Defining the authority of the "church"....

[praise_yeshua]

I just think that if Jesus said to do something, then we should do it.
John said he baptized for the forgiveness of sins (repentance) and that one would come after him
that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to baptize in the Great Commission to the Apostles in Matthew 28:19.

They are similar but different. In the context of John, it was all about repentance. A ritual understanding of purity. They hated that John was baptizing in the river Jordan. They were like Naaman.

2 Kings 5:12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

John was appealing to the scenario/understanding that Elisha gave Naaman. It was like... "Don't rely upon your own understanding. Just listen...." I

However, The teaching of Christ became "new" to them. It was "new to the entire world". That change necessitates a different approach.

Now fast forward to today......

Since Christianity has become much like ancient Judaism, the "new context" is often lost in the conversation. We have this "world" around us doesn't really know God.... "MIXED" with descendants of Christianity. Faith to faith.

Baptism and salvation are now very similar to what it was to Israel then. It all about context.

Like you said. God wants our hearts. Water doesn't change our hearts.

 

[GodsGrace]

No one in the Bible teaches water baptism saved anyone

The NT does teach that baptism saves.

Acts 2:38
38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Peter didn't say to just believe....
he said to also be baptized.


Acts 22:16
16And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Paul,,, the very person you stated did not baptize (and he did say this) is telling someone not to wait but to go and
get baptized....by someone else.


1 Peter 3:21
21Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


I don't think this conversation should be in this thread,,,
but I do wonder at times why this is debated so much.
Do some Christians not WANT to be baptized?
Is there some reason why they wouldn't want to be?
The above verses seem clear enough, don't they?

 

[GodsGrace]

They are similar but different. In the context of John, it was all about repentance. A ritual understanding of purity. They hated that John was baptizing in the river Jordan. They were like Naaman.

2 Kings 5:12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.

John was appealing to the scenario/understanding that Elisha gave Naaman. It was like... "Don't rely upon your own understanding. Just listen...." I

However, The teaching of Christ became "new" to them. It was "new to the entire world". That change necessitates a different approach.

Now fast forward to today......

Since Christianity has become much like ancient Judaism, the "new context" is often lost in the conversation. We have this "world" around us doesn't really know God.... "MIXED" with descendants of Christianity. Faith to faith.

Baptism and salvation are now very similar to what it was to Israel then. It all about context.

Like you said. God wants our hearts. Water doesn't change our hearts.

You said baptism doesn't change the heart.
Yet the NT states that we go into the water, die,,,and come out reborn.
Wouldn't this include a new heart?

Look at what Mark said:

Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Some theologians believe that John 3:5 is speaking about baptismal water and not birth water.
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Why do you think we fight this so much?

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you make it to confirmation...you're a Catholic!
The correct order is:
BAPTISM
CONFIRMATION
COMMUNION

To clarify.... I need to get past the "Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults".

Not only did Jesus say to drink and to eat..
if you look at John 6:53, the Greek word for "eat" is "to chew".

I agree.

The local priest has nothing to do with this.
You'd have to join a class called RCIA
RITE OF CHRISTIAN INITIATION FOR ADULTS
It takes from 1 to 2 years, depending on the Parish.
Usually a year.

I know. If I can get the right priest to ignore my beliefs.... (which happens)... that is what I was saying.

You'll be surprised how different the local "parish" is.... Many of them openly oppose various requirements.

What rituals?
The rituals are biblical and very beautiful.
It's some of the doctrine or dogma that I can't get beyond.

Beautiful and actually "sacramental" are too different things. I haven't bought the "jargon".....

I don't think you'll have to defer to God...the answer is in the NT.
I think what you mean is that our BEHAVIOR could change overnight or it could take years.
This is correct.
The NT teaches that we are saved/justified immediately.
The jailer asked how he could be saved and Paul replied:
BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED..

The jailer matches "immediately". He was different. He didn't have the baggage of what he had been taught to deal with. You must recognize that context with the jailer. For Gentiles, at the time, it was different. They knew nothing. They had no baggage. For Israel, it was entirely different.

Now today, we are exactly like they were.

Ephesians tells us that we are saved BY GRACE through FAITH.
So if we have faith, we are saved.

Not true. There are levels to faith. Faith must grow. Faith that doesn't grow doesn't go anywhere. Just heeding the call to the point of obeying what you're told isn't enough.

Our behavior is what might take some time.
This is why we're told to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.
(because the spirit and the flesh are opposed to each other).

Why conflate? You'll never get past sinning. Never. Thusly.... you are not trying to EARN God's favor.

Regarding judging....
We can judge a persons ACTIONS or Matthew 18:15 would make no sense.
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

It is a persons soul that we cannot judge...
only God can know that.

And only God approves the quality of the faith of an individual. Repentance is granted by God. It is approval of the measure of a man's faith. The greatness of their faith.

That is why Jesus told Gentiles during their advent that He had NOT saw such great a faith in all of Israel....

Israel had faith. It wasn't a large enough faith. Their faith was split between allegiance to their traditions and who was standing right there in front of them.

A priest I know once told me:
If someone is seeking for God...
he has already found Him.
I do believe this is true.
HE WHO SEEKS, FINDS.

I told you this early. Those that seek find... However, seeking actually requires seeking. Some FIND at different times. It is more than just words of allegiance. It requires effort.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You said baptism doesn't change the heart.
Yet the NT states that we go into the water, die,,,and come out reborn.
Wouldn't this include a new heart?

Look at what Mark said:

Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Some theologians believe that John 3:5 is speaking about baptismal water and not birth water.
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Why do you think we fight this so much?

I don't see heart anywhere in that verse. I already know what you teach.

Can you make the connection to what you believe the "heart" is here.

I will also say that Mark is problematic at times. Luke is the best of the so called "synoptic Gospels" ( I actually hate the distinction... "Synoptic Gospels". It was "coined" by someone that shouldn't have been recognized as contributing to anything meaningful.

I can handle Mark 16:16 from either perspective.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

You said baptism doesn't change the heart.
Yet the NT states that we go into the water, die,,,and come out reborn.
Wouldn't this include a new heart?

Look at what Mark said:

Mark 16:16
16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Some theologians believe that John 3:5 is speaking about baptismal water and not birth water.
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.


Why do you think we fight this so much?

You wanna hear a true story . I was given a new heart months before i was water baptized .
Yes sister and dear friend its true . NOW i must admit the more i was reading the bible
i soon desired to also be water baptized . But the conversion , the new heart i had it long before i was water baptized .
Now i believe if JESUS said to do something then we ought to do it .
But lets understand its not the water that regenerates us , changes us ,
NO its THE LORD who did all that birthed by HIS SPIRIT . I am proof of this my friend . AND yes i do believe
that we as believers should do all things JESUS instructed us to do . I know full well
that even after the gentiles were converted , spoke with tongues , PETER still had them water baptized .
SO yes we should do this . No doubt in my mind about it . But folks are teaching things wrong and i just
wanted to help us understand .

 

[praise_yeshua]

You wanna hear a true story . I was given a new heart months before i was water baptized .
Yes sister and dear friend its true . NOW i must admit the more i was reading the bible
i soon desired to also be water baptized . But the conversion , the new heart i had it long before i was water baptized .
Now i believe if JESUS said to do something then we ought to do it .
But lets understand its not the water that regenerates us , changes us ,
NO its THE LORD who did all that birthed by HIS SPIRIT . I am proof of this my friend . AND yes i do believe
that we as believers should do all things JESUS instructed us to do . I know full well
that even after the gentiles were converted , spoke with tongues , PETER still had them water baptized .
SO yes we should do this . No doubt in my mind about it . But folks are teaching things wrong and i just
wanted to help us understand .

Me too......

I remember the moment I received Eternal Life. Experiencing that event changed my life. From that moment till this moment, I've not been alone in this life. I treasure the presence of God. Christ in us.....

I will say that I don't require such things from everyone. People are different and have different life experiences. My faith began as a child in things I didn't understand enough to even matter. They were tainted by what I was taught.

Then I heard the real Gospel for the very first time. Not some watered down message that was preached for the furtherment of individuals. My faith began to grow to the point I was left with no excuse. I believe for some people this can happen so early that it is lost from memory or context. I was old enough that I remember it all.

I'm not so foolish to realize that one this body might get the point I can't remember it at all. I know in that context, God will be my sustainer.... we when can't help ourselves, He is there for us.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see heart anywhere in that verse. I already know what you teach.

Can you make the connection to what you believe the "heart" is here.

I will also say that Mark is problematic at times. Luke is the best of the so called "synoptic Gospels" ( I actually hate the distinction... "Synoptic Gospels". It was "coined" by someone that shouldn't have been recognized as contributing to anything meaningful.

I can handle Mark 16:16 from either perspective.

Have to leave soon, but....
The heart....
The connection.

We say that we need to be regenerated.
Some believe that baptism regenertes.
Regenerate means to be made new.
It's OUR HEART that needs to be made new.

(really it's the soul, but poetic language is so beautiful).

As to Mark...whatever, I'm not getting into that.
I like to believe that ALL the writers of the NT are on equal footing.

Synoptic just means the same.
Seems that Matthew and Luke copied a bit from Mark, but
like I said, I don't care to get into this.

John wrote a gospel that is TOTALLY different from the other 3.
I don't know that we can really know why.
Maybe he was the youngest and most impressionable by what he witnessed.
He even states this in his letter 1 John 1.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Have to leave soon, but....
The heart....
The connection.

We say that we need to be regenerated.
Some believe that baptism regenertes.
Regenerate means to be made new.
It's OUR HEART that needs to be made new.

(really it's the soul, but poetic language is so beautiful).

As to Mark...whatever, I'm not getting into that.
I like to believe that ALL the writers of the NT are on equal footing.

Synoptic just means the same.
Seems that Matthew and Luke copied a bit from Mark, but
like I said, I don't care to get into this.

John wrote a gospel that is TOTALLY different from the other 3.
I don't know that we can really know why.
Maybe he was the youngest and most impressionable by what he witnessed.
He even states this in his letter 1 John 1.

Take care. I need to.... too. Lord willing, I will respond later. I've enjoyed our conversation. Thank you Lord Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

You wanna hear a true story . I was given a new heart months before i was water baptized .
Yes sister and dear friend its true . NOW i must admit the more i was reading the bible
i soon desired to also be water baptized . But the conversion , the new heart i had it long before i was water baptized .
Now i believe if JESUS said to do something then we ought to do it .
But lets understand its not the water that regenerates us , changes us ,
NO its THE LORD who did all that birthed by HIS SPIRIT . I am proof of this my friend . AND yes i do believe
that we as believers should do all things JESUS instructed us to do . I know full well
that even after the gentiles were converted , spoke with tongues , PETER still had them water baptized .
SO yes we should do this . No doubt in my mind about it . But folks are teaching things wrong and i just
wanted to help us understand .

I agree fully.
This is not a topic I like to discuss because it separates us too much and I don't understand why.
A person is saved the moment he realizes that God exists and that he wishes to be a friend of God and obey God.
If a baby was baptized,,,that baptism IS valid, but some like to be rebaptized in the church of their choice.
Or maybe a person was never baptized....they should be.

I agree with you....if Jesus said to do it...we should...
even if we don't understand 100% as to the why.
I certainly don't understand.
But the writers of the NT did SEEM to make it be important.

So thanks for allowing me to clarify.

 

[Studyman]

Should and does are two different things.

Have your children always obeyed you? Would you cast them away if they didn't?

I don't believe how your children behave, or how you treat your children has anything to do with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 10, since they were written centuries before you were even born.

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I agree fully.
This is not a topic I like to discuss because it separates us too much and I don't understand why.
A person is saved the moment he realizes that God exists and that he wishes to be a friend of God and obey God.
If a baby was baptized,,,that baptism IS valid, but some like to be rebaptized in the church of their choice.
Or maybe a person was never baptized....they should be.

I agree with you....if Jesus said to do it...we should...
even if we don't understand 100% as to the why.
I certainly don't understand.
But the writers of the NT did SEEM to make it be important.

So thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Lets just clear up one wee tiny bit . A person is saved The moment he does exactly
what paul and silas told the jailer when he said but sirs what must i do to be saved . BELIEVE YE on JESUS the CHRIST .
Satan has many religoins my friend from the muslim to the buddist to scores of others .
THEY all THINK they beleive in GOD but the god they embrace be the devil . Sorry if that offends folks , but baby truth is truth
and i shun the all inclusive interfaith lie to hell if i could . This lamb is going out hard sister .
WITH JESUS on my lips and the continual reminder to BELIEVE ON HIM or perish . MUHAMMED is of the devil .
Now i know that dont sit right with the all inclusive church age but TRUTH be TRUTH and the truth is all other religoins
be of their father the devil . JESUS is whom we must preach .
To not beleive JESUS is TO NOT BELEIVE GOD . its that serious . If one beleives NOT the testimony that GOD
gave of the Son , they are calling GOD A LIAR to HIS FACE . john was right , todays interfaith pastors are THE LIARS and co helpers
of anti christ . I WILL expose them too , no matter the cost to me for doing so .
We got a new wild boar in the house and this one gonna staple a ton of doctrine that proves interfaith is of anti christ
on er church door if i could . I am war against this lie that has TROD JESUS under foot . And i shall not rest or back down .
ITS JESUS ONLY we must point too . no other hope or name gonna save this people .

 

[civic]

I agree fully.
This is not a topic I like to discuss because it separates us too much and I don't understand why.
A person is saved the moment he realizes that God exists and that he wishes to be a friend of God and obey God.
If a baby was baptized,,,that baptism IS valid, but some like to be rebaptized in the church of their choice.
Or maybe a person was never baptized....they should be.

I agree with you....if Jesus said to do it...we should...
even if we don't understand 100% as to the why.
I certainly don't understand.
But the writers of the NT did SEEM to make it be important.

So thanks for allowing me to clarify.

The Bible says believe and be baptized so how can an infant believe the gospel ?

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

The Bible says believe and be baptized so how can an infant believe the gospel ?

Spot on right my friend . spot on right .
What question did the eunach ask phillip . IT was a dire important questoin too .
LOOK see , here is water , what does HINDER me from being baptized .
What does HINDER me from being baptized .
HINDER ME from being baptized .
YE CAN IF YE BELIEVE WITH ALL YOUR HEART .........................
WHAT DOES HINDER , UNBELIEF HINDERS it . HE said YE MUST BELEIVE.
SO ME THINKS you just brought up a REAL LOVELY POINT .
but sirs what does hinder these infants from being baptized , OH YEAH THEY DONT YET BELEIVE . you spot on right my friend .
Foks think water saveth . that water does not one thing to that baby cept maybe MAKE IT CRY . guess it you want
to see a baby produce water from his or her eyes and maybe a puddle in its pants , GET IT BAPTIZED . cause that is about all
that water gonna do for that baby .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I just think that if Jesus said to do something, then we should do it.
John said he baptized for the forgiveness of sins (repentance) and that one would come after him
that would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to baptize in the Great Commission to the Apostles in Matthew 28:19.

NOW On this you have well said . IF JESUS said to do or not do to anything , we ought to heed HIM at every word .
WHICH DO INCLUDE his warnings against those who did not repent to believe on HIM .
WOE UNTO THEE
yet interfaith says ALL IS WELL UNTO THEE ye are coming to GOD your own way . I shun that anti christ message to hades if i could .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

The Bible says believe and be baptized so how can an infant believe the gospel ?

This church age has been led yet again into the upmost rebellion . ITs time men stand and start nailing some reminders
upon the hearts of this people . The wild boar returns to make war against the all inclusive whore and her daughters doctrine .
Cause the peoples are in deadly danger and well i just dont desire the death of any . Be blessed my friend .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

Now before i be accused of following luther , beleive me when i say i do not .
But i coined the phrase given him by the RCC when it called him the wild boar .
I did so due to the fact i had rather not use some names even christains have called me , like anti christ , son of perdtion , satan .
Cuase i sure dont want to say anti christ returns or son of perditon returns or satan returns .
SO WILD BOAR works fine for me . MY mind is fully persauded that no matter the cost to me all evil will be exposed
and TRUTH alone glorified .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

The Bible says believe and be baptized so how can an infant believe the gospel ?

When i seen the word believe just now a real clear thought came to me .
WHY do many cliam to BELIEVE IN JESUS the CHRIST and yet seem not TO BELEIVE HIS WORDS .
Oh lots lip they BELEIVE but then imply through interfaith lovey do junk there is no need for others TO BELEIVE on HIM .
What they dont realize is , THEY DONT BELIEVE HIM EITHER . its lip service , dead faith . pretty scary when you sit down
and really think about how many seem to NOT BELEIVE ALL HE said
yet BELEIVE SO FAST men who twist His words . they BELEIVE MEN , NOT GOD . that too is a fact .
But sheep heed CHRIST . Sheep test men .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I don't believe how your children behave, or how you treat your children has anything to do with Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 10, since they were written centuries before you were even born.

Yea rather i suggest you let that dear person know something .
GOD is not a man that he can DENY HIS OWN RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENTS .
SO while we know we would not cast our children into hell fire
REST ASSURED HE cannot DENY HIS OWN RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT .
BUT SINCE HE IS LOVE ITS WHY HE DID SEND THE SON so that all who DO BLEIEVE would not perish .
People try and humanize GOD way too much . not good to do such a thing .

 

[TOTHALORDBEALLGLORY]

I agree fully.
This is not a topic I like to discuss because it separates us too much and I don't understand why.
A person is saved the moment he realizes that God exists and that he wishes to be a friend of God and obey God.
If a baby was baptized,,,that baptism IS valid, but some like to be rebaptized in the church of their choice.
Or maybe a person was never baptized....they should be.

I agree with you....if Jesus said to do it...we should...
even if we don't understand 100% as to the why.
I certainly don't understand.
But the writers of the NT did SEEM to make it be important.

So thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Reread your first line again . DID JESUS ever fear to speak truth because he was concerned that the people just get along .
NOR can we .
Speak truth . yes it will offend and perhaps even offend the many , but TRUTH saves
Getting along , YEAH its not what will save . specially when Truth is removed for the sake of their getting along .
Real bad that is my friend . but its a card this church age has bought and its why leaven keeps growing .
The focus today is becoming more and more on WHETHER WE CAN GET ALONG and HOW TO GET ALONG
rather than the edification of the church itself and the saving of souls . This gets worse my friend . it will get worse .
Soon even the gospel will be something we cannot even teach cause well it offends and we just need to all get along .
I know this path my friend and it will end in bitter destruction and savage cries of wailing on the day of the LORD .
Satan is one slick one my friend and he always makes his errenous teachings seem as though ITS WHAT is best for man . but it aint
at all what is best for man . THE PATTERN set to us in that bible , IS WHAT is best for the church . I suggest we
get refreshed in them letters and gospels and all biblical doctrine once again .