Another former Calvinist Sam Shamoun

Nothing happens outside God's will-

I disagree. You're reading a commentary. I've dealt with every single one of those verses you posted many times in my life. If you want to go line by line and word by word through them all, I will. Post them one at a time. Post by post and let me interact with you in this.

To "head you off" let mention one myself.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus said very clearly that His desire for Israel was for them to be under His wing.......

Yet, what happened?

The will of Jesus was for them to do so. However, God allowed them to disobey Him.

Such beliefs as you're exposing are coping mechanisms. It relives us our own guilt and culpability. God doesn't deserve such claims against Him.
 
I disagree. You're reading a commentary. I've dealt with every single one of those verses you posted many times in my life. If you want to go line by line and word by word through them all, I will. Post them one at a time. Post by post and let me interact with you in this.

To "head you off" let mention one myself.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus said very clearly that His desire for Israel was for them to be under His wing.......

Yet, what happened?

The will of Jesus was for them to do so. However, God allowed them to disobey Him.

Such beliefs as you're exposing are coping mechanisms. It relives us our own guilt and culpability. God doesn't deserve such claims against Him.
I'm amazed-you have read these verses many times in your life and still cannot conclude that God is aware of everything? Upholding EVERYTHING by the dunamis of His D'var/Word?

Heb 1:3 Who being the Shechinah zohar (brilliance) of Hashem and the exact impress and demut of Hashem's essential nature, being, and reality, and sustaining everything by his Dvar HaKo'ach, after he made tihur (purification) of chatta'im (sins), sat down at LIMIN ("the right hand" TEHILLIM 110:1) of the Majesty on High.



Scripture on Jesus Upholding Everything by the Power of His Word

The primary scripture that explicitly states Jesus upholds everything by the power of His word is found in the book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:3 (ESV)
"He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high."

Exegesis and Morphology
Context and Overview
Hebrews 1:3 is a profound statement about the person and work of Jesus Christ. It is part of the opening chapter of Hebrews, which sets forth the superiority of Christ over all things. The verse describes Jesus' divine nature, His sustaining power, and His redemptive work.

Detailed Exegesis
"Radiance of the glory of God" (ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης τοῦ Θεοῦ, apaugasma tēs doxēs tou Theou):

ἀπαύγασμα (apaugasma): This noun means "radiance" or "reflection," indicating that Jesus perfectly reflects God's glory.
δόξης (doxēs): This noun means "glory," referring to God's magnificent and divine presence.
"Exact imprint of his nature" (χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, charaktēr tēs hypostaseōs autou):

χαρακτὴρ (charaktēr): This noun means "exact imprint" or "representation," indicating Jesus fully represents God's essence.
ὑποστάσεως (hypostaseōs): This noun means "nature" or "substance," referring to God's inherent being.
"Upholds the universe by the word of his power" (φέροντα τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ, pheronta ta panta tō rhēmati tēs dynameōs autou):

φέροντα (pheronta): This present participle means "upholding" or "sustaining," indicating a continuous action.
τὰ πάντα (ta panta): This phrase means "all things" or "the universe."
ῥήματι (rhēmati): This noun means "word," emphasizing the authoritative command of Christ.
δυνάμεως (dynameōs): This noun means "power," indicating the divine power of Jesus.
"Making purification for sins" (καθαρισμὸν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ποιησάμενος, katharismon tōn hamartiōn poiēsamenos):

καθαρισμὸν (katharismon): This noun means "purification" or "cleansing."
ἁμαρτιῶν (hamartiōn): This noun means "sins."
ποιησάμενος (poiēsamenos): This aorist participle means "having made," indicating a completed action.
"Sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς Μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς, ekathisen en dexia tēs Megalosynēs en hypsilois):

ἐκάθισεν (ekathisen): This verb means "sat down," indicating a position of authority and completion of His work.
δεξιᾷ (dexia): This noun means "right hand," symbolizing power and honor.
Μεγαλωσύνης (Megalosynēs): This noun means "Majesty," referring to God's supreme authority.
ὑψηλοῖς (hypsilois): This adjective means "in the heights" or "on high," indicating God's exalted position.
Supporting Scriptures
While Hebrews 1:3 is the most direct reference, other scriptures support the idea of Jesus’ sustaining power:

Colossians 1:17 (ESV):

"And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together."
This verse emphasizes Jesus’ role in holding the universe together.
John 1:3 (ESV):

"All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."
This indicates that Jesus is not only the creator but also the sustainer of all things.


Matthew 28:18 (ESV):

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'"
This underscores the authority of Jesus over all creation.


Conclusion
Hebrews 1:3 explicitly states that Jesus upholds the universe by the word of His power. The exegesis and morphology of the key terms reveal the continuous and authoritative nature of Jesus’ sustaining work. This concept is further supported by other scriptures such as Colossians 1:17 and John 1:3, which collectively affirm Jesus’ supreme authority and sustaining power over all creation.

Thanks
Johann.
 
Nobody has ever said God doesn't bring judgments to nations. All Non Calvinists believe that. That's a far, far cry however from trying to assert EVERY thought and action carried out by men on the Earth however insidious, base, impure and corrupt is God ordained. Your claims that God is behind ALL things I'm sorry but it's a diabolical way of thinking about the character of God. I'm sure he's speaking through his servants to Calvinists a message to stop and give him a break and stop misrepresenting his character down upon the Earth. It's called being a part of a problem and not a part of the solution.
Why would "innocent" children face judgement? Judgemeent fot what?
 
I told you why? It's all in my post #61.

If you don't agree with what I said in that post then at least tell me what I did say. I'm sure you can do that can't you? It's only two small paragraphs of words.
We are not talking about sin. Good try.

We are talking about why your God does not stop innocent children from being raped or murdered. So no, you did not answer the question. Only Tom has to this point.
 
I disagree. You're reading a commentary. I've dealt with every single one of those verses you posted many times in my life. If you want to go line by line and word by word through them all, I will. Post them one at a time. Post by post and let me interact with you in this.

To "head you off" let mention one myself.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus said very clearly that His desire for Israel was for them to be under His wing.......

Yet, what happened?

The will of Jesus was for them to do so. However, God allowed them to disobey Him.

Such beliefs as you're exposing are coping mechanisms. It relives us our own guilt and culpability. God doesn't deserve such claims against Him.
Get use to cut n paste responses without making one’s own argument.
 
I'm amazed-you have read these verses many times in your life and still cannot conclude that God is aware of everything? Upholding EVERYTHING by the dunamis of His D'var/Word?[/COLOR][/B]

I'm asking you not to overwhelming the subject with such a large post. This is a conversation and I'm not going to participate in if you're just going to claim victory with such a large response.

Quote me where I said that God isn't aware of everything?

I didn't say that. The act of allowing something to happen within the construct of an previous creation is not the same as God actively being involved in a new creation event.

For example,

If I manufacture a firearm with the intent of that person being able to hunt and feed themselves, doesn't equal me (the manufacturer) taking the gun and murdering's someone else with it. That is what Cain did from the beginning. He took what God had made and used it for Evil. God didn't want Abel murdered.

This is well within a Biblical construct of the Sovereignty of God.

May I asked why you avoided.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

If Luke 13:34 is true, and it is, then your circumstantial arguments concerning the other verses can not be applied the way you're insist they be. I've study the subject extensively. I began debating this topic since the 80s. I began debating the topic on the internet in the early to mid 90s. I've had more conversations on this topic than I care to remember. I'm sure you've examined them too. I'm not saying you haven't. You do tend to give weight to commentary than possibilities that your commentary of choice is wrong. I abandoned my inadequate theology when I was in my early 20s. I decided to construct what I believe with study and effort. (I haven't arrived). I do this because I don't believe God will accept the excuse of "that is what my teacher told me" when we face Him one day soon.

Those at Berea questioned everything the apostles said. They were labeled "noble" for doing so.[/color][/b]
 
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That's true, but it is important to note that they searched the scripture to question what they apostles said. They didn't question it using man-centered logic.

I didn't use that type of logic. You used man centered logic to question my logic.... :)

See where that logic ends? I can agree that there are paradoxical events that have no clear answer, I'm rejecting what you consider those to be.
 
I'm asking you not to overwhelming the subject with such a large post. This is a conversation and I'm not going to participate in if you're just going to claim victory with such a large response.

Quote me where I said that God isn't aware of everything?

I didn't say that. The act of allowing something to happen within the construct of an previous creation is not the same as God actively being involved in a new creation event.

For example,

If I manufacture a firearm with the intent of that person being able to hunt and feed themselves, doesn't equal me (the manufacturer) taking the gun and murdering's someone else with it. That is what Cain did from the beginning. He took what God had made and used it for Evil. God didn't want Abel murdered.

This is well within a Biblical construct of the Sovereignty of God.

May I asked why you avoided.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

If Luke 13:34 is true, and it is, then your circumstantial arguments concerning the other verses can not be applied the way you're insist they be. I've study the subject extensively. I began debating this topic since the 80s. I began debating the topic on the internet in the early to mid 90s. I've had more conversations on this topic than I care to remember. I'm sure you've examined them too. I'm not saying you haven't. You do tend to give weight to commentary than possibilities that your commentary of choice is wrong. I abandoned my inadequate theology when I was in my early 20s. I decided to construct what I believe with study and effort. (I haven't arrived). I do this because I don't believe God will accept the excuse of "that is what my teacher told me" when we face Him one day soon.

Those at Berea questioned everything the apostles said. They were labeled "noble" for doing so.[/color][/b]
See post #97.

I said I believe God is aware of everything in this world and nothing is outside His boule/will-you disagreed.

I am not here to score a point or to "win" brother.

My apology if I came across as knowing it all-I don't.

Shalom
Johann.
 
See post #97.

I said I believe God is aware of everything in this world and nothing is outside His boule/will-you disagreed.

I am not here to score a point or to "win" brother.

My apology if I came across as knowing it all-I don't.

Shalom
Johann.

No problem. You didn't come across as being such. Just making the point about myself.

Knowing is not agreement. He beholds the good and evil of men.

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
 
I'm asking you not to overwhelming the subject with such a large post. This is a conversation and I'm not going to participate in if you're just going to claim victory with such a large response.

Quote me where I said that God isn't aware of everything?

I didn't say that. The act of allowing something to happen within the construct of an previous creation is not the same as God actively being involved in a new creation event.

For example,

If I manufacture a firearm with the intent of that person being able to hunt and feed themselves, doesn't equal me (the manufacturer) taking the gun and murdering's someone else with it. That is what Cain did from the beginning. He took what God had made and used it for Evil. God didn't want Abel murdered.

This is well within a Biblical construct of the Sovereignty of God.

May I asked why you avoided.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

If Luke 13:34 is true, and it is, then your circumstantial arguments concerning the other verses can not be applied the way you're insist they be. I've study the subject extensively. I began debating this topic since the 80s. I began debating the topic on the internet in the early to mid 90s. I've had more conversations on this topic than I care to remember. I'm sure you've examined them too. I'm not saying you haven't. You do tend to give weight to commentary than possibilities that your commentary of choice is wrong. I abandoned my inadequate theology when I was in my early 20s. I decided to construct what I believe with study and effort. (I haven't arrived). I do this because I don't believe God will accept the excuse of "that is what my teacher told me" when we face Him one day soon.

Those at Berea questioned everything the apostles said. They were labeled "noble" for doing so.[/color][/b]
Some don’t understand the concept of a conversation lol
 
Did God really determine evil and sin as Calvinism teaches ?

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history–and according to John Piper this includes every one of your personal, besetting sins (quote below). Just think about the insidious implications of such a view. If a rapist or pedophile were to declare in a courtroom, “God caused me to do it!” we would denouce him as a liar or a lunatic. However when a Calvinist declares more a less the same thing behind their pulpit (substituting “caused” for “decreed” or “determined”), he is extolled as being biblical!


I cannot tell you how often I hear people retort, “That’s not what Calvinists believe! I’m a Calvinist and I don’t believe God predetermined all my sin!” My typical response is, “Well then welcome to Arminianism because you certainly can’t be a Calvinist.” Usually this is not received very well because they have already been indoctrinated and propagandized into believing that Arminianism is a man-centered, man-glorifying, anti-grace heresy. More often than not the people I speak of are novice Calvinists who have been hoodwinked into a high-Calvinist, Reformed theology by a Piper sermon that conveniently left out all the ugly, sinister implications and absurdities that accompany swallowing Calvinism in toto.


If you are a recent devotee of Calvinism I can only imagine that I have only precious seconds to prove the indisputable assertion that Calvinism-Reformed theology is founded on the tenet that God sovereignly predetermines (whether through hard determinism or compatibilism) every decision and choice humans make–including sin and evil.


Here are a list of quotes from leading, mainstream Calvinists over the years that speak of this inescapable fact (I offer follow-up comments to help clarify the remarks and to the best of my knowledge have taken no one out of context):


*All bold type and emphasis is mine*


John Calvin:


*** “Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.”[1]


[The question must be asked—how are men held responsible for sinful choices that flow out of wills that are “governed as to move exactly in the course which God has destined?”]


*** “Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.”[2]


[In Calvinism God is the logical origin and thus author of every sinful thought or choice men make. How else to explain Calvinism’s teaching that all our decreed decisions and deliberations are initiated by the “secret instigation of God” that he infallibly “brings to pass by his secret direction?”]


*** “The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.”[3]


[Calvinists are well-known for redefining free-will as being “free to act in accordance with our strongest desires.” However what they leave out is the pivotal point that God has also causally predetermined which desires act upon our wills. Here Calvin admits that for God to achieve a predestined, external action in a person, he must effectively “work in their hearts to make them will before they act.”]


*** “The will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things.”[4]


[There is no getting around the logical implications of this. Whether a modern-day Calvinist admits it or not his theology is logically and necessarily undergirded by the premise that God’s will is the ultimate causal force behind every sinful choice and act of rebellion throughout human history.]


*** “If God controls the purposes of men, and turns their thoughts and exertions to whatever purpose he pleases, men do not therefore cease to form plans and to engage in this or the other undertaking. We must not suppose that there is a violent compulsion, as if God dragged them against their will; but in a wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men, so that they still have the exercise of their will.“[5]


[On the one hand Calvin wants to say that God’s will of decree regulates, turns and infallibly controls the thoughts and actions of every person. But on the other hand Calvin wants to preserve human accountability in making choices, so he asserts that God does not force his will of decree on anyone. How does God accomplish this? Calvin never tells us. Instead he appeals to unexplainable mystery seen in his cloaked phrase “wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men…” This is theological gobbledegook in its highest form.]


*** “The first man fell because the Lord deemed it meet that he should: why he deemed it meet, we know not… Man therefore falls, divine providence so ordaining but he falls by his own fault.”[6]


[As is obvious Calvin believed God did not just foresee the fall of man, he unconditionally decreed that man would fall. Again Calvin seeks to cover his theological rear from getting blindsided by appealing to an incomprehensible mystery (“we know not”) and then adding in the qualifier “but he falls by his own fault.” Herein lies Calvinism’s greatest conundrum concerning a compatibilist account of freedom. Compatibilist Calvinists say our choices are wholly determined and caused by our desires. Yet Adam and Eve did not have any sinful nature and thus no inherent desire to sin or rebel. So how and why did they choose to sin and rebel? Arminians do have an answer because we understand self-determination to be the ultimate and final explanation for choice and behavior—rather than compatibilist “free-will” which maintains that all “free” choices have their origin in God’s prior decree.]


*** “How it was ordained by the foreknowledge and decree of God what man’s future was without God being implicated as associate in the fault as the author or approver of transgression, is clearly a secret so much excelling the insight of the human mind, that I am not ashamed to confess ignorance…. I daily so meditate on these mysteries of his judgments that curiosity to know anything more does not attract me.”[7]


[Here again Calvin wants to insist that God is the causal determiner of every sinful transgression and yet absolve God of all responsibility and culpability in foreordaining those sins. How does God do this? Calvin has no idea and again appeals to inscrutable mystery. The obvious problem is Calvinism creates mysteries where none should exist. There is no mystery as to how we can be held responsible for all the sins God causally determines—because God has not causally determined all our sins. There is no mystery as to how God can be the willing determiner of all your sins and not be the author of them—because God has not determined your sins. Calvinism makes God out to be a moral monster equal to the devil himself and appeals to mystery in order to extricate God from looking like the devil! The mysteries of Calvinism are just that—mysteries that solely exist in their own theological construct and are alien to biblical truth.]


*** “I have already shown clearly enough that God is the author of all those things which, according to these objectors [non-Calvinists] happen only by his inactive permission… No, when we cannot comprehend how God can will that to be done which he forbids us to do, let us call to mind our imbecility…”[8]


[In defending his view of sovereignty against his objectors John Calvin concedes that logically it must mean God is the ultimate author of everything he ordains. Moreover he argues that simply saying that God gives “permission” is not sufficient. He later attempts to say that our minds are too finite and stupid (“imbecile”) to comprehend the mystery as to why God would ordain the very sins he forbids us to do.]


*** “What we must prove is that single events are ordered by God and that every event comes from his intended will. Nothing happens by chance.”[9]


[For Calvin and Calvinism in general “chance” is understood as being any choice of self-determination that lies outside what God has already unilaterally pre-chosen should occur. In other words God has chosen what each choice shall be and chance is defined as any event or choice that is free of God’s causal determinism of all choices before the world began. Whether it be the roll of the dice in monopoly, your decision on a menu, or whether or not to cheat on a test— in Calvinism the only thing God is “allowing” is his own choice to become realized.]


*** “But where it is a matter of men’s counsels, wills, endeavours, and exertions, there is greater difficulty in seeing how the providence of God rules here too, so that nothing happens but by His assent and that men can deliberately do nothing unless He inspire it.”[10]


[Here Calvin states that God inspires everything men do. Thus God inspires every child molestation, every lie, every act of adultery and every suicide. Accordingly God does not simply allow men to abuse their freedom to do evil—he in fact inspires the very evil men do.]


James White:


Calvinist theologian James White, in a debate with Hank Hannegraaf and George Bryson, was asked, “When a child is raped, is God responsible and did He decree that rape?” To which Mr. White replied:


*** “Yes, because if not then it’s meaningless and purposeless and though God knew it was going to happen he created it without a purpose… and God is responsible for the creation of despair… If He didn‟t [decree child rape] then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose.”[11]


[For a thorough refutation of White’s reasoning, click here.]


*** “Scripture…teaches God’s sovereignty (providence, decree, etc.) and man’s responsibility. We usually call this “biblical compatibilism,” which we might summarize by saying that human beings freely chose what God foreordains.[12]


[Secondary causation, otherwise known as compatibilism, still results in causal determinism that precludes human responsibility in White’s theology. For in Calvinistic compatibilism God doesn’t just passively allow us to pick which bondage of sins our fallen desires “freely” pull us towards—he determines which desires we will have and which specific sins we will choose! In the end Calvinism can make no sense as to why God still treats people as moral agents who are responsible for the very same evil actions he causally determined and inwardly initiated for them to do.]





Vincent Cheung:


*** “God controls everything that is and everything that happens. There is not one thing that happens that he has not actively decreed – not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed the existence of evil, he has not merely permitted it, as if anything can originate and happen apart from his will and power. Since we have shown that no creature can make completely independent decisions, evil could never have started without God’s active decree, and it cannot continue for one moment longer apart from God’s will. God decreed evil ultimately for his own glory, although it is not necessary to know or to state this reason to defend Christianity from the problem evil.”[13]


*** “Those who see that it is impossible to altogether disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil nevertheless try to distance God from evil by saying that God merely “permits” evil, and that he does not cause any of it. However, since Scripture itself states that God actively decrees everything, and that nothing can happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something – nothing happens by God’s mere permission.[14]


[In declaring that every thought of man, even man’s sinful thoughts, are actively decreed by God, and that nothing happens unless God actively determines it (and not just permits it), Vincent Cheung leaves no stone unturned as to the extent of God’s divine determination over all things. Moreover, like John Piper, Cheung holds to the absurd and despicable Calvinist idea that God has divinely determined all evil—for his own holy glory.]


John Piper:


*** “Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins? Yes… Now the reason I believe that is because the Bible says, “The dice are thrown in the lap, and every decision is from the Lord” (Proverbs 16:33).” [15]


[Here we find a rare moment of total honesty from John Piper about the true nature of his commitment to Calvinism. More often than not, Piper will use obscuring language to extol what he calls the “supremacy of God’s sovereignty.” Very rarely does he allow the “young, restless and reformed” crowd to be exposed to the dark and sinister implications of what it means for God to be “supreme” in Calvinism. Yet here he admits that to hold Calvinist beliefs is to also hold to a belief that “God predetermined… all of our besetting sins.” Do you struggle with lust, pride, gossip, porn, and lying? Take comfort in knowing God predetermined that you would. Such is the morally bankrupt “dead end” of Calvinism to those who wish to have it. Piper attempts to justify this vile belief through Proverbs 16:33 which speaks of God’s sovereignty extending even to the result of dice being thrown. However humans are not dice! We are free, moral agents! That being said, we need not think God is the cosmic, casino owner of Vegas ensuring that the odds are always in the house’s favor (which statistically they are.) We only need to believe the general principle that God’s power can extend into any arena, such as thrown dice. But that general principle need not commit us to the belief that God’s hand actually does manipulate every throw of dice in a poker game (much less a monopoly game.) Proverbs often speaks “universally” to make a general point or principle, but not a universal, absolute law. For example Prov. 10:3 states, “The Lord does not let the righteous go hungry” but many persecuted believers languishing in prisons will tell you of great hunger. Prov. 14:23 says, “Hard work brings forth a profit” but many people can attest that too is not a universal law. Prov. 22:6 says, “Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it” but many heartbroken parents can tell you otherwise. That Piper would look to Proverbs (which tells us how to avoid sin!) in order to anchor his belief that “God determined all our besetting sins” is abhorrent. He should know better.]


*** “So when I say that everything that exists — including evil — is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly, I mean that, one way or the other, God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son… By ordain I mean God either caused something directly or permitted it for wise purposes.”[16]


[In this quote, Piper attempts to argue that God ordained all evil for a purpose. What is that purpose? According to Piper it is so that God can achieve a greater radiance of glory. The view suffers in that it implies that God was not fully glorified before sin and now needs sin to make his glory “shine more brightly.” All Christians ought to distance themselves from such a view because it presents a God who has a need—sin and evil—to achieve something righteous—glory. Notice also that Piper attempts to do damage control by shrouding his true beliefs behind the innocuous phrase “God sees to it that all things serve to glorify his Son.” What Piper really means is “God eternally conceived, designed, predetermined every evil for the good purpose of glorifying his Son.” We are left wondering if perhaps Piper does not want to be this blunt and honest with his readers because he is afraid many will not have the “stomach” to handle such brutal truths. Unfortunately Piper is very reticent to be theologically honest and forthcoming in his popular sermons—especially with young people who are considering Calvinism. He will often borrow an Arminian framework of God not “preventing” evil and “permitting sin” to explain how God foreordains every event of evil without being the author of such evils. But given that our first quote of Piper already puts him on the record in conceding “Yes” to the question, “Has God predetermined all our besetting sins”– it means any utilization of the language of “permission” is wholly inappropriate. Does Piper think God needs to get permission from Himself? In cannot be stressed enough that when Piper uses the language of “permission” or “allow” to morally shelter God from his own theology determinism, he is not only being wholly inconsistent with his own theology, he is also being dishonest (misleading) with his laymen listeners and readers. This charge I do not make lightly. Yet I am convinced Piper knows that he cannot always unfurl the true, unpalatable implications of his views to his readership. Despite conceding (in other writings) that God has “predetermined all our besetting sins” Piper is savvy to know people will reject Calvinism wholesale if he is that honest all the time. So he misleadingly states that God’s ordination of all evil can include the idea of God “permitting it for wise purposes.” This is both a theological and philosophical “whopper” and Piper knows it! Since Piper affirms the Westminster Confession that says God does ordain/decree things because He foresees them as free acts, and since human beings were not yet born when God designed and predetermined all our sins, Piper knows it is wholly misleading to talk about God “permitting” or “allowing” people to commit the very evils he designed and predetermined for them to commit! Bad theology is always garbed in cloaked language.


*** “God is able without blameworthy ‘tempting’ to see to it that a person does what God ordains for him to do even if it involves evil.”[17]


[Piper has yet to be able to articulate a philosophically sound and coherent account of how our Holy God decrees the desires, motives and intentions of every man’s evil choices; renders it certain that they carry out those specifically decreed evils—yet all the while escapes the charge that he “tempts men” to do evil. Piper’s position is essentially that God does not actually tempt men to sin because that would make him morally culpable for sin. Instead Piper theorizes God only designs and decrees all of our sin; sovereignly inclines all of our wills to commit that decreed sin—yet somehow remains morally un-culpable because he doesn’t tempt us to sin. What? This position would almost be worthy of humor given its irrationality if it wasn’t so tragic that Piper has managed to convince multitudes of others to think the same absurdity.]


J.I. Packer:


*** “God… orders and controls all things, human actions among them…He [also] holds every man responsible for the choices he makes and the courses of action he pursues… Man is a responsible moral agent, though he is also divinely controlled; man is divinely controlled, though he is also a responsible moral agent. To our finite minds, of course, the thing is inexplicable.”[18]


[Notice again how Calvinists are quick to find refuge in “unexplainable mystery” whenever they are pressed on explaining the logic of their convictions. If one drops the premise that all human desire and choice is rooted in God’s irresistible eternal decree then the mystery of how humans can be responsible for their actions disappears.]


R.C. Sproul Jr.:


*** “God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”[19]


[This Calvinist theologian unashamedly takes Calvinism to its logical conclusion. That other Calvinists hold to the same view but don’t speak so openly and plainly to their masses is a cause for concern.]


Edwin Palmer:


*** “All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist even sinAlthough sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass).[20]


[To concede, as Palmer does, that God unilaterally and unconditionally ordained “every evil thought” undermines the typical Calvinist defense (via Edwards and Piper) that human choice can be determined by God and yet humans can still be held morally responsible for the choices they make because freedom of the will is simply thinking upon and doing what we think and desire to do– and left to ourselves we will always desire evil. But if our evil thoughts and desires are themselves determined by God, as Palmer admits, the Calvinist argument is rendered meaningless. The mere fact that so many intelligent and sincere followers of God believe God unilaterally and unconditionally ordained “every evil thought” and “decides and causes…even [their] sin” is truly troubling and worrisome in that the view offers no sound reason as to why–in the end– God’s grace is not a license to sin. One can only speculate as to how many lives have been shipwrecked on the rocks of this extreme view of God’s sovereignty that provides every person a valid reason to absolve themselves of all guilt—for who can resist an irresistible decree of God to sin?]


W.G.T. Shedd:


*** “Sin is one of the ‘whatsoevers’ that have ‘come to pass’, all of which are ‘ordained’…Nothing comes to pass contrary to His decree. Nothing happens by chance. Even moral evil, which He abhors and forbids, occurs by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God… man’s inability to explain how God can make things certain, but not compulsory… is no reason to deny that [God] can do it or that he has done it.”[21]


[Here we are told that God foreordains the very evils he hates and abhors. Again the theology of Calvinism makes God indistinguishable from the activity of the devil! In fact Calvinism must logically affirm that every demon is meticulously controlled by God insofar as he has decreed every one of their acts of temptation and evil.]


*** “God by his providence permitted some of the angels willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation…ordering that, and all their sins, to his glory.” [22]


[Notice how Shedd, like Piper and Edwards, adopts a philosophy of absurd incoherence in attempting to use the language of “permission” to explain the fall and activity of demons, while simultaneously asserting a reality of divine determinism to explain the fall and activity of demons. If a teacher arranges an exam whereby she renders certain that all her students fail, it is meaningless to then assert she “permitted” them to fail. And again we find another Calvinist telling us that God determines all sin “to his glory.” Webb should have said “to his shame.” Only a Calvinist possesses the strange ingenuity to attribute sin to God’s glory and in so doing divest glory of all that qualifies it as such.



Gordan H. Clark:


*** “I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin.[24]


[Unlike many of his Calvinist brethren who opted to shield themselves behind “mystery” as to how God can be the pre-determiner of sin without being the ultimate cause or author of sin, Clarke was not ashamed or too timid to admit the logical conclusion of Calvinist dogma—that being that God is the determinative cause of sin. He makes no attempt to lessen or soften Calvinism’s extreme view of God’s sovereignty to make it more palatable or agreeable but readily admits that God’s sovereignty, as logically seen through the lens of Calvinism, results in a God who determines, orders and causes the evil acts of all people. Why? Because “He alone is sovereign.” It is Calvinism egregious view of God’s sovereignty that is its foremost error and gives us little reason not to toss it in the rubbish heap of theology gone to seed. Some Calvinists accused Clark of being a “hyper-Calvinist” because of his boldness of speech in unfurling the full banner of Calvinistic logic for all to see. Clark denied he was a “hyper” anything and simply opted to view himself as a logically consistent Calvinist. To date no “soft-pedaling” Calvinist has been able to respond to Clark’s arguments without appealing to inconceivable mystery as a refuge.]



A.W. Pink:


*** “Plainly it was God’s will that sin should enter this world, otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens except what God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a simple permission, for God only permits things that fulfill his purpose.”[25]


[Here Pink, the well-known Calvinist theologian, insists that sin entered this world as a result of what “God has eternally decreed” and that permitting is more or less a formality of means to bring into reality what he purposed unconditionally. When a Calvinists says, “God permitted the sin of X to occur” he is really saying, “God fulfilled the decree of X to occur.”]


John Frame:


*** “The Reformed [Calvinists] agree that God knows what would happen under all conditions, but they reject the notion that this knowledge is ever ultimately based on man’s autonomous decisions. Human decisions, they argue, are themselves the effects of God’s eternal decrees.[26]


[Here Frame admits that God’s knowledge of every human decision (i.e. sin) is ultimately not a result of knowing what humans autonomously choose. In Calvinism there is no “autonomy” of the will. We are more like the glove that fits on a hand. The glove moves but ultimately only in response to the movement of the hand. Our wills are thus God’s instruments to affect his decrees. In this sense Frame would have us understand that God knows all human decisions because he has decreed each decision. Our illusion of free will is merely a trick of the mind because we are constrained to time. The fact is, according to Frame, every choice we make is merely the effects in time of what God eternally decreed.]


Mark Talbot and John Piper:


*** “God brings about all things in accordance with his will. It isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those that love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects… This includes God’s having even brought about the Nazi’s brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child.” [27]


The above quote, which was edited and approved by John Piper for inclusion in his book “Suffering and the Sovereignty of God”, is so morally repugnant, evil and contrary to the majesty and glory of God, the mere fact that any Christian leader could affirm it only goes to show how deeply entrenched Calvinism is in demonic deception. 1500 years ago at the Council of Orange, the Church had little tolerance for such blasphemous departures from the nature of God’s goodness and holiness, saying, “We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.” (Council of Orange 529AD)


Conclusion: Calvinism makes much of the will of man being in bondage to sin, but it turns out this is only a formality in man’s experience–it is ultimately irrelevant. In Calvinism, man’s will is in bondage to God’s decretive will. Moreover this bondage is throughout one’s life! A Calvinist would be mistaken to think regenerated, saved persons somehow escape the “bondage of the will” they formerly incurred while in sin. That would be a conclusion that does not give Calvinism its full due. In order for a Calvinist to extoll God as sovereign it must be conceded that every sin, even sins made by Christians who are in Christ, is a sin that God decreed for them to make. Becoming saved changes this not one bit. There is ultimately no true freedom of the will to be gained in being a new creature in Christ—your sins are still determined just like they were before!


The result of such an extreme view of sovereignty is quite frightfully appalling. God tells us to put to death the deeds of our flesh and to walk in holiness, yet every time we give in to the flesh God’s meticulous predeterminism ultimately lies behind it all—such that we could not have chosen against God’s decree. Far from being removed from sin, Calvinism results in God being the conceptual designer, author and determinative cause of all sin! https://atheologyintension.com/2013/03/21/2376/#_ftn2


At its core historical, scholarly Arminianism has principally been motivated by an unceasing passion to protect and defend the holy and righteous character of God from the horrific implications of Calvinist theology.

[1] John Calvin, Inst. I.xvi.8. 1539 edition. Quoted in A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[2] John Calvin, Inst. I.xviii.l. 1559 edition. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[3] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God (tr. J. K. S. Reid) (London, 1961)175f. (OC 8.358) See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[4] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God 177 (OC 8.360) (‘summam et praecipuam rerum omnium causam’). Cf. Inst. I.xviii.2 (1559). See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[5] John Calvin, Commentary on Is. 10:15. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[6] John Calvin, Inst. III.xxiii.8. See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73

[7] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, 124 (OC 8.316). See A.N.S. Lane, “Did Calvin Believe in Freewill?” Vox Evangelica 12 (1981): 73)

[8] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 2008), 1.18.1 and 3:136, 138-39

[9] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book I, Ch. 16, Sect. 4

[10] John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, pp.171-172

[11] James White, http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-it-is-important-to-go-back-to.html

[12] James White, www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4324

[13] Vincent Cheung, “Problem of Evil,” http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/ProblemEvil.htm (March, 2013)

[14] Vincent Cheung, “Problem of Evil,” http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/ProblemEvil.htm (March, 2013)

[15] John Piper, https://www.desiringgod.org/intervi...ery-tiny-detail-in-the-universe-including-sin

[16] John Piper, Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), 54. See also John Piper’s sermon “Is God less Glorious Because He Ordained that Evil Be?” http://www.desiringgod.org/resource...ess-glorious-because-he-ordained-that-evil-be (June, 2012). In that sermon Piper quotes Jonathan Edward’s answer to the question as to how God can be the ultimate cause and determiner of sin and yet not be its author. Notice how Edwards relies on the Arminian language of “permission” to extricate himself from the dilemma:

“If by ‘the author of sin,’ be meant the sinner, the agent, or the actor of sin, or the doer of a wicked thing… It would be a reproach and blasphemy, to suppose God to be the author of sin. In this sense, I utterly deny God to be the author of sin.” But, he argues, willing that sin exist in the world is not the same as sinning. God does not commit sin in willing that there be sin. God has established a world in which sin will indeed necessarily come to pass by God’s permission, but not by his “positive agency.”

Piper than goes on to quote Edwards further saying, “God is, Edwards says, the “permitter… of sin; and at the same time, a disposer of the states of events, in such a manner, for wise, holy and most excellent ends and purposes, that sin, if it be permitted… will most certainly and infallibly follow.” As is obvious Piper is being wholly inconsistent with the logic of his own position. In Calvinism all men sin necessarily in virtue of God irrevocably decreeing that they sin irresistibly. For in Calvinism it is impossible for men to choose against God’s decree. It is pointless to say God permits what he necessitates through an irresistible decree. Piper is intentionally obscuring the true horror of Calvinism by softening his language and borrowing Arminian terms to escape the logical implications of his own theology. As one writer insightfully points out, “Such a view of permission as Edwards and Piper describe would be like saying that someone who controlled the mind and actions of another to sin in such a way that the person being controlled had no power to avoid sinning ‘permitted the sin’ because he ‘allowed’ the person to think and act just as he was irresistibly controlling the person to think and act.” Obviously this is hardly how anyone would understand ‘permission’ yet this fact does not give Calvinists like Piper pause. He intentionally obscures meaning. To say that God “permits” sin to come about through his infallible, determinative decree is to simply say God established a world whereby sin happens of necessity–via eternal decrees. In the Edwards/Piper/Calvinist scheme, man is powerless to control his own choices because they are powerless to choose or act contrary to their “strongest motive.” But in Calvinism, not even their interior affections, desires or motives are untouched by God’s decrees, for God has determined those too! All these things are secured by God’s determinative decrees before the world began. Adam’s sin, mankind’s consequent fallen nature, and every subsequent thought, motive, desire, and act are rendered necessary (not only certain) because God’s eternal decrees cannot fail. A person can no more resist or act contrary to the eternal divine decree than they can create their own universe! How then can we speak of God merely “permitting” these “necessitated” sinful acts?” See Ben Henshaw’s devastating critique of Piper’s sermon and reliance on Edwards ill-conceived theology at: http://arminianperspectives.wordpre...n-arminian-response-to-pipers-first-question/ (June, 2012).

[17] John Piper, Spectacular Sins: And Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008), 24

[18] J.I. Packer, Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God (Chicago: InterVarsity Press, 1961), 19-23.

[19] R.C. jr Sproul, Almighty Over All (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1999), 54

[20] Edwin Palmer,The Five Points of Calvinism, 24-25

[21] W.G.T. Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 32-33, 38-39 http://www.archive.org/stream/calvinismpuremix00shed#page/32/mode/2up

[22] W.G.T. Shedd, Calvinism: Pure and Mixed, 32-33 http://www.archive.org/stream/calvinismpuremix00shed#page/34/mode/2up

[23] Gordon Clark, Religion, Reason, and Revelation, (Philadelphia, PA: Presbyterian & Reformed), 1961, 221

[24] Gordon Clark, Predestination. (The Trinity Foundation), 1987. 18

[25] A.W Pink, The Sovereignty of God, 2009, 162

[26] John Frame,“Scientia Media,” Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 2nd ed., ed. Walter A. Elwell. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2001), 1075.

[27] Mark Talbot, edited by John Piper and Justin Taylor, Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, (Wheaton, Ill: Crossway Books, 2006) 41-42
@civic
I'm only attempting to keep it sincere, referring to this argument you are making, for is it not strange that a Trinitarian would use this argument. One who believes that three persons are not three Gods, but one God, yet does not know how this can be, for he says, God is far greater than man, man is a imbecile, man is not given this understanding - it's a mystery!
An argument that is also used against Oneness; It's not logical! Even though the Trinity is not logical we must except it, because it is a mystery, but nothing else should we apply this to?

civic writes..
"How does God accomplish this? Calvin never tells us. Instead he appeals to unexplainable mystery seen in his cloaked phrase “wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men…” This is theological gobbledegook in its highest form.]"

..and..

"Again Calvin seeks to cover his theological rear from getting blindsided by appealing to an incomprehensible mystery (“we know not”) and then adding in the qualifier “but he falls by his own fault.” Herein lies Calvinism’s greatest conundrum concerning a compatibilist account of freedom. Compatibilist Calvinists say our choices are wholly determined and caused by our desires."

..and..

"[Here again Calvin wants to insist that God is the causal determiner of every sinful transgression and yet absolve God of all responsibility and culpability in foreordaining those sins. How does God do this? Calvin has no idea and again appeals to inscrutable mystery."

..and..

"Calvinism makes God out to be a moral monster equal to the devil himself and appeals to mystery in order to extricate God from looking like the devil! The mysteries of Calvinism are just that—mysteries that solely exist in their own theological construct and are alien to biblical truth.]"

..and..

"He later attempts to say that our minds are too finite and stupid (“imbecile”) to comprehend the mystery as to why God would ordain the very sins he forbids us to do.]"


Did you not just talk yourself out of the defense of the Trinity?
 
One who believes that three persons are not three Gods, but one God, yet does not know how this can be, for he says, God is far greater than man, man is a imbecile, man is not given this understanding - it's a mystery!
The concept for the Trinity in my opinion IS comprehensible. Calvinism doctrines are not and I always add when it pertains to T.U.L.I.P You have three and one realities in the world all about us. H2O is one....but is three.....liquid, vapor or ice. Government is ONE....but it can be three....Federal, State and Municipal. Doctrines of Calvinism though are absolute contradictions to the rational mind. You can't have something that is blue and at the same time say it red. You can't say God ordains EVERYTHING and then add that man's will is not being forced.
"Calvinism makes God out to be a moral monster equal to the devil himself and appeals to mystery in order to extricate God from looking like the devil! The mysteries of Calvinism are just that—mysteries that solely exist in their own theological construct and are alien to biblical truth.]"
Which is true what Civic there was saying.
Did you not just talk yourself out of the defense of the Trinity?
No he most certainly did not. Three and ONE realities are comprehensible. I've shown you how.
 
@civic
I'm only attempting to keep it sincere, referring to this argument you are making, for is it not strange that a Trinitarian would use this argument. One who believes that three persons are not three Gods, but one God, yet does not know how this can be, for he says, God is far greater than man, man is a imbecile, man is not given this understanding - it's a mystery!
An argument that is also used against Oneness; It's not logical! Even though the Trinity is not logical we must except it, because it is a mystery, but nothing else should we apply this to?

civic writes..
"How does God accomplish this? Calvin never tells us. Instead he appeals to unexplainable mystery seen in his cloaked phrase “wonderful and inconceivable manner he regulates all the movements of men…” This is theological gobbledegook in its highest form.]"

..and..

"Again Calvin seeks to cover his theological rear from getting blindsided by appealing to an incomprehensible mystery (“we know not”) and then adding in the qualifier “but he falls by his own fault.” Herein lies Calvinism’s greatest conundrum concerning a compatibilist account of freedom. Compatibilist Calvinists say our choices are wholly determined and caused by our desires."

..and..

"[Here again Calvin wants to insist that God is the causal determiner of every sinful transgression and yet absolve God of all responsibility and culpability in foreordaining those sins. How does God do this? Calvin has no idea and again appeals to inscrutable mystery."

..and..

"Calvinism makes God out to be a moral monster equal to the devil himself and appeals to mystery in order to extricate God from looking like the devil! The mysteries of Calvinism are just that—mysteries that solely exist in their own theological construct and are alien to biblical truth.]"

..and..

"He later attempts to say that our minds are too finite and stupid (“imbecile”) to comprehend the mystery as to why God would ordain the very sins he forbids us to do.]"


Did you not just talk yourself out of the defense of the Trinity?
No I do not plea to mystery with the Trinity, you have the wrong trinitarian. :)
 
The concept for the Trinity in my opinion IS comprehensible. Calvinism doctrines are not and I always add when it pertains to T.U.L.I.P You have three and one realities in the world all about us. H2O is one....but is three.....liquid, vapor or ice. Government is ONE....but it can be three....Federal, State and Municipal. Doctrines of Calvinism though are absolute contradictions to the rational mind. You can't have something that is blue and at the same time say it red. You can't say God ordains EVERYTHING and then add that man's will is not being forced.

Which is true what Civic there was saying.

No he most certainly did not. Three and ONE realities are comprehensible. I've shown you how.
Amen
 
We are not talking about sin.
What do you mean we're not talking about sin! How dare you suggest that the most insidious type of sins that were brought up is somehow not sin. I told you why God has allowed such evil to exist and my answer is a million times better then what a Calvinist would have to say. You go to the unbelievable place of saying God wanted it and ordained it that is the rape of children or let's just say other impure things that can happen to them. Sorry but people of the word of God KNOW that in no way is true.

We are talking about why your God does not stop innocent children from being raped or murdered.
I told you, I told you, I told you. I said he's allowed evil for a period of time to demonstrate the type of fruit that independence from him produces. I said MORE as well in post #61 that readers can see. Your position is and I think it's clear you're ashamed of it or you wouldn't be seeking to spin this around trying to put me on the defensive. YOUR POSITION is that God ordains it and wants it. So say YES or NO. Do you believe that or not. If you're going to claim to be a Calvinist then you've got to own wherever that might take you. It seems you want to take readers mind off just what you truly are believing.


 
The concept for the Trinity in my opinion IS comprehensible. Calvinism doctrines are not and I always add when it pertains to T.U.L.I.P You have three and one realities in the world all about us. H2O is one....but is three.....liquid, vapor or ice. Government is ONE....but it can be three....Federal, State and Municipal. Doctrines of Calvinism though are absolute contradictions to the rational mind. You can't have something that is blue and at the same time say it red. You can't say God ordains EVERYTHING and then add that man's will is not being forced.

Which is true what Civic there was saying.

No he most certainly did not. Three and ONE realities are comprehensible. I've shown you how.
Please, I was not born yesterday, I am a senior, I know these debates, and Trinitarians even admit this them selves. That is why they say, "it's a mystery!" They also admit H2O is not the best example, it does not really work out, because they all cannot be at the same time. They admit they have no good example in creation. So, all I am hearing here, is manipulation and insincerity.

Three persons judging, whether they all be in one body, or not, whether they all agree, or not, are still three Judges judging.

Three persons that are God, are three Gods! Everyone knows, if there are three persons that are a teacher, there are three teachers. If the Father is God all on His own, that is one God. If the Son of God is God all on His own, that is two Gods. If the Holy Spirit is God all on His own, that is three Gods.
 
I've never meet a trinitarian that does not eventually ending up there,
because it is against logic!
How are three persons not three Gods then?

Start with thinking about a perfect Son just like you......... It is essential that the teaching of the Trinity start with the Unity of the Father and Son.

Not hard to believe at all.... if you rightfully recognize Jesus Christ for WHO He is.
 
Get use to cut n paste responses without making one’s own argument.
Nice Try Civic, But you haven't even seen cut and paste till you see what I can do. I'm the king of cut and paste. Just take a look at this one.

The Calvinist view is called monergism—from two Greek words that mean “one” and “energy” or “action.” Monergism is the belief that salvation is all God’s doing from beginning to end without any cooperation from the person being saved other than what God instills in that person. The alternative is “synergism”—the belief that salvation is all of grace but requires free cooperation for it to be activated in a person’s life.

Roger E. Olson, Against Calvinism

That's what I call copy and paste. But seriously I think There are a lot of things wrong with Calvinism. The Reformation changed a lot of things in Christianity. And the bad news is that Calvinism has dominated much of evangelical thought. It has been so well established that many Christians simply assume it to be the truest expression of Christian doctrine. They never give it any thought of how damaging it really is and what a affront to God it really is

But The truth is Calvinism has some serious biblical and theological weaknesses as I'm sure you're well aware of.
 
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