atpollard
Well-known member
Jesus forgave sins by His own authority … that requires GOD.
(Hence the Pharisees freaking out when He did it … they knew their OT and knew what that meant.)
󠅤 The Lord sent Jesus Christ
- Thread starter Runningman
- Start date
(Hence the Pharisees freaking out when He did it … they knew their OT and knew what that meant.)
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Jesus affirmed that his authority and powers were given.
In the same way Jesus was sent, the apostles were sent. Just as Jesus, the apostles also received the authority to forgive sins.
If Jesus had intrinsic power to forgive sins, why would he take the role of Mediator between man and God? Why would it be necessary to intercede at all? Why did He need to ask God to forgive the Roman soldiers who cast lots over his garments at the cross? Jesus could have forgiven them directly, couldn’t He?
Why would Jesus need to teach us to ask The Father for forgiveness ?
Yes....Pancho, I did not give the scriptures to holy men of God to write, the Spirit of God did, and that is His testimony to us, so I must receive it.
Really? Then pray to tell me, what other sense can any person with the fear of God, understand 1st Timothy 3:16?
1st Timothy 3:16............
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”And John 1:1,14
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God................And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
It was John the Baptist that said:
John 1:15,30
“John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me............. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.”In what sense was he before John? In His deity as the Word that was God in the beginning!
Again: How is this true?
John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”Jesus was both on earth and in Heaven at the same time! On earth in his humanity, in heaven as God blessed forever!
Romans 9:5
“Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.”And all of God's children said Amen, and amen.
No, never said one did.
Okay, if you stop there, I would agree with you. But you do not......
Pancho, Jesus was the express image of the invisible God, because he was the only begotten Son of God, thereby, making him equal to God. When the angels saw Jesus in the flesh, they for the first time saw God!
1st Timothy 6:14-16
“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
DougMartin
New member
There is only one God, and this one God exists as one essence in three Persons.
The three Persons are:
God the Father
God the Son, Jesus
God the Holy Spirit
If you are saved you have all three. Here are a few bible verses that show them working together.
Matthew 3:16, 17 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
2 Corinthians 13:14, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”
Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
Titus 3:4-6 “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour . . .”
The three Persons are:
God the Father
God the Son, Jesus
God the Holy Spirit
If you are saved you have all three. Here are a few bible verses that show them working together.
Matthew 3:16, 17 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”
2 Corinthians 13:14, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.”
Ephesians 4:4-6 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”
Titus 3:4-6 “But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour . . .”
Runningman
Well-known member
Here's a question. Does the Athanasian Creed say there is not three Spirits, but one Spirit. Yet according to Scripture, the Father is God and is a Spirit. The Holy Spirit would then be a seperate Spirit. Spirit isn't like an apple, for example. One can sent an apple from one location to another while also keeping the apple in its original location. Spirit is a completely difference concept. The Father is the Holy Spirit.
Here's another example. According to Mathew 11:27, no one knows the Father or Son except each other and those who they choose to reveal. If the Holy Spirit is not the Father, then the Holy Spirit isn't someone who inherently knows God. Under the Trinitarian framework, this verse would be nonsense. However, since the Father is the Holy Spirit, it makes perfect sense why the Holy Spirit doesn't receive any mention.
Matt 11 (ESV)
27All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Runningman
Well-known member
Because "seeing" the Father is knowing the Father and understanding Him. One of Jesus' primary missions was to reveal or explain who God is.
John 1
18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 17
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Runningman
Well-known member
So can we agree that God is not a man and that a man is not God? Could it be that Jesus was a man whom God was with?
Acts 10
37That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Runningman
Well-known member
There are a lot more working than just God and Jesus. So under this idea it would seem that others are God too. I have said it before, but ideas can be taken too far. I strongly believe that deifying Jesus to the same level of God is too far.
1 Cor. 3
6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Runningman
Well-known member
I don't reject Christ. I think you got the wrong idea about something I said.
Only half of that is true, God was not Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ was 100% God in his deity as the I AM THAT I AM.
I have other duties today, but will address this again more in depth.
Runningman
Well-known member
Please do! and thank you for always being very friendly! God bless.
101G
Well-known member
Replying to the O.P.
the Lord is JESUS, who is God in the ECHAD of LORD/First and Lord/Last.
101G.
Greetings Runningman,
I believe in the incarnate Sonship of Jesus Christ, we do not believe and neither do we teach in the RCC doctrine that espouses the Trinity of the eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ as promoted by the Nicene creed.
So much heresies in this short confession of faith. We do not beleive and neither do we teach in the the beginning was The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe in the beginning was God, period, without qualifications. God is a Spirit that inhabits eternity, eternal both ways.
Isaiah 57:15
“For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.”Please be patience and let me give you my understanding of the Godhead, it will take a few posts.
I reject the eternal sonship of Jesus Christ, being begotten before all worlds.
Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.
The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.
Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.
And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.
Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.
The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?
I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:
When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?
We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.
Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.
Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.
Just getting started.
civic
Well-known member
Yes and declared life was found in Him and one must follow Him to be saved. No man can or did ever make any such claims in the bible. They turn a blind eye to those claims of Jesus and His exclusive demand to follow and obey Him for salvation/eternal life. And no one can die and pay the price for another mans sins period.
Psalm 49:7- No man can possibly redeem his brother or pay his ransom to God.
A prerogative of God alone, not man. @Pancho Frijoles
The Apostles and Prophets saved no man- Jesus did because He is God.
hope this helps !!!
Reason #2~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.
The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.
We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!
The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.
The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I AM THAT I AM, and the Son of God and the Son of man.
I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".
Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.
Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"
Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, only according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.
Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"
It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!
The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.
When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.
When reading such scriptures as 1st Peter 1:11; 1st Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1st Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.
Later.....
The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.
We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!
The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.
The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I AM THAT I AM, and the Son of God and the Son of man.
I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".
Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.
Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"
Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, only according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.
Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
Question #4~ "Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"
It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!
The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.
When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.
When reading such scriptures as 1st Peter 1:11; 1st Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1st Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.
Later.....
101G
Well-known member
not trying to get into your conversation, but "Son" here is not biological in nature. Son here It is often used metaphorically of prominent moral characteristic, or character. the Son here, in reference to the Lord Jesus is neither begotten, naturally, nor has a biological ..... as you say, generation~generation. that body that was concieved in Mary was of the Holy Ghost, (Spirit), outside the NATURAL course of conception.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
so, do you agree with 1 Timothy 6:14 - 16, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 1 Timothy 6:15 "Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."
Jesus is the ONLY ONE that has Immortality... meaning ETERNAL LIFE. do you agree?
101G
civic
Well-known member
your interpretation is wrong. its the Father who is invisible that no man has seen, not the Son
next fallacy
101G
Well-known member
read the text, there is no private interpretation. last time do you believe the text, yes or no?
101G.
civic
Well-known member
Its time you submit to the Bible and its truth instead of your modalism/oneness heresy.
1-Who's voice did the OT prophets hear that is called YHWH ?
2-Who did the OT prophets/saints see in the OT who was called YHWH ?
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
Colossians 1:15
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, and invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen
1 Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen
Jesus said the following about God the Father !
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
hope this helps !!!
