows that he cannot always unfurl the true, unpalatable implications of his views to his readership. Despite conceding (in other writings) that God has “predetermined all our besetting sins” Piper is savvy to know people will reject Calvinism wholesale if he is that honest all the time. So he misleadingly states that God’s ordination of all evil can include the idea of God “permitting it for wise purposes.” This is both a theological and philosophical “whopper” and Piper knows it! Since Piper affirms the Westminster Confession that says God does ordain/decree things because He foresees them as free acts, and since human beings were not yet born when God designed and predetermined all our sins, Piper knows it is wholly misleading to talk about God “permitting” or “allowing” people to commit the very evils he designed and predetermined for them to commit! Bad theology is always garbed in cloaked language.


*** “God is able without blameworthy ‘tempting’ to see to it that a person does what God ordains for him to do even if it involves evil.”[17]


[Piper has yet to be able to articulate a philosophically sound and coherent account of how our Holy God decrees the desires, motives and intentions of every man’s evil choices; renders it certain that they carry out those specifically decreed evils—yet all the while escapes the charge that he “tempts men” to do evil. Piper’s position is essentially that God does not actually tempt men to sin because that would make him morally culpable for sin. Instead Piper theorizes God only designs and decrees all of our sin; sovereignly inclines all of our wills to commit that decreed sin—yet somehow remains morally un-culpable because he doesn’t tempt us to sin. What? This position would almost be worthy of humor given its irrationality if it wasn’t so tragic that Piper has managed to convince multitudes of others to think the same absurdity.]


J.I. Packer:


*** “God… orders and controls all things, human actions among them…He [also] holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues… Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled; man is divinely controlled, though he is also a responsible moral agent. To our finite minds, of course, the thing is inexplicable.”[18]


[Notice again how Calvinists are quick to find refuge in “unexplainable mystery” whenever they are pressed on explaining the logic of their convictions. If one drops the premise that all human desire and choice is rooted in God’s irresistible eternal decree then the mystery of how humans can be responsible for their actions disappears.]


R.C. Sproul Jr.:


*** “God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”[19]


[This Calvinist theologian unashamedly takes Calvinism to its logical conclusion. That other Calvinists hold to the same view but don’t speak so openly and plainly to their masses is a cause for concern.]


Edwin Palmer:


*** “All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist even sinAlthough sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass).[20]


[To concede, as Palmer does, that God unilaterally and unconditionally ordained “every evil thought” undermines the typical Calvinist defense (via Edwards and Piper) that human choice can be determined by God and yet humans can still be held morally responsible for the choices they make because freedom of the will is simply thinking upon and doing what we think and desire to do– and left to ourselves we will always desire evil. But if our evil thoughts and desires are themselves determined by God, as Palmer admits, the Calvinist argument is rendered meaningless. The mere fact that so many intelligent and sincere followers of God believe God unilaterally and unconditionally ordained “every evil thought” and “decides and causes…even [their] sin” is truly troubling and worrisome in that the view offers no sound reason as to why–in the end– God’s grace is not a license to sin. One can only speculate as to how many lives have been shipwrecked on the rocks of this extreme view of God’s sovereignty that provides every person a valid reason to absolve themselves of all guilt—for who can resist an irresistible decree of God to sin?]


W.G.T. Shedd:


*** “Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass’, all of which are ‘ordained’…Nothing comes to pass contrary to His decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God… man’s inability to explain how God can make things certain, but not compulsory… is no reason to deny that [God] can do it or that he has done it.”[21]


[Here we are told that God foreordains the very evils he hates and abhors. Again the theology of Calvinism makes God indistinguishable from the activity of the devil! In fact Calvinism must logically affirm that every demon is meticulously controlled by God insofar as he has decreed every one of their acts of temptation and evil.]


*** “God by his providence permitted some of the angels willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation…ordering that, and all their sins, to his glory.” [22]


[Notice how Shedd, like Piper and Edwards, adopts a philosophy of absurd incoherence in attempting to use the language of “permission” to explain the fall and activity of demons, while simultaneously asserting a reality of divine determinism to explain the fall and activity of demons. If a teacher arranges an exam whereby she renders certain that all her students fail, it is meaningless to then assert she “permitted” them to fail. And again we find another Calvinist telling us that God determines all sin “to his glory.” Webb should have said “to his shame.” Only a Calvinist possesses the strange ingenuity to attribute sin to God’s glory and in so doing divest glory of all that qualifies it as such.



Gordan H. Clark:


*** “I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.[24]


[Unlike many of his Calvinist brethren who opted to shield themselves behind “mystery” as to how God can be the pre-determiner of sin without being the ultimate cause or author of sin, Clarke was not ashamed or too timid to admit the logical conclusion of Calvinist dogma—that being that God is the determinative cause of sin. He makes no attempt to lessen or soften Calvinism’s extreme view of God’s sovereignty to make it more palatable or agreeable but readily admits that God’s sovereignty, as logically seen through the lens of Calvinism, results in a God who determines, orders and causes the evil acts of all people. Why? Because “He alone is sovereign.” It is Calvinism egregious view of God’s sovereignty that is its foremost error and gives us little reason not to toss it in the rubbish heap of theology gone to seed. Some Calvinists accused Clark of being a “hyper-Calvinist” because of his boldness of speech in unfurling the full banner of Calvinistic logic for all to see. Clark denied he was a “hyper” anything and simply opted to view himself as a logically consistent Calvinist. To date no “soft-pedaling” Calvinist has been able to respond to Clark’s arguments without appealing to inconceivable mystery as a refuge.]



A.W. Pink:


*** “Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.”[25]


[Here Pink, the well-known Calvinist theologian, insists that sin entered this world as a result of what “God has eternally decreed” and that permitting is more or less a formality of means to bring into reality what he purposed unconditionally. When a Calvinists says, “God permitted the sin of X to occur” he is really saying, “God fulfilled the decree of X to occur.”]


John Frame:


*** “The Reformed [Calvinists] agree that God knows what would happen under all conditions, but they reject the notion that this knowledge is ever ultimately based on man’s autonomous decisions. Human decisions, they argue, are themselves the effects of God’s eternal decrees.[26]


[Here Frame admits that God’s knowledge of every human decision (i.e. sin) is ultimately not a result of knowing what humans autonomously choose. In Calvinism there is no “autonomy” of the will. We are more like the glove that fits on a hand. The glove moves but ultimately only in response to the movement of the hand. Our wills are thus God’s instruments to affect his decrees. In this sense Frame would have us understand that God knows all human decisions because he has decreed each decision. Our illusion of free will is merely a trick of the mind because we are constrained to time. The fact is, according to Frame, every choice we make is merely the effects in time of what God eternally decreed.]


Mark Talbot and John Piper:


*** “God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.” [27]


The above quote, which was edited and approved by John Piper for inclusion in his book “Suffering and the Sovereignty of God”, is so morally repugnant, evil and contrary to the majesty and glory of God, the mere fact that any Christian leader could affirm it only goes to show how deeply entrenched Calvinism is in demonic deception. 1500 years ago at the Council of Orange, the Church had little tolerance for such blasphemous departures from the nature of God’s goodness and holiness, saying, “We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.” (Council of Orange 529AD)


Conclusion: Calvinism makes much of the will of man being in bondage to sin, but it turns out this is only a formality in man’s experience–it is ultimately irrelevant. In Calvinism, man’s will is in bondage to God’s decretive will. Moreover this bondage is throughout one’s life! A Calvinist would be mistaken to think regenerated, saved persons somehow escape the “bondage of the will” they formerly incurred while in sin. That would be a conclusion that does not give Calvinism its full due. In order for a Calvinist to extoll God as sovereign it must be conceded that every sin, even sins made by Christians who are in Christ, is a sin that God decreed for them to make. Becoming saved changes this not one bit. There is ultimately no true freedom of the will to be gained in being a new creature in Christ—your sins are still determined just like they were before!


The result of such an extreme view of sovereignty is quite frightfully appalling. God tells us to put to death the deeds of our flesh and to walk in holiness, yet every time we give in to the flesh God’s meticulous predeterminism ultimately lies behind it all—such that we could not have chosen against God’s decree. Far from being removed from sin, Calvinism results in God being the conceptual designer, author and determinative cause of all sin! https://atheologyintension.com/2013/03/21/2376/#_ftn2


At its core historical, scholarly Arminianism has principally been motivated by an unceasing passion to protect and defend the holy and righteous character of God from the horrific implications of Calvinist theology.

[1] John Calvin, Inst. I.xvi.8. 1539 edition. Quoted in A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[2] John Calvin, Inst. I.xviii.l. 1559 edition. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[3] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (tr. J. K. S. Reid) (London, 1961)175f. (OC 8.358) See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[4] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God 177 (OC 8.360) (‘summam et praecipuam rerum omnium causam’). Cf. Inst. I.xviii.2 (1559). See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[5] John Calvin, Commentary on Is. 10:15. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[6] John Calvin, Inst. III.xxiii.8. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[7] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, 124 (OC 8.316). See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73)

[8] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 2008), 1.18.1 and 3:136, 138-39

[9] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4

[10] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172

[11] James White, http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-it-is-important-to-go-back-to.html

[12] James White, www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4324

[13] Vincent Cheung, “Problem of Evil,” http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/ProblemEvil.htm (March, 2013)

[14] Vincent Cheung, “Problem of Evil,” http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/ProblemEvil.htm (March, 2013)

[15] John Piper, https://www.desiringgod.org/intervi...ery-tiny-detail-in-the-universe-including-sin

[16] John Piper, Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), 54. See also John Piper’s sermon “Is God less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?” http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...ess-glorious-because-he-ordained-that-evil-be (June, 2012). In that sermon Piper quotes Jonathan Edward’s answer to the question as to how God can be the ultimate cause and determiner of sin and yet not be its author. Notice how Edwards relies on the Arminian language of “permission” to extricate himself from the dilemma:

“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing… It would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.” But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”

Piper than goes on to quote Edwards further saying, “God is, Edwards says, the “permitter… of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the states of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted… will most certainly and infallibly follow.” As is obvious Piper is being wholly inconsistent with the logic of his own position. In Calvinism all men sin necessarily in virtue of God irrevocably decreeing that they sin irresistibly. For in Calvinism it is impossible for men to choose against God’s decree. It is pointless to say God permits what he necessitates through an irresistible decree. Piper is intentionally obscuring the true horror of Calvinism by softening his language and borrowing Arminian terms to escape the logical implications of his own theology. As one writer insightfully points out, “Such a view of permission as Edwards and Piper describe would be like saying that someone who controlled the mind and actions of another to sin in such a way that the person being controlled had no power to avoid sinning ‘permitted the sin’ because he ‘allowed’ the person to think and act just as he was irresistibly controlling the person to think and act.” Obviously this is hardly how anyone would understand ‘permission’ yet this fact does not give Calvinists like Piper pause. He intentionally obscures meaning. To say that God “permits” sin to come about through his infallible, determinative decree is to simply say God established a world whereby sin happens of necessity–via eternal decrees. In the Edwards/Piper/Calvinist scheme, man is powerless to control his own choices because they are powerless to choose or act contrary to their “strongest motive.” But in Calvinism, not even their interior affections, desires or motives are untouched by God’s decrees, for God has determined those too! All these things are secured by God’s determinative decrees before the world began. Adam’s sin, mankind’s consequent fallen nature, and every subsequent thought, motive, desire, and act are rendered necessary (not only certain) because God’s eternal decrees cannot fail. A person can no more resist or act contrary to the eternal divine decree than they can create their own universe! How then can we speak of God merely “permitting” these “necessitated” sinful acts?” See Ben Henshaw’s devastating critique of Piper’s sermon and reliance on Edwards ill-conceived theology at: http://arminianperspectives.wordpre...n-arminian-response-to-pipers-first-question/ (June, 2012).

[17] John Piper, Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), 24

[18] J.I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (Chicago: InterVarsity Press, 1961), 19-23.

[19] R.C. jr Sproul, Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54

[20] Edwin Palmer,The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25

[21] W.G.T. Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 32-33, 38-39 http://www.archive.org/stream/calvinismpuremix00shed#page/32/mode/2up

[22] W.G.T. Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 32-33 http://www.archive.org/stream/calvinismpuremix00shed#page/34/mode/2up

[23] Gordon Clark, Religion, Reason, and Revelation, (Philadelphia, PA: Presbyterian & Reformed), 1961, 221

[24] Gordon Clark, Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18

[25] A.W Pink, The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162

[26] John Frame,“Scientia Media,” Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 2nd ed., ed. Walter A. Elwell. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2001), 1075.

[27] Mark Talbot, edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, (Wheaton, Ill: Crossway Books, 2006) 41-42
 
Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205

John Hendryx, a compatibilistic philosopher from monergism.com, speculates: “In order to understand this better, theologians have come up with the term ‘compatibilism’ to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is ‘compatible’ with voluntary choice [choosing according to one’s desire]. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass Desiring God website

hope this helps !!!
 
Nonsense I'm telling you to look at the historical context of what was happening and why in the things you brought up and showing you you can't rightly equate both things (which we were talking about) as being the same.
Deal with the Scriptures and don't tell me the written word it is nonsense, please.
One verse here and there is not good heremeneutics-you know it-I know it. And I assume this is what you are referring to?

 
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Like I say determinism ( compatibilism ) is fatalism. :)


Fatalism and determinism are related philosophical concepts, but they have distinct differences in their implications and interpretations.
  1. Determinism:Determinism is the philosophical idea that all events, including human actions and choices, are causally determined by prior events and the laws of nature. It suggests that the present state of the universe, along with the natural laws that govern it, necessarily leads to specific future events. In a deterministic worldview, the future is viewed as a logical consequence of the past and the laws of cause and effect. This concept applies to both natural events and human actions.
    Difference: Determinism is a broader and more general concept, encompassing the idea that all events are causally determined. It doesn't necessarily imply a specific belief about fate or predestination. Determinism can be compatible with the idea of free will, as some philosophers propose "compatibilism," which suggests that free will can coexist with determinism if actions align with an individual's desires and motivations.
  2. Fatalism:Fatalism is the belief that all events and outcomes are predetermined and inevitable, regardless of human actions or choices. In a fatalistic view, it is futile for individuals to resist or change the course of events since they are bound to unfold as preordained. Fatalism often implies the idea of an external force or destiny that guides events in an inexorable manner.
    Difference: Fatalism is a specific subset of determinism, focusing on the inevitability of future events, typically without consideration of causality or the laws of nature. Fatalism tends to have a more fatalistic outlook, suggesting that events will unfold irrespective of human agency, choices, or actions. Unlike some interpretations of determinism, fatalism tends to reject the possibility of free will altogether.
In summary, determinism is a broader concept that suggests all events are causally determined, while fatalism is a specific subset of determinism that emphasizes the inevitability and predestination of events, often implying a lack of human control or influence over the unfolding of these events. While determinism can be compatible with free will (in the form of compatibilism), fatalism typically presents a more pessimistic view that events are fixed and beyond human intervention or choice.

Theological Determinism: This perspective holds that a divine entity or a higher power's omniscience and plan predetermine all events, including human actions.

Hard determinism is a philosophical position that asserts that free will is an illusion and that all events, including human actions and choices, are entirely determined by antecedent causes. In other words, under hard determinism, there is no room for genuine human agency or the ability to make choices that are independent of prior causes and conditions.

According to hard determinism, the state of the universe at any given moment, along with the laws of nature, logically and inevitably lead to specific outcomes in the future. This perspective denies the existence of any true alternatives and suggests that every action or decision made by an individual is the inevitable result of the sum total of their genetic makeup, past experiences, and external influences.

The proponents of hard determinism often draw on ideas from causal determinism, which posits that the world operates according to a chain of cause-and-effect relationships. They argue that even our thoughts and feelings are predetermined by physical processes in the brain and the external environment, leaving no room for genuine free will.

As a consequence of hard determinism, notions of moral responsibility and accountability become problematic. If individuals are not ultimately in control of their actions and choices, the traditional concepts of blame, punishment, and reward lose their grounding in the context of personal responsibility.

Critics of hard determinism argue that it negates the intuitive sense of agency and choice that humans experience in their everyday lives. They contend that certain complexities, such as the unpredictability of human behavior and the presence of genuine uncertainty in some systems (e.g., quantum mechanics), challenge the notion of a purely deterministic universe.

Overall, the debate between hard determinism and other philosophical perspectives on free will remains an ongoing and profound topic in philosophy and cognitive sciences, touching on fundamental questions about the nature of human existence and the limits of human autonomy.AI

conclusion: calvinism is determinism which is fatalism.

hope this helps !!!
 
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