Why The Trinity is Wrong: Language Usage

synergy said:
Unfortunately, my Hebrew is non-existant. Your information is extremely helpful but I need something on the level of the video "Jesus is God" that you told us about. That video was excellent!!! That's the level I'm at when it comes to understanding the Hebrew Text. I need to put everything into historical context, step by step. I need to understand the "why's" of the text as much as I understand the text itself. That's just me.
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My Greek use to be decent but I'm a bit rusty these days and with Hebrew I know nothing so to speak.
 
synergy said:
Unfortunately, my Hebrew is non-existant. Your information is extremely helpful but I need something on the level of the video "Jesus is God" that you told us about. That video was excellent!!! That's the level I'm at when it comes to understanding the Hebrew Text. I need to put everything into historical context, step by step. I need to understand the "why's" of the text as much as I understand the text itself. That's just me.
Click to expand...
-and since then I have put out more video clips on the Memra-the TWO Powers and the Closed Mem brother and a ton of rabbinical sources-the Targums etc.

If you can make time-listen to the debates between Orthodox rabbis-Messianic-and Muslim-and what sources they are using.

One for Israel is a good site to start since we need to read our Bible with an Eastern mindset-not West.

It is not for the fainthearted.
Shalom my brother.
J.
 
civic said:
My Greek use to be decent but I'm a bit rusty these days and with Hebrew I know nothing so to speak.
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Hebrew and Koine Greek is not that difficult-but you need to familiarize yourself with the grammar and morphologies-and most here don't know what I'm talking about brother.
J.
 
Johann said:
Hebrew and Koine Greek is not that difficult-but you need to familiarize yourself with the grammar and morphologies-and most here don't know what I'm talking about brother.
J.
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I can with Greek but with Hebrew I'm a fish out of water lol. And at my old age :) I have no desire to try and learn Hebrew. I leave that to the young folks. :)
 
civic said:
I can with Greek but with Hebrew I'm a fish out of water lol. And at my old age :) I have no desire to try and learn Hebrew. I leave that to the young folks. :)
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Guess there is where I am one up with you brother-I have a gift for languages.
Try and study Isaiah 53 with the Syntax-using Hebrew and rabbinical sources and see what our Lord Jesus Christ endured, voluntary.

The origin of the Septuagint
Prehistory of the Translation Work
An understanding of the situation in Alexandria, Egypt in the 3rd century BC is foundational to comprehending the origin of the LXX.6 There was a concentration of Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt in the few hundred years before Christ.

In Egypt a knowledge of Greek was not a mere luxury but a necessity of daily life.7 For Barclay, the production of the LXX exemplifies the rapidity of Hellenization of Alexandrian Jews; the Hebrew Scriptures “looked disappointingly ‘barbaic’ from their Hellenizing perspective.”8 The repercussions for Jewish religious life were significant, especially since much of the Jewish population had lost their Hebrew.9 Bickerman reveals the implications regarding Judaism’s liturgical worship style:

It is most likely that in the Alexandrian synagogue a dragoman standing beside the reader translated the lesson into Greek. . . . under the conditions of book making in antiquity, it would be a fantastic waste of money and labor to translate, copy and recopy the whole Pentateuch in order to provide help for an occasional oral translation of isolated passages of the Torah.10

Bickerman has argued that the LXX may have been birthed in Jewish centres of learning in Egypt through such oral translation.11 Translation into Greek was a common phenomenon in Hellenistic Egypt.12 Aristobulus, the first known Jewish philosopher, wrote that “older partial translations had already been read by Pythagoras and Plato”13 thereby giving credence to the idea that the LXX was not the first attempt made at translating the Hebrew into Greek, highlighting the demand for translation work in the diaspora.14 The situation at Alexandria was unique in that it provided the ideal scenario in which to introduce a translation of the Hebrew scriptures, especially of the most liturgically and socially significant portions of the Hebrew scriptures. Still, consensus on any one theory of origin has proven elusive. Herewith, we touch upon two related but distinct questions: what motivated the translation and in what textual form would the translation have originated?

Theories of Origin: Motives
The needs of the diaspora for an understandable translation of their scriptures is just one of the many factors leading to the origin of the LXX. Various theories of origin have sought to pinpoint the main reason for its production. Five of these are worth brief consideration at this point.

The Letter of Aristeas
The first theory is based upon the Letter of Aristeas, otherwise called Pseudo-Aristeas.15 This letter, considered a “primary source”16 for the origin of the LXX, is included among the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha and was probably written around 150-100 BC.17 The letter contains a description of the circumstances surrounding the origin of the LXX, along with other irrelevant information. Demetrius, the chief librarian of Ptolemy II (285-247 BC), suggested to the king that he add the Jewish Law to his famous and expansive collection of books.18 The king had assigned Demetrius the task of collecting all the known books in the world, and Demetrius thought that a copy of the Law of the Jews should be included. The king was persuaded, and envoys headed to Palestine. Seventy-two translators were sent by the high priest in Jerusalem to Ptolemy along with Torah scrolls from the Temple. After a fruitful meeting with the king, the translators were escorted off to comfortable quarters on an island. Seventy-two days later the translators emerged with their work, which was completely without error and in total agreement. The Jewish people in the area rejoiced and accepted it as divine scripture, and the translators were sent home bearing gifts.19
The origin of the Septuagint

Shalom
J.
 
Johann said:
Guess there is where I am one up with you brother-I have a gift for languages.
Try and study Isaiah 53 with the Syntax-using Hebrew and rabbinical sources and see what our Lord Jesus Christ endured, voluntary.

The origin of the Septuagint
Prehistory of the Translation Work
An understanding of the situation in Alexandria, Egypt in the 3rd century BC is foundational to comprehending the origin of the LXX.6 There was a concentration of Jews living in Alexandria, Egypt in the few hundred years before Christ.

In Egypt a knowledge of Greek was not a mere luxury but a necessity of daily life.7 For Barclay, the production of the LXX exemplifies the rapidity of Hellenization of Alexandrian Jews; the Hebrew Scriptures “looked disappointingly ‘barbaic’ from their Hellenizing perspective.”8 The repercussions for Jewish religious life were significant, especially since much of the Jewish population had lost their Hebrew.9 Bickerman reveals the implications regarding Judaism’s liturgical worship style:

It is most likely that in the Alexandrian synagogue a dragoman standing beside the reader translated the lesson into Greek. . . . under the conditions of book making in antiquity, it would be a fantastic waste of money and labor to translate, copy and recopy the whole Pentateuch in order to provide help for an occasional oral translation of isolated passages of the Torah.10

Bickerman has argued that the LXX may have been birthed in Jewish centres of learning in Egypt through such oral translation.11 Translation into Greek was a common phenomenon in Hellenistic Egypt.12 Aristobulus, the first known Jewish philosopher, wrote that “older partial translations had already been read by Pythagoras and Plato”13 thereby giving credence to the idea that the LXX was not the first attempt made at translating the Hebrew into Greek, highlighting the demand for translation work in the diaspora.14 The situation at Alexandria was unique in that it provided the ideal scenario in which to introduce a translation of the Hebrew scriptures, especially of the most liturgically and socially significant portions of the Hebrew scriptures. Still, consensus on any one theory of origin has proven elusive. Herewith, we touch upon two related but distinct questions: what motivated the translation and in what textual form would the translation have originated?

Theories of Origin: Motives
The needs of the diaspora for an understandable translation of their scriptures is just one of the many factors leading to the origin of the LXX. Various theories of origin have sought to pinpoint the main reason for its production. Five of these are worth brief consideration at this point.

The Letter of Aristeas
The first theory is based upon the Letter of Aristeas, otherwise called Pseudo-Aristeas.15 This letter, considered a “primary source”16 for the origin of the LXX, is included among the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha and was probably written around 150-100 BC.17 The letter contains a description of the circumstances surrounding the origin of the LXX, along with other irrelevant information. Demetrius, the chief librarian of Ptolemy II (285-247 BC), suggested to the king that he add the Jewish Law to his famous and expansive collection of books.18 The king had assigned Demetrius the task of collecting all the known books in the world, and Demetrius thought that a copy of the Law of the Jews should be included. The king was persuaded, and envoys headed to Palestine. Seventy-two translators were sent by the high priest in Jerusalem to Ptolemy along with Torah scrolls from the Temple. After a fruitful meeting with the king, the translators were escorted off to comfortable quarters on an island. Seventy-two days later the translators emerged with their work, which was completely without error and in total agreement. The Jewish people in the area rejoiced and accepted it as divine scripture, and the translators were sent home bearing gifts.19
The origin of the Septuagint

Shalom
J.
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Well as you know the Jews for the most part reject this as Messianic. ( Isaiah 53 ) and its highly debatable. Its not a slam dunk in Judaism. Its very controversial at best.
 
synergy said:
do you know of any good pro-Trinitarian book that goes into the Greek OT (LXX) and Greek NT to properly teach Trinitarianism, for an English audience?
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I found both f these books by Gordon Fee very good.
I am not sureiof they have everything that you are looking for, but I learned quite a bit from them.

Jesus the Lord according to Paul the Apostle:

Pauline Christology: An Exegetical-Theological Study.
 
civic said:
Well as you know the Jews for the most part reject this as Messianic. ( Isaiah 53 ) and its highly debatable. Its not a slam dunk in Judaism. Its very controversial at best.
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Agreed-but it should spur and motivate us to search the Scriptures and use rabbinical sources.
Ever went to a Shul and see how the rabbi study?
Johann.
 
civic said:
I like your Bowman reference above I'm friends with Rob. :) He is such a great man of God, a defender of truth and a great apologist. I have learned allot from him over the years.
Click to expand...

I thought his book with Ed Komoszewski, Putting Jesus in His Place: The Case for the Deity of Christ, was very good.
 
civic said:
Well as you know the Jews for the most part reject this as Messianic. ( Isaiah 53 ) and its highly debatable. Its not a slam dunk in Judaism. Its very controversial at best.
Click to expand...

It's not debatable.

Let alone "highly" debatable.

You can "debate" anything, doesn't make it "debatable."
 
Wrangler said:
I know trinitarians believe in the trinity. My point is the trinity is not in Scripture. There simply is no verse that spells it out as a requirement for salvation like trinitarians suppose.
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The Trinity is the God of the Bible. Any other "god" is a false god, and a false god cannot save.
 
Fred said:
The Trinity is the God of the Bible. Any other "god" is a false god, and a false god cannot save.
Click to expand...
Wrong. The God of the Bible is Jesus' God named YHWH.


Listen, Israel: Yahweh is our Elohim. Yahweh is the only God.
Deut 6:4
 
Wrangler said:
I know trinitarians believe in the trinity. My point is the trinity is not in Scripture. There simply is no verse that spells it out as a requirement for salvation like trinitarians suppose.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as a requirement for salvation.

There are quire a few Trinitarians who don't see it as a requirement.

None of us know God perfectly, the essential truths still come to us through the grace of Christ.
 

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