Determinism in Calvinism and the Reformed Confessions

[Presby02]

Still deceptive

context not word order proves the point

Seeing as I never argued based on word order but context your comments are rather dishonest

In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.



John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.



John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you

Still refusing to abide by his own standard. Here it is for the lurkers.

"word order does not establish temporal sequence"

 

[atpollard]

The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.

"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).

Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.

"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."

"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."

Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.

("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.

YES!!!

And back at verse 5 it was done “while we were yet dead”! The gift … whole thing.
We were given faith … that we might believe … that we would join the saved … from God’s love, made alive, while we were yet dead. Can God express it any stronger using human language.

 

[TomL]

Still refusing to abide by his own standard. Here it is for the lurkers.

"word order does not establish temporal sequence"

Except I did not argue for word order here

Still deceptive

context not word order proves the point

Seeing as I never argued based on word order but context your comments are rather dishonest

In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.



John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.



John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you

 

[Presby02]

YES!!!

And back at verse 5 it was done “while we were yet dead”! The gift … whole thing.

He forgets faith is part of the plan of salvation.

 

[Presby02]

Except I did not argue for word order here

Still deceptive

context not word order proves the point

Seeing as I never argued based on word order but context your comments are rather dishonest

In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.



John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.



John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you

"word order does not establish temporal sequence". You undercut your own arguement.

 

[civic]

Article 14 Canons of Dort 3rd and fourth head of doctrine states, “Faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent—the act of believing—from man’s choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.”



Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)

There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.

In brief, the views are as follows.

1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.

2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.

3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."

1. Infused Faith.

Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. (RCC & Calvinism my note) Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.

This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.

2. Faith is a gift.

It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.

3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.

To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.

"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).

Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.

"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."

"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."

Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.

("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.

This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.

However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.

This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.

This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.

good one caught in a giant pickle lol.

 

[TomL]

good one caught in a giant pickle lol.

Yep

 

[TomL]

"word order does not establish temporal sequence". You undercut your own arguement.

Except i never made an argument based on word order and you are being deceptive

In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.



John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.



John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you

 

[TomL]

YES!!!

And back at verse 5 it was done “while we were yet dead”! The gift … whole thing.
We were given faith … that we might believe … that we would join the saved … from God’s love, made alive, while we were yet dead. Can God express it any stronger using human language.

And in the fuller statement of verse 8

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

it is through faith

so the dead man need faith before being made alive

thus faith precedes regeneration (being made alive)

confirmed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[civic]

Except i never made an argument based on word order and you are being deceptive

In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result

John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.



John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.



John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you

Yes he is arguing a strawman just like his theology

 

[TomL]

Yes he is arguing a strawman just like his theology

Readers should note how far Calvinists are willing to go to defend their theology; not scripture mind you but their theology

 

[atpollard]

Readers should note how far Calvinists are willing to go to defend their theology; not scripture mind you but their theology

… and how full of hate anti-Calvinists are towards fellow believers in Christ (attacking “Calvinism” is an attack on a belief system, while ad hominem comments about “Calvinists” is attacking the actual Christians for whom Christ died.)

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

… and how full of hate anti-Calvinists are towards fellow believers in Christ (attacking “Calvinism” is an attack on a belief system, while ad hominem comments about “Calvinists” is attacking the actual Christians for whom Christ died.)

Amen. The thread "why are Calvinists so mean" is amazingly ironic.

 

[atpollard]

And in the fuller statement of verse 8

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

it is through faith

so the dead man need faith before being made alive

thus faith precedes regeneration (being made alive)

confirmed

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

How long is the time lag between receiving Faith, believing, and God accepting the faith?
Can a person receive faith and die before they have a chance to believe?
Can a person receive faith and believe, but die before God accepts that faith and saves them (“made them alive” as Eph 2:5 words it)?

You are applying temporal conditions to an Ordo Salutis that is merely a logical construct (order) rather than a temporal construct (physical chain of cause-event reactions in real time).

 

[TomL]

How long is the time lag between receiving Faith, believing, and God accepting the faith?

?????

Why would you ask such a question. It does not fit your world view

nor does a time lag fit into mine

Can a person receive faith and die before they have a chance to believe?
Can a person receive faith and believe, but die before God accepts that faith and saves them (“made them alive” as Eph 2:5 words it)?

You are applying temporal conditions to an Ordo Salutis that is merely a logical construct (order) rather than a temporal construct (physical chain of cause-event reactions in real time).

Actually you are mistaken

a logical construct is more than sufficient

if salvation is dependent upon faith, then faith must logically precede salvation even if they happen simultaneously time wise

 

[TomL]

… and how full of hate anti-Calvinists are towards fellow believers in Christ (attacking “Calvinism” is an attack on a belief system, while ad hominem comments about “Calvinists” is attacking the actual Christians for whom Christ died.)

Its the theology which misrepresents God the ire is directed at. Historically however Calvinists are in no position to point fingers

Aside from that I do not think anyone hates you. I know I do not

 

[atpollard]

?????

Why would you ask such a question. It does not fit your world view

nor does a time lag fit into mine





Actually you are mistaken

a logical construct is more than sufficient

if salvation is dependent upon faith, then faith must logically precede salvation even if they happen simultaneously time wise

Not if the PERSON must act AFTER the giving of the gift but BEFORE the receipt of salvation as Free Will Synergism requires. Then it is NOT instantaneous. Thus my question about exactly how long does it take and can things go awry in that “non-zero” time interval.

If God gives the gift, we believe, and God saves us INSTANTANEOUSLY … that is Monergism … that is what TULIP and the Doctrines of Grace claim! God did it all.

 

[Clifford]

If God actually brings everything to pass by determining all things then we must conclude the following about the doctrine.

1- God has determined that I post this thread there could be no other result since it was predestined, determined, caused to happen in eternity past
2- God wants me to oppose calvinism it since He decreed it to happen
3- God intentionally causes division within the church in that I oppose calvinism
4- God determined that I leave calvinism after believing it for over 40 years
5- God desires and directs me to post daily he things that are unbiblical about calvinism and bright them to light
6- God has determined beforehand that all the calvinists and non calvinists read my posts
7- God wants the calvinists to leave calvinism just like I did since it was His will for me to leave calvinism
8- God has a purpose why He is leaving you in calvinism
9- God has a purpose why I left calvinism
10- Gods will is that you believe calvinism and I reject it.
11- God is not the God of Confusion as clearly stated in the Bible
12- Gods determinism in Calvinism as shown above cannot be true in any way, shape or form.
13- The WCF and other confessions are nothing but doubletalk as demonstrated above.

@Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato @atpollard @makesends

Lets discuss.

hope this helps !!!

I like This

 

[atpollard]

[SINCE] God actually brings everything to pass by determining all things, then we must conclude the following about the doctrine.

1- God has determined that I post this thread there could be no other result since it was predestined, determined, caused to happen in eternity past

First point, a minor point, I fixed your OP [you are not really denying the Biblical claim that God works all things according to His will, you want to challenge the tenants of Calvinism].

Second, starting with point #1 …

• I am unfamiliar with the verse that states God determined all minute details in eternity past. Scripture is clear that God determined some things in eternity past … specifically, the predestination of some specifically for salvation (aka. Election) … and Jesus Christ as the means of salvation.
• Given the biblical silence on predestined minutia, ANY answer is human speculation rather than ‘God-breathed’ Truth.
• Some would argue that if a single atom in the universe is not under God’s control, then God is not really in control. They would say that you are correct (you posted what you posted because it was God’s plan that you should post EXACTLY that). Within this group, some would argue for “compatibility” and claim that it was God’s plan for you to post that exact message, but God had no need to compel you to do anything you did not desire to do. YOU wanted to post that message without any input from God as much as God’s plan knew that you would post it and predestined the posting of that message as a part of His plan.
• I, personally, see the merit in the compatibility argument, but take a slightly different view. Looking at Romans 1, I see an image of Humans with a propensity to do what is contrary to the LAW and NATURE of God with predictable certainty. I see a God who exercises His right of sovereign restraint to allow only so much evil. Like the oceans and the tide, the hand of God says “this far and no further” even as the mind of God knows exactly what you will do with any given amount of freedom. Thus the plan of God is as certain as if God actively controlled every thought and action, but God has no need to violate any free will, merely the right to restrain the evil He will permit from any fallen nature.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

• Given the biblical silence on predestined minutia, ANY answer is human speculation rather than ‘God-breathed’ Truth.

It's not totally silent. Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from the Father. That's pretty minute.