Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun

I do know He could stop it if He wanted. Why don't He stop it?
Why does God allow sin to exist. He's allowed it for a period of time, I call it a demonstration time where all can once and for all see what type of fruit independence from him produces. Once he's decided that time has lasted long enough you'll see the appointed day Paul talked about in Acts 17 where God will judge the world in righteousness. It's been however a painful, grieving thing however for God to allow it and he most certainly did not nor commission insidious evil type of sins we don't even want to mention to occur.....(as you Calvinists want to claim) .

His wisdom however says as painful as it is to him the end result of his not allowing it to play out unstopped could create bigger problems. That would be the on going accusations questioning God's fairness of not giving something a chance to see what beings could do with being independent from God. Seeing mankind chose sin the issue had to be settled. But don't go saying God ordained sin. That's totally opposite to the character and nature of the loving, gracious God.

God Bless
 
Your system which is the topic of the OP has god ordaining it for his pleasure and glory. It’s the same god as the militant Islamic jihads.

It’s time you face the facts

Next
It's time you face the fact the same arguement can be used against you. Your god is not off the hook.

Why does your god stand buy and allow innocent children to be rated and murdered. Innocent children no less according to the Provisionist. We're listening
 
It's not about why He allows evil to exist. The question is why does He simply sit by and watch innocent, according to Provisionism, children be raped or murdered. WHY??
This is a good question-

The question of why God allows evil and suffering, including the horrendous acts against innocent children, is one of the most profound and difficult questions in theology and philosophy. While definitive answers can be elusive, Christian theologians offer several perspectives that attempt to address this issue:

1. Free Will and Moral Responsibility
One significant perspective is the free will defense. This view holds that God has given human beings free will, which includes the ability to choose between good and evil. Free will is essential for genuine love and moral responsibility. Without it, humans would be mere automatons.

Scriptural Support:

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."

Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'"

2. The Greater Good Theodicy
Another explanation is that God allows evil and suffering because they can lead to greater goods that could not be achieved otherwise. This can include spiritual growth, the development of virtues such as courage and compassion, and the deeper understanding of the nature of good and evil.

Scriptural Support:
Romans 8:28: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."
James 1:2-4: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

3. The Reality of a Fallen World
The presence of evil and suffering is also explained by the concept of the fallen world. According to Christian doctrine, the fall of humanity through Adam and Eve’s sin introduced suffering and evil into the world. This fallen state affects all creation and is the context within which God’s redemptive plan unfolds.

Scriptural Support:
Genesis 3:16-19: Describes the curse and suffering that result from the fall.

Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

4. God’s Sovereign Plan
Another perspective is rooted in God’s sovereignty and His ultimate plan for humanity. Even though we may not understand why specific instances of evil and suffering are allowed, believers trust that God’s purposes are ultimately good and that He is working out His plan for redemption.

Scriptural Support:
Isaiah 55:8-9: "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

5. The Mystery of Suffering
Finally, it is acknowledged that some aspects of suffering and evil remain a mystery. The Bible contains numerous instances where individuals question God’s purposes, and yet, they are called to trust in His wisdom and goodness.

Scriptural Support:
Job 38-42: God responds to Job’s suffering not with direct answers, but by highlighting His own power and wisdom.

Psalm 13:1-2: "How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? How long must I take counsel in my soul and have sorrow in my heart all the day?"

Conclusion
While these perspectives provide various ways to understand why God might allow evil and suffering, including the suffering of innocent children, they often converge on the importance of free will, the greater goods that can come from suffering, the consequences of a fallen world, and the ultimate trust in God’s sovereign plan. The complexity and depth of this issue mean that it is often approached with humility and recognition of the limits of human understanding.

So let's leave it there and move on to the Cross-resurrection of our Lord Christ Jesus
 
Why does God allow sin to exist. He's allowed it for a period of time, I call it a demonstration time where all can once and for all see what type of fruit independence from him produces. Once he's decided that time has lasted long enough you'll see the appointed day Paul talked about in Acts 17 where God will judge the world in righteousness. It's been however a painful, grieving thing however for God to allow it and he most certainly did not nor commission insidious evil type of sins we don't even want to mention to occur.....(as you Calvinists want to claim) .

His wisdom however says as painful as it is to him the end result of his not allowing it to play out unstopped could create bigger problems. That would be the on going accusations questioning God's fairness of not giving something a chance to see what beings could do with being independent from God. Seeing mankind chose sin the issue had to be settled. But don't go saying God ordained sin. That's totally opposite to the character and nature of the loving, gracious God.

God Bless
Why does He not stop the rape and murder of "innocent" children in your system?
 
Why does He not stop the rape and murder of "innocent" children in your system?
The Biblical Data...
The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
6 "`No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 "`Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 "`Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 "`Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 "`Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 "`Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 "`Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 "`Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 "`Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 "`Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 "`Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 "`Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 "`Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 "`Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 "`Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 "`Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 "`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 "`Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 "`Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 "`Everyone who does any of these detestable things -- such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.'" (Lev 18, repeated in Lev 20)
The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech. (Lev 20.1ff)

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. (Deut 12.31)

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, (Deut 18.10)

They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. (Ps 106.38--about Israel!)

There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. (I Kgs 14.24, cf. also Deut 23.17--No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.)


So, the list of Canaanite "religious" practices included:
Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)
Incest
Bestiality
Homosexual practices
Cultic prostitution--both male and female.

Let's see if the extra-biblical data supports the biblical material.

Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)

Sadly, Yes.

Let's look at some of the scholarly descriptions of the data:

"Its origin (human sacrifice) must be sought, evidently, in Canaanite culture (in the broad sense). Punic and Neo-Punic inscriptions contain the expressions mlk 'mr (transcribed mokhomor in Latin) and mlk 'dm. Very probably, these phrases mean respectively 'offerings of lamb' and 'offering of man', and refer to the sacrifice of an infant, or of a lamb as substitute. This interpretation is supported by a find in the sanctuary of Tanit at Carthage, where archaeologists have discovered urns containing burnt bones of lambs and goats, and, more often, of children. There is, too, a famous text of Diodorus Siculus (Biblioth. Hist. XX 14): in 310 B.C., when a disaster was threatening Carthage, the inhabitants of the town decided it was due to the anger of Kronos, to whom they had formerly sacrificed their finest children: instead, they had begun to offer sickly children, or children they had bought. Thereupon, they sacrificed two hundred children from the noblest families. There was a bronze statue of Kronos with outstretched arms, and the child was placed on its hands and rolled into the furnace. Whether the details be true or false, the story is evidence of a custom to which other classical authors also allude.
"These inscriptions and texts are of late date, but the molk offering is mentioned in two steles from Malta belonging to the seventh or the sixth century B.C. The sacrificial term has not so far been found in inscriptions from Phoenicia proper, but child-sacrifice was practised there: a fragment of Philo of Byblos cited in Eusebius (Praep. Evang. I 10) says that the Phoenicians had an ancient custom--'they offered their dearest children in a way full of mystery' when danger threatened the nation. Porphyry (De abstin. II 56) says that the Phoenician History written by Sanchuniaton and translated by Philo of Byblos was full of stories about child-sacrifices offered to Kronos in times of calamity. These texts furnish the connecting-link with the story told by Diodorus Siculus, and we may mention also the reference to the king of Moab's offering his son as a holocaust when his capital was under siege (2 K 3 : 27).

"The sacrifice of children, then, by burning them to death probably made its way into Israel from Phoenicia (note: the main transmitter of Canaanite culture) during a period of religious syncretism. The Bible mentions only two specific instances, and they are motivated by the same exceptional circumstances as the Phoenician sacrifices: Achaz 'made his son pass through the fire' (2 K I6: 3) during the Syro-Ephraimite War, and Manasseh did the same (2 K 2I: 6) when confronted with some Assyrian threat which is not mentioned in the Books of Kings but which may be alluded to in 2 Ch 33:11f. Yet the custom must have been fairly wide- spread to have deserved the condemnations uttered by Deuteronomy, Leviticus and the Prophets. Though Phoenician texts properly so called do not mention the word, it is possible (we say no more) that the sacrifice was called molk in Phoenicia, as in Carthage, and that it came into Israel under this name." (AI:445-446).

 
It's time you face the fact the same arguement can be used against you. Your god is not off the hook.

Why does your god stand buy and allow innocent children to be rated and murdered. Innocent children no less according to the Provisionist. We're listening
Sure My God is off the hook because He gave mankind free will to make their own choices in this life to come to Him and obey Him or to reject Him and disobey Him.

You see it takes much more strength to be Sovereign and delegate control than it does to be a tyrant dictator.

NEXT
 
Why does He not stop the rape and murder of "innocent" children in your system?
I'm content at least unbiased readers can see that I have answered all that very well in my post #61

And it's a trillion, million times better of an answer then what you Calvinists put forth that God actually wants the sin acts to occur. What a horrible and appalling way you have of thinking about the Creator.
 
The Biblical Data...
The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
6 "`No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7 "`Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 "`Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9 "`Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10 "`Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 "`Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 "`Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13 "`Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14 "`Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15 "`Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16 "`Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17 "`Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 "`Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 "`Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20 "`Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21 "`Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.
22 "`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23 "`Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24 "`Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 "`Everyone who does any of these detestable things -- such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.'" (Lev 18, repeated in Lev 20)
The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him. 3 I will set my face against that man and I will cut him off from his people; for by giving his children to Molech, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. 4 If the people of the community close their eyes when that man gives one of his children to Molech and they fail to put him to death, 5 I will set my face against that man and his family and will cut off from their people both him and all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molech. (Lev 20.1ff)

You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshipping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods. (Deut 12.31)

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, (Deut 18.10)

They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood. (Ps 106.38--about Israel!)

There were even male shrine prostitutes in the land; the people engaged in all the detestable practices of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites. (I Kgs 14.24, cf. also Deut 23.17--No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute.)


So, the list of Canaanite "religious" practices included:
Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)
Incest
Bestiality
Homosexual practices
Cultic prostitution--both male and female.

Let's see if the extra-biblical data supports the biblical material.

Child sacrifice (with at least some of it in fire)

Sadly, Yes.

Let's look at some of the scholarly descriptions of the data:

"Its origin (human sacrifice) must be sought, evidently, in Canaanite culture (in the broad sense). Punic and Neo-Punic inscriptions contain the expressions mlk 'mr (transcribed mokhomor in Latin) and mlk 'dm. Very probably, these phrases mean respectively 'offerings of lamb' and 'offering of man', and refer to the sacrifice of an infant, or of a lamb as substitute. This interpretation is supported by a find in the sanctuary of Tanit at Carthage, where archaeologists have discovered urns containing burnt bones of lambs and goats, and, more often, of children. There is, too, a famous text of Diodorus Siculus (Biblioth. Hist. XX 14): in 310 B.C., when a disaster was threatening Carthage, the inhabitants of the town decided it was due to the anger of Kronos, to whom they had formerly sacrificed their finest children: instead, they had begun to offer sickly children, or children they had bought. Thereupon, they sacrificed two hundred children from the noblest families. There was a bronze statue of Kronos with outstretched arms, and the child was placed on its hands and rolled into the furnace. Whether the details be true or false, the story is evidence of a custom to which other classical authors also allude.
"These inscriptions and texts are of late date, but the molk offering is mentioned in two steles from Malta belonging to the seventh or the sixth century B.C. The sacrificial term has not so far been found in inscriptions from Phoenicia proper, but child-sacrifice was practised there: a fragment of Philo of Byblos cited in Eusebius (Praep. Evang. I 10) says that the Phoenicians had an ancient custom--'they offered their dearest children in a way full of mystery' when danger threatened the nation. Porphyry (De abstin. II 56) says that the Phoenician History written by Sanchuniaton and translated by Philo of Byblos was full of stories about child-sacrifices offered to Kronos in times of calamity. These texts furnish the connecting-link with the story told by Diodorus Siculus, and we may mention also the reference to the king of Moab's offering his son as a holocaust when his capital was under siege (2 K 3 : 27).

"The sacrifice of children, then, by burning them to death probably made its way into Israel from Phoenicia (note: the main transmitter of Canaanite culture) during a period of religious syncretism. The Bible mentions only two specific instances, and they are motivated by the same exceptional circumstances as the Phoenician sacrifices: Achaz 'made his son pass through the fire' (2 K I6: 3) during the Syro-Ephraimite War, and Manasseh did the same (2 K 2I: 6) when confronted with some Assyrian threat which is not mentioned in the Books of Kings but which may be alluded to in 2 Ch 33:11f. Yet the custom must have been fairly wide- spread to have deserved the condemnations uttered by Deuteronomy, Leviticus and the Prophets. Though Phoenician texts properly so called do not mention the word, it is possible (we say no more) that the sacrifice was called molk in Phoenicia, as in Carthage, and that it came into Israel under this name." (AI:445-446).

Second, I want to look at the EXACT CONTENT of the instructions. What EXACTLY was ordered? What were the possible responses available to the Canaanites & Co.?

The first thing to notice is the wide range of words used to describe what YHWH/Israel was supposed to do to these nations.
"wipe them out" (e.g. Ex 23.23)
"throw them into confusion" (e.g. Ex 23.27)
"make them turn their backs and run" (e.g. Ex 23.27)
"drive them out of your way" (e.g. Ex 23.28)
"struck down" (e.g. Ps 135.10)
"dispossessed" (e.g. Num 21.32)
"drive out" (e.g. Num 33.52)
"thrust out" (e.g. Deut 6.19)
"destroy them" (e.g. Deut 9.3)
"subdue them before you" (e.g. Deut 9.3)
"annihilate" (e.g. Deut 9.3)
"delivered them over to you" (e.g. Deut 7.2)
"defeated them" (e.g. Deut 7.2)
"perish" (e.g. Deut 7.20)
"give kings into your hands" (e.g. Deut 7.24)
"wipe out their names from under heaven" (e.g. Deut 7.24)

Notice that there is a HUGE difference (at first blush) between "annihilate" and "drive them out"! These seem almost contradictory. This warrants a closer look.

These words group into two categories: dispossession vs destruction. "Dispossession" would include the words like drive out, dispossess, take over possession of, thrust out, send away (33 occurrences). "Destruction" words would include annihilate, destroy, perish, and eliminate (11 occurrences). The Dispossession words would indicate that the population 'ran away'--migrated out of the Land prior to any encounter with the Israelites; Destruction words would indicate the consequences for those who stayed behind.

What then is the mix of these two sets of words? The "Dispossession" words outnumber the "Destruction" words by 3-to-1!. This would indicate that the dominant 'intended effect' was for the peoples in the Land to migrate somewhere else. So, consider Deut 12.29: The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, 30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, "How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.".

Let's look at a few examples of the "dispossession" words.
From the garasl group ("drive out"):
Ex 23:28-30: I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way... But I will not drive them out in a single year,... Little by little I will drive them out before you"
Ex 23.31-33: "I will hand over to you the people who live in the land and you will drive them out before you. 32 Do not make a covenant with them or with their gods. 33 Do not let them live in your land,"
Ex 33.2: "I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites..."
Deut 33.27: " He will drive out your enemy before you, saying, `Destroy him!'"
[Notice that this word is used to describe the Pharoah 'driving out' the Israelites--obviously not annihilating them!--in Exodus 6.1: " "Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country." and by Balak trying to drive Israel away in Numbers 22:6,11.]

The yarasl group ("dispossess"):
Ex 24.34: " I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory,"
Num 33.52f: " drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places. 53 Take possession of the land and settle in it,"
Deut 4.38: " to drive out before you nations greater and stronger than you and to bring you into their land to give it to you for your inheritance, as it is today."
Deut 9.3,4,5: " And you will drive them out and annihilate them quickly... After the LORD your God has driven them out before you... the LORD your God will drive them out before you"
Deut 11.23: " then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you."
Deut 18.12: " because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you."

The salah group ("send away")
Lev 18.24: " because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants."
Lev 20.23: " You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you."

This is striking--it looks more like God is planning on "moving" a nation, than on "destroying a people"...Let's see if the evidence continues to support this...

Notice in some of the above passages that 'destruction' images are mixed with 'dispossession' images. How can these be reconciled?!


Need I say more?
 
Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13

“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

hope this helps !!!
 
I'm content at least unbiased readers can see that I have answered all that very well in my post #61

And it's a trillion, million times better of an answer then what you Calvinists put forth that God actually wants the sin acts to occur. What a horrible and appalling way you have of thinking about the Creator.
Exactly is islam under another name, calvinism.
 
I'm content at least unbiased readers can see that I have answered all that very well in my post #61

And it's a trillion, million times better of an answer then what you Calvinists put forth that God actually wants the sin acts to occur. What a horrible and appalling way you have of thinking about the Creator.
I understand your concern-I really do-

John 3:36:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Romans 1:18:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."
Ephesians 5:6:

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
Colossians 3:5-6:

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming."
Romans 2:5:

"But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed."
Romans 5:9:

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."
1 Thessalonians 1:10:

"And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."
1 Thessalonians 2:16:

"By hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God's wrath has come upon them at last!"
Revelation 6:16-17:

"Calling to the mountains and rocks, 'Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?'"
Revelation 19:15:

"From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty."

These verses collectively indicate that the wrath of God is a present reality for those who reject Him and live in disobedience.

This is not about what Calvinists are saying-but what stands written-the WRATH of YHVH is PRESENTLY abiding upon ALL who refuse to believe into the Messiah.
 
This is a good question-

The question of why God allows evil and suffering, including the horrendous acts against innocent children, is one of the most profound and difficult questions in theology and philosophy. While definitive answers can be elusive, Christian theologians offer several perspectives that attempt to address this issue:

1. Free Will and Moral Responsibility
One significant perspective is the free will defense. This view holds that God has given human beings free will, which includes the ability to choose between good and evil. Free will is essential for genuine love and moral responsibility. Without it, humans would be mere automatons.

Scriptural Support:

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live."

Genesis 2:16-17: "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'"

2. The Greater Good Theodicy
Another explanation is that God allows evil and suffering because they can lead to greater goods that could not be achieved otherwise. This can include spiritual growth, the development of virtues such as courage and compassion, and the deeper understanding of the nature of good and evil.

Scriptural Support:
Romans 8:28: "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose."
James 1:2-4: "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

3. The Reality of a Fallen World
The presence of evil and suffering is also explained by the concept of the fallen world. According to Christian doctrine, the fall of humanity through Adam and Eve’s sin introduced suffering and evil into the world. This fallen state affects all creation and is the context within which God’s redemptive plan unfolds.

Scriptural Support:
Genesis 3:16-19: Describes the curse and suffering that result from the fall.

Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned."

4. God’s Sovereign Plan
Another perspective is rooted in God’s sovereignty and His ultimate plan for humanity. Even though we may not understand why specific instances of evil and suffering are allowed, believers trust that God’s purposes are ultimately good and that He is working out His plan for redemption.

Scriptural Support:
Isaiah 55:8-9: "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will."

5. The Mystery of Suffering
Finally, it is acknowledged that some aspects of suffering and evil remain a mystery. The Bible contains numerous instances where individuals question God’s purposes, and yet, they are called to trust in His wisdom and goodness.

Scriptural Support:
Job 38-42: God responds to Job’s suffering not with direct answers, but by highlighting His own power and wisdom.

Psalm 13:1-2: "How long, O Lord? Will you forget me forever? How long will you hide your face from me? How long must I take counsel in my soul and have sorrow in my heart all the day?"

Conclusion
While these perspectives provide various ways to understand why God might allow evil and suffering, including the suffering of innocent children, they often converge on the importance of free will, the greater goods that can come from suffering, the consequences of a fallen world, and the ultimate trust in God’s sovereign plan. The complexity and depth of this issue mean that it is often approached with humility and recognition of the limits of human understanding.

So let's leave it there and move on to the Cross-resurrection of our Lord Christ Jesus

Death is but for a moment.

Have you ever stopped to think that God has designed this body to quickly pass away in this life. After 3 mins of lacking air, you're not going to feel much of anything. A minute of massive blood loss and you're going to peacefully pass away. When you get a large deep cut, your body will go numb. Most people slowly slip into Eternity. Death itself can be liberating for those who love God.

You know what we do? We make death WORSE. We take drugs that keep us at the edge of death (suffering) for a very long time. We (mankind) save people from death to a life of suffering of our own making.

Don't blame God for anything here. It is all of our making.
 
Death is but for a moment.

Have you ever stopped to think that God has designed this body to quickly pass away in this life. After 3 mins of lacking air, you're not going to feel much of anything. A minute of massive blood loss and you're going to peacefully pass away. When you get a large deep cut, your body will go numb. Most people slow slip into Eternity. Death itself can be liberating for those who love God.

You know what we do? We make death WORSE. We take drugs that keep us at the edge of death (suffering) for a very long time. We (mankind) save people from death to a life of suffering of our own making.

Don't blame God for anything here. It is all of our making.
Just going by what stands written @praise_yeshua
 
Sure My God is off the hook because He gave mankind free will to make their own choices in this life to come to Him and obey Him or to reject Him and disobey Him.

You see it takes much more strength to be Sovereign and delegate control than it does to be a tyrant dictator.

NEXT
So "innocent" children are allowed to be raped and murdered at the altar of your precious free will? When it could easily be stopped? That is some god you have there.

NEXT
 
Death is but for a moment.

Have you ever stopped to think that God has designed this body to quickly pass away in this life. After 3 mins of lacking air, you're not going to feel much of anything. A minute of massive blood loss and you're going to peacefully pass away. When you get a large deep cut, your body will go numb. Most people slowly slip into Eternity. Death itself can be liberating for those who love God.

You know what we do? We make death WORSE. We take drugs that keep us at the edge of death (suffering) for a very long time. We (mankind) save people from death to a life of suffering of our own making.

Don't blame God for anything here. It is all of our making.
Whether it's yout making or not your god could stop it
 
I'm content at least unbiased readers can see that I have answered all that very well in my post #61

And it's a trillion, million times better of an answer then what you Calvinists put forth that God actually wants the sin acts to occur. What a horrible and appalling way you have of thinking about the Creator.
Apparently He wants the rape and murder of innocent children. He does not stop it. That's much better. LOL
 
6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil
And I've said many times. Calvinism is like a Scrambler Machine Ride at an amusement park. You're swung one way and then with much force your swung the absolute opposite direction. When one takes the wraps off of it they discover there's really no order about anything but really just a mess of not understanding anything. Trusting and hoping at least some will get off and find a new found peace.
 
Just going by what stands written @praise_yeshua

We can discuss what is written.

There are those that are not meant for this world. Those who have faith and find it impossible to coop with their circumstances. Which is one of the reason I believe most people misunderstand what Paul said about temptation being common to man. Some circumstances in this life are very uncommon. Even good lives can end in impossible circumstances.

Then there are those who refuse to obey God after expressing faith in Him. I don't know all the circumstances revolving around this "son" that was ordered to be "given over to Satan".....

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

But I do know that the father of this son wouldn't have wanted his son damned.

Which is why I've asked the question before of choosing between Abel and Cain.

Did Eve love Cain less than Abel? Did Adam hate Cain?

I'll shorten this "story" a little. I was with a group of friends onetime at church when I was young man. The subject came up about the Judgement of mankind. Many of those in the group expressed the desire "won't be it good when all these sinners are cast in hell".

I interrupted them and said. "I don't believe there is going to be a "cheering crowd" yelling out "Get them Jesus. That's right. They deserve to burn for all Eternity..... when mankind faces God.

I believe there be complete silence. Sure there will be some boasting but that isn't going to last very long when they see the boasters getting what they don't believe they deserve."

For whatever judgment we measure....

Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
 
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Apparently He wants the rape and murder of innocent children.
That's YOUR theology not mine. I told you the absolute opposite to that, in my post #61 You're bound determined to try to make it seem that we're basically saying the same thing as you are that he determines evil. We ARE NOT and so I'm afraid you'll have to stand alone in your accusation towards God about that.
He does not stop it. That's much better. LOL
Yes, yes, yes it's a million times better than God makes it to happen as you believe. It's as much different between daylight and dark.
 
That's YOUR theology not mine. I told you the absolute opposite to that, in my post #61 You're bound determined to try to make it seem that we're basically saying the same thing as you are that he determines evil. We ARE NOT and so I'm afraid you'll have to stand alone in your accusation towards God about that.

Yes, yes, yes it's a million times better than God makes it to happen as you believe. It's as much different between daylight and dark.
Yes they don’t like what they see in the mirror’s reflection:)
 
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