RCC to its core
Determinism in Calvinism and the Reformed Confessions
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atpollard
Well-known member
I will be Happy to address this as soon as we deal with the “IF” question.
- It matters if you are a “bible-denying heretic” or I am “tare among the wheat”.
Hmmm if spiritually dead means you cannot believe
then dead to sin must mean you are unable to sin
atpollard
Well-known member
Neither did I.
Are you REALLY unfamiliar with these scripture references to FAITH:
- a gift from God
- a gift of the Spirit
- the author and finisher of faith
atpollard
Well-known member
Perhaps YOUR “infused faith fallacy” … I am ignorant of such things. I only have what I read in the Bible to go by. That is why I referenced THREE WITNESSES from the Word of God that have been conveniently ignored in favor of an appeal to name calling to allow dismissal of the Word of God without having to address it.
Enjoy your Kool-Aid.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Amen. I asked in another thread for someone to give me the name of a person who has not sinned of their own free will. There is no answer besides Jesus, because we are born slaves to sin. Even if a newborn does not sin, that newborn is a slave to sin and will be sinful as soon as he/she is able.
To anticipate a common rebuttal: It does not mean that a newborn who dies goes to hell. God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.
civic
Well-known member
Bingo
Rockson
Well-known member
Many, many, many times on here I've quoted from the Westminster Confession. The London Confession no but I've checked it. Pretty much the same as the Westminster. So what's your point? Maybe you can tell me what you think they're saying.
civic
Well-known member
Seems like you drank some of Augustine and Calvin kool-aid.
I’m Sola scripture
and don’t follow the teachings of uninspired men’s writingshope this helps !!!
atpollard
Well-known member
Your (logical) conclusion from the stated paradox is not the only possible conclusion.
That was my only point.
atpollard
Well-known member
Except for the second chapter of Paul’s letter to the Ephesians and the three verses on “faith” that I referenced and have been either denied or left laying in the dust untouched except for “ad hominem” for daring to mention such apostate RCC verses.Seems like you drank some of Augustine and Calvin kool-aid.
I’m Sola scripture
hope this helps !!!
After all, no matter WHAT Paul may have written, Calvin murdered Servetus and Augustine was a Gnostic … so nothing Scripture says that agrees with anything they wrote can be true!
Or maybe you can sin and Calvinist misuse the term dead
Um saving Faith is never called a gift from God
The Spirit is given to those with faith
Does not mean what you think
For "author," render "leader or captain," and see the note at <Hebrews 2:10>. For "finisher," render "perfecter." For "our faith," render "faith" or "the faith." Not our Christian faith, but faith absolutely, as exhibited in the whole range of believers from Abel to Christ. Christ cannot be called the author or originator of faith, since the faith here treated existed and worked before Christ. Christ is the leader or captain of faith, in that he is the perfecter of faith. In himself he furnished the perfect development, the supreme example of faith, and in virtue of this he is the leader of the whole believing host in all time. Notice the recurrence of the favorite idea of perfecting. Compare <Hebrews 2:10; 5:9; 6:1; 7:11,19,28; 9:9; 10:1,14; 11:40>. Teleiootees (grk 5051) "perfecter," occurs only here in the New Testament, not occurring in the Septuagint. Not occurring in Classical writers. (from Vincent’s Word Studies of the New Testament)
Calvinists also often misapply Hebrews 12:2 to this concept of faith being an exclusive gift to a Gnostic-style set of pre-selected elect people. The use of this verse is the equivalent of the Calvinist screaming at the top of his lungs that context means nothing to him and that he has no idea what the passage is talking about. They see their buzz words and think that it is an excellent opportunity for them to import their ideas, and in so doing, they miss the entire point, and self[1]identify as the milk-sop in Hebrews 5:11-13. This is not a text book of theological proof texts.When Calvinists use this verse, the idea they’re bringing to it is that Jesus is authoring the individual’s volitional belief in the gospel and then carries that belief through until the person’s death. But this has absolutely nothing to do with that nonsense whatsoever. This verse is addressing the continuity of the faith for the Jew from the Mosaic Torah and Old Testament to faith in Christ under the New Testament. The tempting mindset for the Jew of that day would be to say that “Jehovah and Moses got us started in our faith, and now we’ve changed channels so Jesus and wrap it up and finish it off.”Hebrews 12:2 (KJV) 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Back in chapter 1, the author reminded the reader that the same God who spoke to their fathers in times past in diverse and sundry manners has now spoken through His Son, Jesus Christ. Then in chapter two, don’t let these things slip. Then by time the epistle (or midrash) is about to be wrapped up, the writer reminds the reader that this is not two different programs. They did not transition from the Old Testament to the New Testament to start a brand new system of faith or a new religion, but that this same Jesus is the author of everything that their fathers ever rightly believed as deliberated back in chapter 11, and it is the same Jesus who is the finisher. Thus, Jesus is “the author and finisher of our faith,” the audience being Hebrews who have relatively recently come to believe in Jesus of Nazareth as the Savior and Jewish Messiah.Even if one wanted to take this concept out of the context and apply it the way Calvinists eisegete it, it still would not help them. Of course Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith. How could someone put their faith in Jesus if there was no Jesus to put their faith in? Jesus is a real historical person, and He is the manifestation in the flesh of the real, historical God. There can be no faith without the object of that faith first presenting itself for trust and reliance.
Article 14 Canons of Dort 3rd and fourth head of doctrine states, “Faith is a gift of God, not in the sense that it is offered by God for man to choose, but that it is in actual fact bestowed on man, breathed and infused into him. Nor is it a gift in the sense that God bestows only the potential to believe, but then awaits assent—the act of believing—from man’s choice; rather, it is a gift in the sense that he who works both willing and acting and, indeed, works all things in all people produces in man both the will to believe and the belief itself.”
Faith: Is it a gift infused, a gift received, or a decision to believe?
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJ)
There are several views of the role of faith in Ephesians Chapter 2 verses 8-9. It might be helpful to examine briefly these views. These two verses are acknowledged to be scripture by those who accept the New Testament. The different concepts of the role of faith come from trying to understand what these two verses mean. There are, at least, three basic views regarding the role of faith in these two verses.
In brief, the views are as follows.
1. Faith as an infused gift of God. Faith is believed to be infused into the person who is dead-like. While dead, they become gifted with saving faith. In this sense, faith is an infused gift from God. This view holds that no one is saved unless God imparted the gift of faith into them.
2. Faith as a received gift of God. The gift of faith is welcomed and received by a lost sinner who feels his or her deep need of salvation. With this gift of faith, he or she believes the gospel. This view emphasizes the acceptance of the "gift" of faith by the sinner. The sinner willingly and knowingly receives the gift of faith and has believing faith. In this sense, the sinner willingly, knowingly, and actively receives the gift of faith.
3. Faith as a personal decision to believe the gospel. This view holds that the gift of God does not refer to the word, faith; rather it refers to the whole plan of salvation. This view teaches that the whole "by grace you are saved through faith" plan of salvation is the gift of God. For Israel in the Old Testament, the plan was "by the law you are blessed through obedience." The OT involved the "keeping the law." The New Testament involves "faith in Christ." The OT was a system of "works." The NT is based upon "grace."
1. Infused Faith.
Probably the most popular view is that faith is infused into a sinner. (RCC & Calvinism my note) Since the human population is held to be incapable of believing the gospel message, it is necessary for God to impart living faith into the dead and unresponsive sinner. After the Holy Spirit has imparted faith into the sinner, the person is able to accept the gospel of salvation.
This view emphasizes the sovereignty of God in saving souls. Whoever God sovereignly chooses to impart life and faith, comes to faith.
2. Faith is a gift.
It is easy to see why this view would be thought to be the case. A straight forward reading of the passage would lead one to believe that faith was itself the gift. Granting that faith is a gift, a gift still has to be received by the one to whom it is offered. So, even this second view requires acceptance of the gift and belief in the Savior by the lost sinner. In effect, it is similar to the third view. It holds that the sinner has some form of real faith in the value of the offer of the gospel.
3. The gift is not faith but the entire plan of salvation.
To understand this view, one needs to understand that some languages have nouns with gender. For example, nouns in Spanish have masculine, feminine or neuter genders. The words, faith and grace are both feminine in Greek while the word, "that" is neuter. So, the sentence reads as follows.
"For by grace (feminine) you have been saved through faith (feminine), and that (neuter).
Some Greek scholars note that "that (neuter)" must refer to the whole phrase. They argue that if "that (neuter)" referred to "faith (feminine)," the word "that" should be feminine and not neuter.
"that" neuter in Greek is "touto, τοῦτο."
"that" feminine in Greek is "taute, ταύτῃ."
Consequently, the phrase may be read as follows.
("For by grace are you saved through faith") that ... is the gift of God. It is not the OT system of laws. It is not ours personal merit or our good deeds. The gift of God is the plan of salvation that is offered in free grace to all sinners who come in faith to the Savior.
This view thinks that God's sovereignty is shown in the words "by grace" and that human responsibility is shown in the words "through faith." God offers salvation as a gift freely to all. There is just one condition for the gift of salvation. The gift of salvation must be accepted in faith. The free offer of salvation is to all races, nations, tribes, peoples, and languages. It is for wicked sinners, polite sinners, socialites, religious devotees, stoned drug addicts, and social outcasts.
However, there is the one condition on the part of the sinner, "faith." The sinner must "believe" the gospel of the grace of God. This faith is apart from works. It is a non-meritorious faith, but it is an absolutely necessity. Salvation is offered freely, but the sinner must be received the offer by faith.
This last view holds that God works through the Holy Spirit who convicts, compels, and convinces the sinner of his or her need of salvation. However, the Holy Spirit does not force a sinner to accept the gracious offer of salvation. The sinner may choose to resist the Holy Spirit's gracious invitation. Furthermore, this view holds that the sinner must really believe the gospel. God cannot believe for us. We must believe, or we will be eternally damned. In this view, human beings have the responsibility (responsibility, i.e., the ability to respond) to accept the gospel message.
This view believes that God's sovereignty and human responsibility meet in the phrase "for by grace are you saved through faith." Since there is free grace on God's part, and, if there is real faith on the sinner's part, eternal salvation will be the outcome for the sinner.
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And you are not showing yourself to be consistent. Shocking I know.
Here, one more time:
General Tom, (Provisionist): "word order does not establish temporal sequence"..
Agreed Tom
So Tom will let us know when word order is important.
"word order does not establish temporal "
Could you list all the verses where your quote is applicable and where it is not? LOL The rest of the church would like to know.
You are showing yourself dishonest as my argument was built on context not word order
Sorry my argument was never based on word order but context
You cannot show where I ever suggested the word order of the verses selected was the important factor
so you are being disingenuous and that is not to your credit
Word order is not the issue context is
One must do something to obtain the result
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
here is another
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
and another
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Try to honestly deal with those verses rather than the false diversion you resorted to
It really makes you look like someone who has determined to hide from the truth
Seeing as I never argued based on word order but context your comments are rather dishonest
In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you
You don't have to. I answered with the answer you gave when word order was in question. Which your clearly claiming here.
General tom the Provisionist: " word order does not establish temporal sequence".
Still deceptive
context not word order proves the point
Seeing as I never argued based on word order but context your comments are rather dishonest
In each case One must do something in order to obtain a result
John 20:31 (NASB 2020) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that by believing you may have life in His name.
John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
That you diverge and do not address the real argument pretending it is something else does not speak well of you
