Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun

As usual I'm correct when it comes to calvinism. :)

Websters and stanford below affirms this below, the calvinist affirms this with their proof texts here: Prov 16:4 ,1 Peter 2:8 and the WCF also affirms this in the confession. Romans 9 and double predestination also affirms its fatalism by the definition. As we see it makes God unjust.

from Stanford encyclopedia

Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”.

fatalism noun


fa·tal·ism | \ ˈfā-tə-ˌli-zəm \

Definition of fatalism : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine​

 
exactly you cannot engage the video.

The ironic thing is you have said how great Sam Shamoun is on this forum with Islam apologetics. The irony is Sam is saying the god of Islam is the same as the god of calvinism.. Now that he is exposing your beliefs you are running away from the topic.

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All this and only Tom, to his credit, has tried to answer as to why God does not stop the rape of innocent children.
Well that's refreshing that you're at least giving Tom credit for something. I agree Tom deserves credit.

You've been told however many, many times on this site why God allows evil to exist for he's given man free will. It doesn't please him the acts that some men do and grieves him immensely and a time will come when God will say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and judge the world but don't pretend you haven't been told why God allows evil to exist.

 
Nonsense I'm telling you to look at the historical context of what was happening and why in the things you brought up and showing you you can't rightly equate both things (which we were talking about) as being the same.
Since you made an appeal to Christian Think Tank please read this--

This was the largest annihilation/judgment to date (although it is very difficult to estimate with confidence the population at this time, especially given that 'violence' was at an extreme high and correspondingly would have made homicide rates horrendously high), and involved people, animals, and much vegetation (Gen 6-8). In a very incisive view of God's heart, we see the 'emotions' surrounding this apparent judgment:

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth -- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air -- for I am grieved that I have made them." (Gen 6.5ff)

We also see the rather violent nature of the crimes in Gen 6.13:

So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.


The story is familiar: (1) God decides to 'spare the innocent' again and warns Noah to build a boat for him and his household (apparently NOT so innocent);

(2) the evil/violence of the people were both against God and against humanity (Gen 6.12) and was VERY EXTENSIVE ("filled"); (3) some of the evil was probably sexual violence or violation (Gen 6.1-2); (4) Noah apparently "preached righteousness" to these people for AT LEAST a hundred years! (cf. 2 Pet 2.5); (5) this long period of preaching was an act of patience on God's part (I Pet 3.20);(6) in spite of the warnings, there were apparently no 'changed minds'.

Let's note again that (1) they had plenty of access to 'truth' (at LEAST 100 years) and at least a year of specific 'flood warnings'; (2) their crimes were violent and pervasive to God(!); (3) the annihilation was a judgment; (4) God was willing to spare the innocent people--if any could be found; (5) children living in the households of their evil parents would have undoubtedly died swiftly [the Flood was more of a sudden-event a la tidal waves, than a gradual rising water--cf. Gen 7.11: In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.]; (6) the one innocent man and woman are delivered (along with their children of the household).



The Amalekite initiative looks like an ordered annihilation.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" (I Sam 15.2f)
The situation is thus:

The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob.
They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev--a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel--had they believed the promises of God.

As soon as Israel escapes Egypt--before they can even 'catch their breath'--the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
Their first targets were the helpless:


Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).

Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).


Again-read the Scriptures, but read the whole article as well.
 
exactly you cannot engage the video.

The ironic thing is you have said how great Sam Shamoun is on this forum with Islam apologetics. The irony is Sam is saying the god of Islam is the same as the god of calvinism.. Now that he is exposing your beliefs you are running away from the topic.

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You have zero discernment-I am not a Calvinist but a follower of Jesus Christ.
Sam Shamoun should clean his mouth out with carbolic soap and is not fit to be a teacher of Scriptures.
 
No thanks we are discussing the connection between the god of Islam and the god of calvinism as Sam and the former Sunni Muslim in the video affirm.

Start another thread if you cannot stay on topic with this thread and watch the video so you can make an informed response.

hope this helps !!!
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You have zero discernment-I am not a Calvinist but a follower of Jesus Christ.
Sam Shamoun should clean his mouth out with carbolic soap and is not fit to be a teacher of Scriptures.
Yet you agree with him 100% with Islam. Oh the irony since that is his point in this video the connection between the god of Islam and the god of Calvinism.

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You are not going to win this one lol I remember everything you and I post on this forum. I know what teachers you have affirmed and Sam in one of them. You quote him for Muslims and JW’s as one of your sources.

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hope this helps. !!!
 
Since you made an appeal to Christian Think Tank please read this--

This was the largest annihilation/judgment to date (although it is very difficult to estimate with confidence the population at this time, especially given that 'violence' was at an extreme high and correspondingly would have made homicide rates horrendously high), and involved people, animals, and much vegetation (Gen 6-8). In a very incisive view of God's heart, we see the 'emotions' surrounding this apparent judgment:

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth -- men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air -- for I am grieved that I have made them." (Gen 6.5ff)

We also see the rather violent nature of the crimes in Gen 6.13:

So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them.


The story is familiar: (1) God decides to 'spare the innocent' again and warns Noah to build a boat for him and his household (apparently NOT so innocent);

(2) the evil/violence of the people were both against God and against humanity (Gen 6.12) and was VERY EXTENSIVE ("filled"); (3) some of the evil was probably sexual violence or violation (Gen 6.1-2); (4) Noah apparently "preached righteousness" to these people for AT LEAST a hundred years! (cf. 2 Pet 2.5); (5) this long period of preaching was an act of patience on God's part (I Pet 3.20);(6) in spite of the warnings, there were apparently no 'changed minds'.

Let's note again that (1) they had plenty of access to 'truth' (at LEAST 100 years) and at least a year of specific 'flood warnings'; (2) their crimes were violent and pervasive to God(!); (3) the annihilation was a judgment; (4) God was willing to spare the innocent people--if any could be found; (5) children living in the households of their evil parents would have undoubtedly died swiftly [the Flood was more of a sudden-event a la tidal waves, than a gradual rising water--cf. Gen 7.11: In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.]; (6) the one innocent man and woman are delivered (along with their children of the household).



The Amalekite initiative looks like an ordered annihilation.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. 3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'" (I Sam 15.2f)
The situation is thus:

The Amalekites are a predatory, raiding, and nomadic group; and are descendants of Esau (and hence, distant cousins to Israel).
They would have been aware of the promise of the Land TO Israel, from the early promises to Esau's twin Jacob.
They did NOT live in Canaan (but in the lower, desert part of the Negev--a region south of where Judah will eventually settle), and would NOT have been threatened by Israel--had they believed the promises of God.

As soon as Israel escapes Egypt--before they can even 'catch their breath'--the Amalekites make a long journey south(!) and attack Israel.
Their first targets were the helpless:


Remember what the Amalekites did to you along the way when you came out of Egypt. 18 When you were weary and worn out, they met you on your journey and cut off all who were lagging behind; they had no fear of God. 19 When the LORD your God gives you rest from all the enemies around you in the land he is giving you to possess as an inheritance, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven. Do not forget! (Deut 25.17-19).

Before the attack on Amalek is initiated by Israel, the innocent are told to 'move away' from them: Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine. 6 Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites. (I Sam 15.5f). This action would have also served to give the people of Amalek plenty of notice (i.e., time to 'move away' themselves), and the impending attack by Saul--especially with the troop counts reported!--would hardly have been a surprise. Some of them would likely have fled--we KNOW all of them were not killed, since they 'lived to fight/raid again' in David's time (I Sam 27,30) and even in Hezekiah's time (200-300 years later!, 1 Chr 4.43).


Again-read the Scriptures, but read the whole article as well.
All your going to get is deflection and dodging.
 
Well that's refreshing that you're at least giving Tom credit for something. I agree Tom deserves credit.

You've been told however many, many times on this site why God allows evil to exist for he's given man free will. It doesn't please him the acts that some men do and grieves him immensely and a time will come when God will say, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and judge the world but don't pretend you haven't been told why God allows evil to exist.
It's not about why He allows evil to exist. The question is why does He simply sit by and watch innocent, according to Provisionism, children be raped or murdered. WHY??
 
All your going to get is deflection and dodging.
That’s your camp. But the fact remains in the video both the former Muslim and Calvinist connect the dots between the god of Islam and the god of Calvinism. They are the same fatalistic gods.
 
It's not about why He allows evil to exist. The question is why does He simply sit by and watch innocent, according to Provisionism, children be raped or murdered. WHY??
Your system which is the topic of the OP has god ordaining it for his pleasure and glory. It’s the same god as the militant Islamic jihads.

It’s time you face the facts

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All your going to get is deflection and dodging.
I'm used to this-circular reasoning. However-if this was a debate on YouTube there would be no way to hide in a corner as I have personally watched hundred's of debates in real time and online.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
 
I'm used to this-circular reasoning. However-if this was a debate on YouTube there would be no way to hide in a corner as I have personally watched hundred's of debates in real time and online.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.
You are the foremost expert with such reasoning.

Shalom

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