󠅤 The Lord sent Jesus Christ

But before John 14:7-11, Jesus said that he has sheep already who know him. Yet in John 14:7-11 he said "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

In John 10:14,15, Jesus said he already has sheep and that his sheep know him. Knowing Jesus and seeing Jesus can't be the same as knowing God since it was not until later that the apostles had seen the Father. What Jesus was talking about is their finally understanding who the Father is. Sometimes "seeing" in the Bible means understanding just like being "blind" means not understanding.
It is too bad you do not read scriptures well except perhaps enough to distort them. The problem addressed in John 14:7-11 is that they could have known the Father anytime they were with Jesus. The problem was that they did not understand Jesus and therefore did not know Jesus (so as to know the Father). These are words as the cross is becoming an oncoming reality so he has to clarify to them that they had been seeing the Father in Christ but had no recognized it. They had the encounter with the Father all along but had no way to bring their thoughts into cohesion of what they had seen -- thus we have also John 1 giving that perception retrospectively to John 14 and the death and resurrection.

John 10:14-15 does not have to be a high level of knowledge like in John 14, only the familiarity to follow. So your argument fails. That is why it is not good that you are assuming Jesus to have been a mere human. Your exegetical skills are not sufficient to discern scriptures sufficiently.
 
Well, for starters you are still begging the question.
This the truth is, I just have started to post in this thread, and have address each post as they came to me, and will do so.
In other words, you are raising a point that has not been dealt with.
Okay, then deal with what I have posted, whatever I will post will pertain to this thread. I do not hijack other's threads.
The point that has not been deal with is that the Trinity is not explained or described in the Bible............................So from this point alone there is no such thing about God being three persons.
God is indeed One Lord God, the I AM THAT I AM, the beginning and end of all things, and all things in-between! This Almighty God has revealed Himself as three, "only" according to His work in the redemption of his elect, yet only one God ~ and that True God and eternal life, is JESUS CHRIST, the only God angels and men will ever see, for there is not another! This God is a Spirit, that inhabited eternity, yet has revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. His only begotten Son. Without controvery this is a great mystery, yet we speak where the word of God speak.
I hope we are on the same page that Christianity is about what the Bible says.
I 'am, but you are not, because what you said here:
In the version you quoted, this is unfortunately a failed prophecy because it says "he will be called" those things. Was Jesus every called any of those things in the Bible? Is the Son the Father? I would also add that there are numerous ways to translate this passage. I'll show you two alternatives below.

Isaiah 9 (LXX - Brenton's Septuagint Translation)
6For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) - Chapter 9 (CJB)
5For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
"In the version you quoted, this is unfortunately a failed prophecy because it says "he will be called" those things. Was Jesus every called any of those things in the Bible?"

Oh yes, if one takes the word of God at face value according to what it is said. Is Jesus indeed the everlasting Father of all things?

Colossians 1:16,17​

“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Can it be said any plainer? No!

1st John 1:1​


“That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)"

Jesus in his deity as God, being one (in His Divine eternal nature) with Him from the beginning fulfilled such scriptures as Isaiah 9:6, etc. Many more can and will be provided as we go.

Men like you look for any versions that are bold enough to corrupt Jesus not being God manifest in flesh, yet still profess to be Christian. There's a day coming when folks will see with their eyes as John and others did, and then they will wish they could go back and presented Christ as who he truly is ~ the Mighty God, who Matthew called Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23​

“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

All of God's children said....Amen, Amen
Never read anything like that in any Bible.
I' am sure you ahve not, you loss.
 
So it's possible Jesus didn't literally pre-exist and that God is able to interact in past, present, and future and is able to intimately know people in His foreknowledge without them actually having been born yet?
The key point: "God is not Time, but this illustrates that there can exist TRINITY in UNITY."
 
So God is not three then either. If we can't use numbers for God then why try with the number one?

Up it to two.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

5:4.“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God.”

Y'all like to avoid Him dont you.... uhhsmiley.gif

Let that sink in before being reminded for the umpteenth time ... John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”

They had been with Jesus all that time until suddenly at that moment they had seen the Father despite having already been looking at Jesus. You do realize Jesus is not referring to literally look in order to "see" the Father right?

When Jesus said "Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." in Matthew 5:8, he wasn't referring to looking at himself to see God. People with unpure hearts were already looking at Jesus at yet they were not seeing God.
 
It is too bad you do not read scriptures well except perhaps enough to distort them. The problem addressed in John 14:7-11 is that they could have known the Father anytime they were with Jesus. The problem was that they did not understand Jesus and therefore did not know Jesus (so as to know the Father). These are words as the cross is becoming an oncoming reality so he has to clarify to them that they had been seeing the Father in Christ but had no recognized it. They had the encounter with the Father all along but had no way to bring their thoughts into cohesion of what they had seen -- thus we have also John 1 giving that perception retrospectively to John 14 and the death and resurrection.

John 10:14-15 does not have to be a high level of knowledge like in John 14, only the familiarity to follow. So your argument fails. That is why it is not good that you are assuming Jesus to have been a mere human. Your exegetical skills are not sufficient to discern scriptures sufficiently.
Yet we still have people knowing Jesus without knowing the Father until later. Deal with the Scripture. Rather than just point the finger at me, open your open and explain how it's possible to know Jesus without knowing the Father if they are both God.
 
Yet we still have people knowing Jesus without knowing the Father until later. Deal with the Scripture. Rather than just point the finger at me, open your open and explain how it's possible to know Jesus without knowing the Father if they are both God.
Just like some today who miss seeing the divinity of Jesus within the Godhead, so did the disciples miss seeing it. All they recognized was Jesus' humanness. Such a point should be obvious since Jesus had not changed at that moment. However, that blindness was coming to an end and we can pray that your blindness come to an end.
 
Just like some today who miss seeing the divinity of Jesus within the Godhead, so did the disciples miss seeing it. All they recognized was Jesus' humanness. Such a point should be obvious since Jesus had not changed at that moment. However, that blindness was coming to an end and we can pray that your blindness come to an end.
Knowing Jesus isn't the same thing as knowing the Father. Too many differences. For starters, Jesus is a human with a human nature. He was tempted in every way as we are, was fallible, mortal, had to learn, grow, develop, etc. This doesn't describe God at all. That's how it's possible to know Jesus without knowing God.
 
Up it to two.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

5:4.“While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart?
You have not lied to men but to God.”

Y'all like to avoid Him dont you.... View attachment 1296

Let that sink in before being reminded for the umpteenth time ... John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”
According to Matthew, blaspheming Jesus is forgivable, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not forgivable, with no mention of the Father. So blaspheming the Father is kosher? Did you know the Father is the Holy Spirit and Jesus isn't?

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
 
The key point: "God is not Time, but this illustrates that there can exist TRINITY in UNITY."
and it also illustrates that the Trinity isn't Scriptural. Doesn't stand to scrutiny. Wouldn't it be nice fi you just had something that said there is a Trinity in the bible? We wouldn't have to debate all this.
 
According to Matthew, blaspheming Jesus is forgivable, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not forgivable, with no mention of the Father. So blaspheming the Father is kosher? Did you know the Father is the Holy Spirit and Jesus isn't?

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
It was not I speaking against the HS. It was the bible. Had you read slowly and completely you would know that.

How did the Father split Himself during Jesus' baptism.?

Or

If the HS and the Father are one, and when Jesus said he would pray the Father send them another helper when He was gone, (meaning the HS) Again does the Father divide Himself or Does the Father live in us? That would leave Jesus all alone in heaven.

Wait... dont answer for I wont be reading your reply.

You know what Runningman. Time to go onto ignore because 10s of thousands of words, repeating ad nauseum on both sides of the coin pretty in multiple threads pretty much seems like overkill. So just call me dead... Bye
hilarious.gif
 
Knowing Jesus isn't the same thing as knowing the Father. Too many differences. For starters, Jesus is a human with a human nature. He was tempted in every way as we are, was fallible, mortal, had to learn, grow, develop, etc. This doesn't describe God at all. That's how it's possible to know Jesus without knowing God.
You do not explain here any reason why Jesus changed such that they could now see the Father. You never even have clever ways to explain away the meaning of the text.
 
Knowing Jesus isn't the same thing as knowing the Father. Too many differences. For starters, Jesus is a human with a human nature. He was tempted in every way as we are, was fallible, mortal, had to learn, grow, develop, etc. This doesn't describe God at all. That's how it's possible to know Jesus without knowing God.
Jesus was a complex person, fully human, and fully God, and these two natures never interacted with each other. Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus! Jesus was both the Son of God, and the Son of Man.
 
According to Matthew, blaspheming Jesus is forgivable, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is not forgivable, with no mention of the Father. So blaspheming the Father is kosher? Did you know the Father is the Holy Spirit and Jesus isn't?

Matthew 12
31Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
See post #112
 
and it also illustrates that the Trinity isn't Scriptural. Doesn't stand to scrutiny. Wouldn't it be nice fi you just had something that said there is a Trinity in the bible? We wouldn't have to debate all this.
There is a Trinity of person's as far as their work in the redemption of God elect.

2nd Corinthians 13:14​

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.


Here are the things we all need: Jesus Christ’s grace, God’s love, and the Holy Spirit’s fellowship.
 
Jesus was a complex person, fully human, and fully God, and these two natures never interacted with each other. Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus! Jesus was both the Son of God, and the Son of Man.
May I ask which of those two natures...
...interacted with men (eg preaching, healing, rebuking, bringing consolation)?
...resisted temptation?
...prayed to the Father?
...died on the cross?
 
and it also illustrates that the Trinity isn't Scriptural. Doesn't stand to scrutiny. Wouldn't it be nice fi you just had something that said there is a Trinity in the bible? We wouldn't have to debate all this.
I guess that it is a darn good thing that that wasn't the purpose of that post and that I offered the other scriptures that show Jesus and the Father are both GOD [so you have at least a "Binity" from what I presented.] There are scriptures that affirm the deity of the Holy Spirit as well, but what is the point. Once you reject Christ ... it is "game over" for orthodoxy and heterodoxy, leaving only contra-biblical heresies. Where is the profit in arguing about that?
 
May I ask which of those two natures...
...interacted with men (eg preaching, healing, rebuking, bringing consolation)?
Both~

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
May I ask which of those two natures...
...resisted temptation?
His humanity
May I ask which of those two natures...
...prayed to the Father?
His humanity
May I ask which of those two natures...
...died on the cross?
Of course, his humanity.
 
God is not Time, but this illustrates that there can exist TRINITY in UNITY. The existence of PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE do not negate the existence of TIME and TIME being real, does not make the PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE impossible.
Amen! The Entire universe is Amazing, eh?:

"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by​
the things that are made, even His Eternal Power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"​
(Romans 1:20 AV)​
Considering these "created In The Image Of God", eh?:

A) ONE huge universe = THREE = time, space and matter

B) ONE tiny atom = THREE = neutron, proton, and electron

C) ONE human being = THREE = body, soul, and spirit

Conclusion: ONE Triune GodHead = THREE = Father, SON, And Holy Spirit!:

"For There Are THREE That Bear Record In Heaven, The Father, The WORD,​
And The Holy Ghost: And These THREE Are ONE." (1 John 5:7 AV)​
Scriptural Confirming Conclusion: Why The Triune GodHead Is Correct!

Considering:

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached,​
or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel,​
which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."​
(2 Corinthians 11:4 AV)​

We ask:

Oh LORD, how long will the unbelieving remain in there state of UNbelief? Eternity, eh?
Still bearing with, and, praying for them.

Amen.
 
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Both~

1st Timothy 3:16​

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

His humanity

His humanity

Of course, his humanity.
Thank you, my brother, for your answers.
So, thinking in the salvific ministry of Jesus, you believe that Jesus resisted temptation as a human, prayed to God as a human, and died on the cross as a human. I agree with you.

Now, you say that He interacted with people both as God and human.
I don't understand why you said that.
Did the Messengers of God need to be God in order to preach, make all kind of miracles, rebuke, lead, etc?
I also believe that God manifested in the flesh, in the ministry of Jesus. That is what 1 Timothy 3:16 says. I firmly believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God. This doesn't mean Jesus was God.
 
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