Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[Red Baker]

Take it easy RB.
Rest up...it'll pass...
same thing on this side of the pond...it takes forever to get over it.

@GodsGrace

Greetings Fran,

My wife and children are saying the same to me; one of my son-in-law's told me to come to the hospital he will have me a room and everything there for me, and wanted me to come and stay until I'm better ~ a lot of my children and even grandchildren are in the medical field. I'm an old man that loves the comfort of my own house, bed, etc.

You're stating that God does not seek man.

Fran, read very carefully what I have said....God does indeed seek his sheep, but not goats. He seeks all without "distinction" from every nations of this world, every tongue, etc., but he does not seek all without exception...Fran, as you well know, some of the first converts to the early church were Italian, some of your own people.

Acts 10:1​

“There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,”

Fran, soon I would love to discuss Cornelius with you and others here very soon Cornelius was a born again child of God before Peter ever met him, Peter was sent to bring the gospel to him that he might be saved in a practical sense, but more on this later.

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

'All men" meaning not just Jews only, but all without dictinction, Jews and Gentiles which he did as we see in the rest of the holy scriptures.

And what do you believe John meant when he wrote the following?:
1 John 1:3-4
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
John wrote his gospel and letters to proclaim what the APOSTELS HAD SEEN.
So that WE also could have fellowship with the Father and Son.
Why would John write the above if he believed God was going to choose the saved?
It would make no sense at all.

1st John 1:3,4​

“That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full."

Fran, John and all the apostles wrote unto others believers, not to the world, that would had been a total waste of time. John made it very clear that he wrote to them, NOT to get any born again, but, so that their present joy, would increase and be full!

Fran, what would we know about Jesus the Son of God without this apostolic declaration? Nothing. We do not believe God and Christ by oral tradition, but many writers (Luke 1:1-4).

What is the purpose of the apostles seeking out God’s elect? For fellowship with God! After the doctrine of Christ – the true body of knowledge about Him – is relationship. There is a practical salvation from the hopelessness of this life in knowing Christ (2nd Timothy 2:10).

Learning of Jesus, where He is now and He will return, is our religion (I Cor 15:19). This comes through the written word of God to us.

v4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.​

We do not limit these things to the first three verses, but neither do we minimize them. There is fellowship in the verses before and after this verse, indicating both included. Fellowship with God – by doctrinal truth and godly conduct – is the basis of real joy. These things = plural demonstrative adjective for the content of verses 1-3 and more. It is a shame to watch carnal Christians (if they are saved) look for joy in the world.

Why did John write? Why did the Holy Spirit inspire him and then preserve the letter? The that here, like above, is a conjunction for John’s goal and purpose for writing. That. Introducing a clause expressing purpose, end, aim, or desire: often with may. Because this glorious God … and His Son … love us and want our utmost happiness. Any lack of fulness of joy is always our fault, not His, and we miss His intentions. Our God is terrible, but He loves His adopted children and wants to dote on them. Why do any parents adopt? To take a deprived child and drastically improve its life. How much joy does God want us to have? Filled with all you can receive (Romans 15:13).

 

[Red Baker]

Wait.
Are you saying we are saved by the faith of Christ and not our own faith?

@GodsGrace

Well, hello, did the light just now turn on?!

I'll answer this in the morning, I'm resting for an hour before supper. In the morning Miss Fran, the Lord be with my friend from across the seas.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Well, hello, did the light just now turn on?!

I think the room just got darker!!

I'll answer this in the morning, I'm resting for an hour before supper. In the morning Miss Fran, the Lord be with my friend from across the seas.

Sleepy time here.
Don't go to the hospital.
Stay in your own home unless it's impossible and you need special care.
Too many germs and sick people in hospitals!!
If you could post,,,,you're good.
Will reply tomorrow.
'night.

 

[civic]

Wait.
Are you saying we are saved by the faith of Christ and not our own faith?
Please post scripture that states this.
Please post scripture that states that our faith produces perfect obedience.

The jailer in Acts 16:31 was told that he would be saved by BELIEVING.

BELIEVING means to have faith.
Paul didn't tell the jailer that Jesus had faith FOR HIM...
He told the jailer to BELIEVE...to HAVE FAITH.

Why would Jesus need faith?
Faith is something hoped for....
Jesus was God...what did He hope for?
Was He not saved?

Yes. Faith is a gift.
But the person must WANT that free gift.
The gift is FOR ALL....IF they meet the requirements.

YOU believe God picks and chooses based on nothing we could know.

Instead, the entire bible was written so that we could know God and how to please Him.

Here are the requirements:
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
BELIEVE


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
OBEY



Every Christian believes the above,,,unless you're using words that to you mean something different.
It is God that works in us.....His elect but by our choice.....

If we were in Christ from all eternity...why is there a time when we become born again?
And would a baby end up in hell if he died BEFORE the time of becoming born again even if he
was chosen from all eternity?
The implication of this is that we would never know if a baby went to hell or heaven....
and the bible teaches that a baby cannot sin.

Faith is for those who need to be saved and Jesus is the Savior and is not in need of being saved.

 

[Red Baker]

Faith is for those who need to be saved and Jesus is the Savior and is not in need of being saved.

@civic

Brother, you have been in faith a long time, long enough to know that Jesus Christ was the surety of God's people, pray tell me your understanding what a surety is ~ this is so vital for one to fully grasp, if that person desires to fully understand the gospel of God's free grace given freely througth his Son, Jesus of Narareth.

 

[Red Baker]

I think the room just got darker!!

Sleepy time here.
Don't go to the hospital.
Stay in your own home unless it's impossible and you need special care.
Too many germs and sick people in hospitals!!
If you could post,,,,you're good.
Will reply tomorrow.
'night.

@GodsGrace

Fran, that's another reason why I avoid not staying there if all possible, maybe the main reason, it is almost a death sentence for older folks, like me.

Sister, trust God, your life maybe just got some precious light for heaven whence all light comes from.

James 1:17​

“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”

 

[Jim]

Jim I believe in works, in the sense in which Jesus here mention works, that faith IS A WORK of the law, which only God's children can obey once they have been created after the image of Jesus Christ, no problem Jim. I reject works of any kind before one is quicken to life by the Spirit of the Living God.

No, works that Jesus spoke of in John 6:29 is not a work of the law. Once again, you show that you do not understand the works that Jesus spoke about and the works of law that Paul spoke about when he declared that salvation was not from works of law. It is not really that difficult to understand. Works of law are those laws, commands of God, found in the Torah. You will not find the "work" that Jesus spoke of in John 6:29 in the Law.

Hebrews 11 is not addressing free justification by God's grace as Galatians 2-5:4 does ~ Hebrews 11 is showing us what how the evidence of true faith living their life on this earth as they journey to the promised land. Two totally different subjects the the Spirit addressing.

Oh my! Hebrews 11 first defines faith, then proceeds to show examples of what the faith produced. It demonstrates, for example, Abraham's faith (v.17). which Paul in Romans 4 declares that it was counted to Abraham for righteousness, i.e., was the basis for the Justification of Abraham.

The translation Jim agrees with the gospel of Jesus Christ and free grace, so we KNOW that it is correct. The Spirit was very careful through Paul with His wording of Galatians 2:16.

First the translation agrees only with what you declare to be the gospel of Jesus Christ and free grace. No such agreement is ever thus presented. Second, I agree that the Spirit was very careful through Paul with His wording of Galatians 2:16. Here is what, to the very best of what we have received, Paul wrote:

Gal 2:16 εἰδότες δὲ ὅτι οὐ δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος ἐξ ἔργων νόμου ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ, καὶ ἡμεῖς εἰς Χριστὸν ᾿Ιησοῦν ἐπιστεύσαμεν, ἵνα δικαιωθῶμεν ἐκ πίστεως Χριστοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, διότι οὐ δικαιωθήσεται ἐξ ἔργων νόμου πᾶσα σάρξ.

There is neither of the words OF or IN to be found there. It is ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ. Whether in English the correct interpretation is faith OF or faith IN Jesus Christ is strictly by interpretation. I know of no scholars who interpret that to mean Jesus Christ's faith. As I pointed out to you, even John Gill acknowledges that it is speaking of our faith "of which he [Jesus Christ] is the object, author, and finisher".

Read what Albert Barnes says concerning the KJV phrase, faith of Jesus Christ.

By faith of Jesus Christ - That is, by faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, the expression, Mar_11:22, “Have the faith of God” (margin), means, have faith in God. So Act_3:16, the “faith of his name” “(Greek),” means, faith in his name. So Gal_2:20, the “faith of the Son of God” means, faith in the Son of God. This cannot mean that faith is the meritorious cause of salvation, but that it is the instrument or means by which we become justified. It is the state of mind, or condition of the heart, to which God has been pleased to promise justification. (On the nature of faith see the note at Mar_16:16.) God has promised that they who believe in Christ shall be pardoned and saved. This is his plan in distinction from the plan of those who seek to be justified by works.

Jim you do not like the word? Many do not, so you are not alone. The word is used if I remember correctly at least fifteen times in the NT. So, it is a very biblical word and should be used. Chosen, election, elect, etc. Bible words Jim, even though those words are very seldom used in most places of worship, and it they are, it is more so to refute them to teach its truths.

I, in fact, do very much like word elect. But I, also in fact, detest the Calvinist/Reformed Theology perverted corrupt definition and meaning of the word. That comes not from God's word, but from the corrupt Augustinian doctrine of Total Depravity.

Jim , that a very sad statement coming from an older believer, you are not considering that Christ was a man sent to be a surety of God's elect.

You have lately come to like your concept of "surety". What is a very sad statement coming from an older believer is that you do not even understand what your believing is all about.

Again, I appeal to you do consider what Albert Barnes says about believing.

Mark 16:16

He that believeth - That is, believeth the gospel. “He who credits it to be true, and acts as if it were true.” This is the whole of faith. Man is a sinner. He should act on the belief of this truth and repent. There is a God. Man should believe it, and fear and love him, and seek his favor. The Lord Jesus died to save him. To have faith in him is to believe that this is true, and to act accordingly; that is, to trust him, to rely on him, to love him, to feel that we have no merit, and to cast our all upon him. There is a heaven and a hell. To believe this is to credit the account and act as if it were true - to seek the one and avoid the other. We are to die. To believe this is to act as if this were so; to be in readiness for it, and to expect it daily and hourly. In one word, faith is feeling and acting as if there were a God, a Saviour, a heaven, a hell; as if we were sinners and must die; as if we deserved eternal death and were in danger of it; and, in view of all, casting our eternal interests on the mercy of God in Christ Jesus. To do this is to be a Christian: not to do it is to be an infidel.

I like Gill very much, but he's man just like you and myself, subject to error, which you know. I do not follow any man blindly.

Yes, I know you don't. But you have blinded yourself in following of a whole class of the false doctrines promoted by the likes of and followers of Augustine, Calvin, and others.

 

[Red Baker]

Many years ago (around forty) I preached to a very small group of people in Batesville, S.C. not far from Columbia, S.C., for another minister who could not make the trip for some reason, I do not remember now, I was a young man in my late thirties, I still remembered what I preached on..."Cornelius, the mystery man".

I had not long been in the faith, maybe eleven years, or so, and I wanted to share with others what I saw in the scriptures , a very short time before I shared it with others ~ I thought if it help me, then it would help others as well, and it did to one older lady there who came up to me and said, "I often wondered about Cornelius and why God gave us such a details of his conversion to the truth, now I see why".... and she thanked me, even though as I'm know my abilities to convey the truth fell far short of what men like Paul, Peter, could have taught, and even others of my own generation who may see the same truths that I see, yet, conveying these truth in a manner where God's children can grasp their meaning is never easy, and we can only do so, to the degree we trust God to be with so in doing so. I often find it becomes easier for me the more I trust the Lord to speak as I ought to speak, the easier it become me to do so. The more I trust. in myself, the more heaven seems to become brass unto me.

Consider with me Acts 10.

Acts 10:1-6~"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do."

For sake of time and space, I will highlight words I desire for our readers to consider, and then we shall speak after wards to consider this godly man's life before his conversion more perfectly to the truth, a salvation that is indeed needed and it will shows us why we must preach the gospel and the purpose of doing so.

So, we see, Cornelius was a devout man, one that fear God, and he gave much alms, and he prayed always and his prayers came up as a sweet smelling savior unto God, he even had a visitor from heaven which he saw in a vision ~ this is God's testimony of this centurion. A very impressive resume. I would love to have this man as a close friend of mine, he would only make me a better person ~ all this before he was ever baptized into the religion/faith of Jesus Christ, all before he experienced a another phrase of practical salvation that we all will experience from time to time as we grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, which we all should do.

Acts 10:7-23~"And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; And when he had declared all these things unto them, he sent them to Joppa. On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate, And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come? And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. Then called he them in, and lodged them. And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him."

Does God order all things to work in accordance to his eternal will? You judge with the scriptures before us. Cornelius sending men to fetch Peter per the angel's direction and before they came, Peter just happened to become very hungry and while he waited as they prepared a meal for Peter, he went to pray, God just happened to visit Peter himself in order to prepare Peter to receive the men coming after him from the Gentiles. God made a meal for Peter on a vessel with all manner of wild beast of the earth and creeping things and fowls of the air, mostly of thing Peter had never put into his mouth, because they were forbidden to Israel under Moses' laws that he had given them, which were only given until the time of reformation when they would understand why such laws were given. The unclean wild beast, creeping things and fowls, were a type of unclean Gentiles ~ unclean only because God had not as of yet shown them the same mercy he had to some within Israel. God's eternal plan was about to be revealed even more so by Him visiting the Gentile to take out of them a people for himself. Some of these Gentiles are now to be part of the same body as the elect Israelites, each forming a holy temple for an everlasting habitation of God's Spirit. (Acts 15:15-18; Ephesians 2:10-3:8; etc.). I'll saved most of my understanding when we give a summary of Acts 10.

Acts 10:24-33~"And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee. Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God."

I love this story and should all who love the gospel of Jesus Christ, that Jesus alone saves his people by his might power, he only uses a man like Peter, to guide his sheep in the way that they should go and into the doctrine that they should trust, such doctrines, sum total, give ALL GLORY TO GOD ALONE in the salvation of his people.

Acts 10:34-48~"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days."

Coming back to make one post summarizing this wonderful portion of God's word

 

[jeremiah1five]

John 20:8 "So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb (John) then also entered, and he saw and believed."

Wait, I thought John was already a believer. He was, but now he believed that Jesus rose from the dead!

Verse 9 "For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, the He must rise again from the dead.

So who did Jesus first appear to, after His resurrection? A nonbeliever? No, to Mary, who was already a believer. See John 20:15-16

And He tells Mary to go find all her unsaved family and friends and tell them that Jesus is alive? NO, he tells her to report this good news to "My brethren", His disciples.

Jesus' "brethren" are the 12 tribes of Israel. In other words, the Hebrews/Jews.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

So who does Jesus appear to next? All the nonbelievers in Jerusalem? No, He goes directly to the room where the disciples had locked themselves in, probably for fear that they could also be crucified. He presents Himself alive just to them.

But Thomas didn't happen to be there at that time. In fact, he didn't even believe the other disciples had actually seen Jesus alive. So, eight days later, Jesus appears again to His disciples. This time Thomas is there. Jesus gently rebukes Him, "Do not be unbelieving, but believing."

Thomas responds: "My Lord and my God!" Jesus tells him (while the other disciples were listening), "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (That would be US!)

No, that would be the Jews. Jesus is the fulfillment of THEIR covenant and prophecies God sent from the Jews to the Jews.

Then the next verse (verse 30) begins with "Therefore," . In other words, what I'm about to say has been written because of the information that I have given you earlier in this chapter and in this book. "Therefore, many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; AND THAT BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME."

Who is John addressing this to? PRIMARILY BELIEVERS! FOLLOWERS AND DISCIPLES OF JESUS THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES! (Although John probably did not know that millions would be reading his book over the centuries) Sure, it's great that nonbelievers read his book, but his primary concern is to strengthen the faith of other Christians, that they may have full assurance that what they have already believed, is in fact, true!

ALL SCRIPTURE (Genesis to Malachi) and later including the New Covenant writings - Matthew to Revelation - are written by Jews to and for other Jews. God is speaking to His covenant people - the children of Israel. ONLY.

Just as Jesus was NOT appearing to non-Christians, but purposely appeared to those who already believed in Him, so the book of John was purposely written to strengthen the faith of all believers everywhere.

In fact, is there ANY book in the entire Bible specifically addressed to nonbelievers? I don't think so.

The entire bible (Genesis to Revelation) is written to the Hebrew people who are in covenant with God. This includes believers and unbelievers of the Hebrew nation.

This may be why many non-Christians say that they have read the gospels, for example, and yet they appear to be unaffected by it. Why? Maybe because it was not written for them or to them. And yet, it is the gospel that has the power to save, isn't it? So the Father has to draw them to Himself and to Jesus, and if they don't resist that drawing, the gospel message can powerfully save them.

It is not the "gospel" that saves, but God Himself is the Great Deliverer of the Hebrew people.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jim I believe in works, in the sense in which Jesus here mention works, that faith IS A WORK of the law, which only God's children can obey once they have been created after the image of Jesus Christ, no problem Jim. I reject works of any kind before one is quicken to life by the Spirit of the Living God.

Hebrews 11 is not addressing free justification by God's grace as Galatians 2-5:4 does ~ Hebrews 11 is showing us what how the evidence of true faith living their life on this earth as they journey to the promised land. Two totally different subjects the the Spirit addressing.

The translation Jim agrees with the gospel of Jesus Christ and free grace, so we KNOW that it is correct. The Spirit was very careful through Paul with His wording of Galatians 2:16.

Jim you do not like the word? Many do not, so you are not alone. The word is used if I remember correctly at least fifteen times in the NT. So, it is a very biblical word and should be used. Chosen, election, elect, etc. Bible words Jim, even though those words are very seldom used in most places of worship, and it they are, it is more so to refute them to teach its truths.

Jim , that a very sad statement coming from an older believer, you are not considering that Christ was a man sent to be a surety of God's elect.

I like Gill very much, but he's man just like you and myself, subject to error, which you know. I do not follow any man blindly.

A quick point RB...
Elected certainly is in the bible.
It could mean the nation of Israel through which God chose to reveal Himself.
God ELECTED Israel to be His plan of Revelation.

Or it could mean the saved.
WE are the ELECT of God.

Here's the big difference:
YOU understand elect to mean that God chose certain persons for salvation based on
nothing at all except His good pleasure.
IOW...you believe in UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.
Man is elected based on nothing...
God goes not allow man to know HOW he can be saved because it is up to God 100%...
a person has no say in whether or not they want to spend eternity with God.
IS THIS A JUST GOD?
No.

All Other Christians understand election to be BASED ON SOMETHING.
This would be CONDITIONAL ELECTION.
Man is elected and is saved based on a certain criteria...
based on SOMETHING.
God desires for persons to be saved and let's persons KNOW HOW to become saved.
God reveals Himself in General Revelation, or by His Word, or any other way He wishes.
Man responds to God's call and agrees to GOD'S CONDITIONS, which God is happy to make known.
The conditions are simple:
Know God
Obey God
IS THIS A JUST GOD?
Yes.


KNOW GOD
Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

1. WE GO TO GOD. Free will.
2. WE BELIEVE IN GOD. Free will.
3. IT IS POSSIBLE TO SEEK GOD. The reformed deny this and place all the responsibility for salvation on God.

OBEY GOD
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1. It is necessary to obey God.

Why speak of obedience IF God is going to cause every action of man??

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus' "brethren" are the 12 tribes of Israel. In other words, the Hebrews/Jews.

@jeremiah1five,

You need to get you head out of the OT and the Jews' Religion called Judaism, and let the True Israel of God introduce you to the Savior of Jews and Gentiles, the true spiritual tribes of the NT.

Revelation 7:1-4~And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Reading over this chapter superficially (which is what most folks do most of the time, if truth was known) it might appear that a literal understanding of the physical nation of Israel is warranted, and that only 144,000 Jewish people are sealed or saved. However, when studied carefully, we find such an understanding is untenable. Considering not only the facts of the immediate context, but also as these things are studied in the light of related passages, this cannot be speaking of national Israel. Indeed, if we are to take this Israel as the literal nation, or of only physical Jews, then we must of necessity also take the number sealed as "literally" only 144,000 that will be secured or saved. But even the staunchest advocates of a totally literal exegesis will generally not accept such a conclusion. i.e., they once again violate their own rules when it contradicts their theories, and will find ways to get around them.

Moreover, there are peculiarities with this list of tribes which also serve to illustrate that they are not to be taken literally. We are informed that they are sealed from "all" the tribes of Israel, but two of the literal tribes (Dan and Ephraim) are missing. This naturally brings up the question, "..what all Israel?" The consistent and round number of exactly 12,000 people from each of the tribes, is another clue that we should not take this literally. If there are literally only 12,000 saved from each tribe of Israel, it is a minuscule number. And if it is not to be taken literally, then it is inconsistent to take the number of the tribes, or the nation Israel as literal.

Moreover, Levi is listed here when it is not normally listed in the tribes of Israel. And the tribe of Joseph, through Manasseh, is listed twice. These are just a few of the oddities which would alert any prudent student of sound hermeneutics, that this is not to be taken as a literal narrative. And this is not even taking into consideration that all throughout the chapters of Revelation we see events pictured symbolically, and what is clearly figurative language, rather than a literal straight forward history. And we will see the reasons for this unfold vividly as we search through these verses, illuminating their spiritual truth in the light of the rest of scripture.

Without spending much time now, look at this scriptures and it will clearly tell us who are the twelve tribes of Israel, and they are not limited to the natural seed of Abraham, not even close.

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

As usual Jeremiah, your understanding is blinded by your overly strong love for the natural seed of Abraham, when even in the OT, only a few of them were part of the children of God's promises, and in the NT, even less ~ and we will add, there is not a single promise for them now that God has not fulfilled.

Jeremiah1Five...21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Matt. 1:21.

Jesus' people are from every nation under heaven~not just the natural seed of Abraham, even in the OT, there were Gentiles that were children of faith, even more so than what was found in Israel, do I need to prove this. Time would fail me, to mention all of Rahab was a Canaanite woman ...even in Jesus' genealogy there was Ruth, from Moab, not a Jew btw. Remember when Jesus spoke these words: , Jesus says, "I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!" In both Matthew 8:10 and Luke 7:9, Jesus says these words to express amazement at the faith of a Roman centurion and a Gentile, respectively,

Jeremiah1Five: ALL SCRIPTURE (Genesis to Malachi) and later including the New Covenant writings - Matthew to Revelation - are written by Jews to and for other Jews. God is speaking to His covenant people - the children of Israel. ONLY.

Not for Jews only ~ Listen carefully to Paul who was indeed a Jews by nature:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Paul and the other apostles would say that you are believing in and proclaiming a lie.

Jeremiah1Five: The entire bible (Genesis to Revelation) is written to the Hebrew people who are in covenant with God. This includes believers and unbelievers of the Hebrew nation.

The word of God is written to the children of God's oath and promises, not necessarily to all Jews without exception and not to all Gentiles without exception, but the holy scriptures are given unto God's children's of his promises and holy oath.

1st Corinthians 10:11​

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

Jeremiah1Five: It is not the "gospel" that saves, but God Himself is the Great Deliverer of the Hebrew people.

What you should had written is this: "God himself WAS the Great Deliverer of his OT people, the Hebrews,"......which people only typified a great mystery hidden in the OT scriptures, that God's people are from every nation under heaven, that he is now gathering and preparing as a spiritual stones that are going to be the eternal tabernacle/city of the Most High, called the New Jerusalem.

 

[jeremiah1five]

@jeremiah1five,

You need to get you head out of the OT and the Jews' Religion called Judaism, and let the True Israel of God introduce you to the Savior of Jews and Gentiles, the true spiritual tribes of the NT.

Where in the Aberaham, Mosaic, and New Covenant is evidence of non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in these three Hebrew Covenants? The answer is there is none. Your inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles as part of God's redemption and saving of Abraham and his seed is unbiblical. God made no covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.

Reading over this chapter superficially (which is what most folks do most of the time, if truth was known) it might appear that a literal understanding of the physical nation of Israel is warranted, and that only 144,000 Jewish people are sealed or saved. However, when studied carefully, we find such an understanding is untenable. Considering not only the facts of the immediate context, but also as these things are studied in the light of related passages, this cannot be speaking of national Israel. Indeed, if we are to take this Israel as the literal nation, or of only physical Jews, then we must of necessity also take the number sealed as "literally" only 144,000 that will be secured or saved. But even the staunchest advocates of a totally literal exegesis will generally not accept such a conclusion. i.e., they once again violate their own rules when it contradicts their theories, and will find ways to get around them.

Genesis (written by Moses) to Revelation are writings by Hebrews to and for Hebrews as it is historical record of God and the Hebrew people through Abraham (who is descendant of Eber of whom the Hebrews get their Hebrew identity.) Revelation must be interpreted by the Hebrew writings that went before Revelation, including the spiritual identity of the 144,00.

Moreover, there are peculiarities with this list of tribes which also serve to illustrate that they are not to be taken literally. We are informed that they are sealed from "all" the tribes of Israel, but two of the literal tribes (Dan and Ephraim) are missing. This naturally brings up the question, "..what all Israel?" The consistent and round number of exactly 12,000 people from each of the tribes, is another clue that we should not take this literally. If there are literally only 12,000 saved from each tribe of Israel, it is a minuscule number. And if it is not to be taken literally, then it is inconsistent to take the number of the tribes, or the nation Israel as literal.

The number is not physical but a spiritual representation which will be revealed, as Daniel closed the book, later in Israel's future.

Moreover, Levi is listed here when it is not normally listed in the tribes of Israel. And the tribe of Joseph, through Manasseh, is listed twice. These are just a few of the oddities which would alert any prudent student of sound hermeneutics, that this is not to be taken as a literal narrative. And this is not even taking into consideration that all throughout the chapters of Revelation we see events pictured symbolically, and what is clearly figurative language, rather than a literal straight forward history. And we will see the reasons for this unfold vividly as we search through these verses, illuminating their spiritual truth in the light of the rest of scripture.

Without spending much time now, look at this scriptures and it will clearly tell us who are the twelve tribes of Israel, and they are not limited to the natural seed of Abraham, not even close.

Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken." Thus, any interpretation that does not find its understanding in Hebrew Scripture is false and should be rejected - including the false belief of non-Hebrew Gentiles included in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New.)

Revelation 7:9​

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”

As usual Jeremiah, your understanding is blinded by your overly strong love for the natural seed of Abraham, when even in the OT, only a few of them were part of the children of God's promises, and in the NT, even less ~ and we will add, there is not a single promise for them now that God has not fulfilled.

Do not forget that God Himself and for His purpose scattered the Hebrew people among the non-Hebrew Gentiles four times in their history. First, the Assyrian conquest and exile of the ten northern tribes of Isreal. Second, the Babylonian conquest and exile of the two southern kingdom tribes called Judah (and Benjamin.) Third, was the Roman conquest and exile in AD 70 culminating with the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple thus ending for the time being the Jewish religion of Moses. Fourth, was by Nazi Germany of the 1930s primarily. A decade later in 1948 the Jews declared their independence and took control of Israel proper. They became a state/nation and joined the UN and from that date Jews have been returning to their ancient homeland. Thus, God is calling them OUT OF these Gentile nations. There would also be a great number of mixed-heritage Hebrews just as Samaritans were.

Jesus' people are from every nation under heaven~not just the natural seed of Abraham, even in the OT, there were Gentiles that were children of faith, even more so than what was found in Israel, do I need to prove this. Time would fail me, to mention all of Rahab was a Canaanite woman ...even in Jesus' genealogy there was Ruth, from Moab, not a Jew btw. Remember when Jesus spoke these words: , Jesus says, "I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!" In both Matthew 8:10 and Luke 7:9, Jesus says these words to express amazement at the faith of a Roman centurion and a Gentile, respectively,

The Roman centurion would have been a mixed heritage Hebrew since the Abraham Covenant is with Abraham and his seed (Gen. 17:6-7.) Scripture cannot be broken.

Not for Jews only ~ Listen carefully to Paul who was indeed a Jews by nature:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Romans 9:24​

“Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

Mixed heritage Hebrews who grew up in Gentile lands since 722 BC (many generations) were called "Samaritan" and not "Jew" the same attitude that mixed heritage Hebrews were called "Gentile" and not "Jew" by the Jews. Tell me...Samaritans were largely mixed heritage of the ten northern kingdom tribes, but where and what identity are the mixed heritage Hebrews of the two southern kingdom tribes called? They are the 15-20 generations that did not return with a "remnant" with Nehemiah but remained in Gentile lands. And it was 15-20 generations of Hebrews that mixed in with Gentiles, grew up as uncircumcised Gentiles and heavily influenced by Greek culture (Hellenized) for those 20 generations until Jesus appeared. Where are they identified in the NT? We know who the Samaritans were, but where are the two southern tribes identified in the NT?

Paul and the other apostles would say that you are believing in and proclaiming a lie.

The word of God is written to the children of God's oath and promises, not necessarily to all Jews without exception and not to all Gentiles without exception, but the holy scriptures are given unto God's children's of his promises and holy oath.

1st Corinthians 10:11​

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

What you should had written is this: "God himself WAS the Great Deliverer of his OT people, the Hebrews,"......which people only typified a great mystery hidden in the OT scriptures, that God's people are from every nation under heaven, that he is now gathering and preparing as a spiritual stones that are going to be the eternal tabernacle/city of the Most High, called the New Jerusalem.

Unless you can identify non-Hebrew Gentiles named or mentioned in the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New) as being in covenant with God then you can claim non-Hebrew Gentiles as being recipients of God's grace, but there are no such non-Hebrew Gentiles included in the Abraham Covenant or the Mosaic Covenant or the New Covenant. None. Therefore, until you can prove that non-Hebrew Gentiles are named or mentioned in the three Hebrew covenants then non-Hebrew Gentiles are outside the salvation covenant (Mosaic) with God. As part of my studies, I find no non-Hebrew Gentiles in any of the three Hebrew covenants. Do you?

 

[Red Baker]

A quick point RB...Elected certainly is in the bible. It could mean the nation of Israel through which God chose to reveal Himself. God ELECTED Israel to be His plan of Revelation.

@GodsGrace

Fran,

Israel (the children of God's promises among them ~ Romans 9:6,7) were chosen out of the world to be a peculiar people, to be holy here and happy hereafter; to enjoy communion with God in this life and that to come, as well as to serve and glorify him now and for evermore.

​

Deuteronomy 7:6-8​

“For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”

Here's the big difference: YOU understand elect to mean that God chose certain persons for salvation based on nothing at all except His good pleasure. IOW...you believe in UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. Man is elected based on nothing... God goes not allow man to know HOW he can be saved because it is up to God 100%... a person has no say in whether or not they want to spend eternity with God.

Yes, I do agree with what you saying, you have presented this truthfully. Election of grace is is based upon the will of God, apart from any consideration on man's apart....before any had done any good, or evil. Per Romans 9:11.

Let me add this. Peter said that we are elected according to the foreknowledge of God.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

God did not foresee that we would believer etc., and then elected us, that is nothing more than works, and gives election no meaning whatsoever from God's perspective.

God, whose knowledge of all things is infinite and eternal both ways ~ so, what God did foresee and knew perfectly was this: "that if he did not elect some, and ordain them to eternal life, then none would have ever been saved by their own power, if left to themselves, impossible." The same is true of angels, which there is also an election among them as with man. (see 1st Timothy 5:21) The devil was not part of the election among the angels, thereby he hates this blessed truth.

IS THIS A JUST GOD? No.

Fran, God's ways are equal, just and without sin ~ If all scriptures are understood properly,

All Other Christians understand election to be BASED ON SOMETHING. This would be CONDITIONAL ELECTION. Man is elected and is saved based on a certain criteria... based on SOMETHING.

Conditional election is a gospel preaching a work system, that makes little, if any emphasis, on what Jesus Christ did to secure eternal life for his people ~ Fran, it cannot be both, it is either, or, and it cannot be share, it is all of one or the other. You cannot preach/teach one, without destroying the very meaning and purpose of the other.

Romans 11:5,6​

“Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

If it is by grace, then works cannot at all be involved, for the definition of grace is unmerited favor. Paul had taught earlier in this section about Israel that God’s mercy was by His will only (9:15-16). If works were involved, then it could not be by grace, for the definition of grace excludes works. If anyone think the language here to be tautology or trite, they do not appreciate grace against works. It is not by works, earned wages, but Paul simply chose to proceed in his definitional argument. Their salvation, and our salvation, is not by works, but it is helpful to define and reject works. If it is by works, then grace cannot be involved, for the definition of work is to earn by debt. Works and grace are completely and entirely antithetical, as Paul had earlier taught (4:4). If grace were involved, then it could not be by works, for the definition of works excludes grace. Thus the apostle gives us one of the clearest examples of grace and works to found anywhere.

God desires for persons to be saved and let's persons KNOW HOW to become saved.

This can never be proven by scriptures if the true biblical, God given sense, is applied to them, I have already addressed 1st Timothy 2:5 above in this thread, and a few others, but you are welcome to provide any others you believe should be consider.

Regeneration is God's work alone apart from us, or any other means man may come up with. Peter was commanded by Christ to feed his lambs and sheep, period! John 21:15-17

Coming back....RB

 

[MTMattie]

I am posting this to no one specifically, except for possibly @Red Baker because as a free will believer this is where most of my beliefs lay.... because of the way I was raised, both by family teachings and church teachings...personally I would never have had doubts in Jesus and what He did for us, and this goes back to pre-grade school.​

​

I have bolded or color changed certain points for emphasis.​

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination? - Topical Studies

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though pre...

www.biblestudytools.com

What Does the Bible Really Say about Predestination?​

Clarence L. Haynes Jr.
Contributing Writer
UpdatedOctober 18, 2024

Throughout the history of the church, there has been debate about predestination. This doctrine of predestination, which is most often related to salvation, means that God in his ultimate sovereignty has predetermined certain individuals to receive salvation while condemning others. In considering this topic, how does the idea of predestination mesh with God’s sovereignty, man’s free will, and salvation?

There are two main camps in this debate which we will consider, along with some passages to contemplate regarding predestination.

Is Predestination a Biblical Teaching?​

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though predestination was not always connected to salvation.

Noah was a righteous man, and God chose him to build the ark and rescue his family while the rest of the world was destroyed. God chose Abraham and built a nation through his lineage. God also chose David while he was a young shepherd to be the king of Israel. This was also true of Moses, Gideon, Jonah, and many others.

Here are some verses that speak to predestination in the Old Testament:

“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6).

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5).

In the Old Testament, many were chosen to fulfill God’s will, which he had purposed in advance for them to complete. In the New Testament, predestination is primarily associated with salvation, which forces us to consider one of the most important questions in relationship to predestination.

Does Predestination Supersede Man’s Free Will?​

Belief in Jesus is critical to obtaining salvation; without belief in Jesus, no one can be saved. We also know that we come to this place of belief as God draws us to him. This means God plays a role in calling people to him and giving them the opportunity to put their trust and faith in him. However, belief is still a choice, so how does this align with the doctrine of predestination? If man’s eternal destiny is predetermined by God, then what role does belief even play if it will not change what God has already determined? The answer to this question depends on how you view predestination.

I mentioned earlier there are two major positions on predestination. One position is known as unconditional election, which means God chooses people by his will and human actions or decisions have nothing to do with it. This position is consistent with Calvinism. For those who hold this position, they may use verses like these to support it:

“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will” (Ephesians 1:4-5).

“In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Ephesians 1:11).

The other position states that God’s predestination is based on his foreknowledge. Since God is all-knowing, he knows in advance who will choose to receive Christ or reject him. Because he has this knowledge, then he will predestine those who he knows will choose him to an eternity in heaven and to hell for those who don’t. However, man still has the free will to make this decision. This is consistent with Arminianism. This verse in Romans seems to support this position.

“For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:29-30).

Why Is God’s Foreknowledge Important to Predestination?​

The passages in Romans reveals that God predestines those he knows will receive him. This brings his foreknowledge to the center of the conversation. I believe we should consider every mention of predestination in the Bible, with the acknowledgment that God already knows in advance who will receive Christ and choose the path of salvation, and who will reject it. You cannot have a conversation about predestination without recognizing this truth.


The reason God’s foreknowledge matters is that without it, predestination seems unjust because it removes man’s ability to choose and therefore takes away man’s free will. How can God judge you for rejecting Christ and his plan of salvation if you never had a choice in the matter? While no one is worthy of salvation, God has left the choice to receive and follow him up to us, which means we receive either eternal life or eternal condemnation, but we decide which one we want.

Romans 10:13 tells us that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. This means that everyone who looks to God for salvation will find it. The act of calling is a response to God drawing you, but you can still decide how you will respond to that call.

Freedom to Choose​

“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
This verse forces us to consider predestination from another perspective, one that I believe reinforces the idea that God does not supersede our ability to choose. The truth this verse tells us is God does not want anyone to perish because his desire is for everyone to come to repentance. If God wants everyone to come to repentance, then why not just predestine everyone to do that?

The only logical conclusion, in my opinion, is while he wants everyone to come to repentance, he does not force everyone to come to repentance. He allows us to choose if we will repent and if we will believe. As much as he loves mankind, he will not override man’s will and allows people the freedom to choose the direction they will walk in. This too has been consistent throughout Scripture.

“But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:15).

In God’s love and mercy, he will give you enough evidence to make that decision, but the decision you choose he will leave up to you.

Final Thought​

The debate and discussion about predestination will not end any time soon. Certainly, my one article will not solve this debate. So, what should be our focus: predestination or preaching?

Regardless of your position on predestination, we have a responsibility to share this gospel with other people. It’s not for us to determine who will believe and who won’t – we have no control over that. However, we can control whether we share this truth or not. Let’s focus on doing what God has called us to do and let him deal with everything else. Our job is to bring the good news, not figure out who will receive it.




“How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: ‘How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!’” (Romans 10:14-15).

 

[Red Baker]

Where in the Abraham, Mosaic, and New Covenant is evidence of non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in these three Hebrew Covenants? The answer is there is none. Your inclusion of non-Hebrew Gentiles as part of God's redemption and saving of Abraham and his seed is unbiblical. God made no covenant with any non-Hebrew Gentiles. None.

First, Genesis 12:1-3 is the New Covenant in germ form with an enlargement coming from David to Christ in the NT. To even think that no Gentiles are part of this covenant is only showing one's ignorance of the scriptures.

What does Abraham's name mean?

Genesis 17:5​

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

Not just of the Jews only! Besides, When was Abraham called the father of many nations, before there was ever a Jewish nation...There is nothing special about having Jewish blood flowing through one's veins as you believe the scriptures teach. Actually Jeremiah, Abraham is my father more than he is to those living in the middle east who reject Jesus Christ whom Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it.

Galatians 3:7-9​

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

You sir, not not know the scriptures concerning this truth. Mosaic covenant is Jewish ~ Genesis 12:1-3; and other revelation of THIS COVENANT includes all nations, Jews and Gentiles.

Let us take this to a thread where it belongs....it does not belong here. Thanks

 

[civic]

First, Genesis 12:1-3 is the New Covenant in germ form with an enlargement coming from David to Christ in the NT. To even think that no Gentiles are part of this covenant is only showing one's ignorance of the scriptures.

What does Abraham's name mean?

Genesis 17:5​

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

Not just of the Jews only! Besides, When was Abraham called the father of many nations, before there was ever a Jewish nation...There is nothing special about having Jewish blood flowing through one's veins as you believe the scriptures teach. Actually Jeremiah, Abraham is my father more than he is to those living in the middle east who reject Jesus Christ whom Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it.

Galatians 3:7-9​

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

You sir, not not know the scriptures concerning this truth. Mosaic covenant is Jewish ~ Genesis 12:1-3; and other revelation of THIS COVENANT includes all nations, Jews and Gentiles.

Let us take this to a thread where it belongs....it does not belong here. Thanks

Yes Abraham was a gentile.

Abraham was a Gentile who was chosen by God to be the ancestor of the Jewish people.

The term Jew is a shortened form of the word Judah, which was the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the tribe of David and of Jesus (Matthew 1:1). Judah was also the name of the southern half of the kingdom of Israel when it split into two parts (1 Kings 12), because it was dominated by the large tribe of Judah. The first time the word Jew is used in the Bible is during the exile (2 Kings 25:25), and may have been a term coined by the Babylonians or Persians to refer to the people in their midst who had come from the kingdom of Judah. By New Testament times, Jew was a common term, and it has remained in usage unto this day. Obviously, Abraham was never referred to by this term.

The term Gentile is simply from the Latin word for “nation.” When the term Gentiles is used in Scripture, it means “the nations.” If a person is a Gentile, he or she is a member of one of the many nations in the world. When Jew and Gentile are juxtaposed, the contrast is between one who is a member of God’s chosen nation and one who is a member of one of the hundreds of other nations or ethnic groups not chosen for special blessing in the way that Israel was. In this context, Gentile simply means “not Jewish.”

Abraham started out as a member of one of the many nations or ethnic groups that were in existence at the time. (Of course, these are somewhat artificial distinctions, because all people came from Adam and Eve, and all people are related if the genealogy is traced back far enough. However, after Babel, people started to segregate into smaller groups and develop into distinctive ethnic groups, clans, and nations.) Abraham was living in Ur of the Chaldeans. While he was there, God called him:

“The Lord had said to Abram, ‘Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’” (Genesis 12:1–3).

At that point, Abraham was called and set apart for God’s purposes. He left his native country and people behind. His descendants would become the great nation of Israel, God’s chosen people, but the line had not been narrowed down yet. Abraham had several sons: Isaac, by his wife Sarah; Ishmael, by a slave of Sarah; and other sons with another wife after Sarah died. However, it was only Isaac who was the chosen one. Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau, and only Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel) was the chosen one. All of Jacob’s 12 sons were included as patriarchs in the nation of Israel and became the basis for the 12 tribes. It was at this point that the line had been finally set; however, the wives of Jacob’s sons were still from outside the family.

With the next generation of Jacob’s grandchildren, the descendants of Jacob became a distinct people group, and they were distinguished from the Egyptians among whom they were living as having all descended from one man named Israel. By the time of Exodus 1, they were recognized as a distinct nation.

Technically, no one was called a “Jew” before the exile; however, the people who became known as Jews were a distinct ethnic group by the time of Exodus 1. They were a distinct clan by the time of Jacob and his sons. Abraham was a Gentile, that is, a member of one of the many nations that had developed by his time. The Jews came from Abraham because he was chosen by God from among the nations to be the origin of a new nation. The Jews of Jesus’ day looked to Abraham (not Jacob/Israel) as the head of their race (see Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8; John 8:39; Acts 13:26; Galatians 3:7). If one is thinking in these terms, it would not be wrong to think of Abraham as “the first Jew,” although that’s not technically correct.got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jim]

First, Genesis 12:1-3 is the New Covenant in germ form with an enlargement coming from David to Christ in the NT. To even think that no Gentiles are part of this covenant is only showing one's ignorance of the scriptures.

What does Abraham's name mean?

Genesis 17:5​

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

Not just of the Jews only! Besides, When was Abraham called the father of many nations, before there was ever a Jewish nation...There is nothing special about having Jewish blood flowing through one's veins as you believe the scriptures teach. Actually Jeremiah, Abraham is my father more than he is to those living in the middle east who reject Jesus Christ whom Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it.

Galatians 3:7-9​

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

You sir, not not know the scriptures concerning this truth. Mosaic covenant is Jewish ~ Genesis 12:1-3; and other revelation of THIS COVENANT includes all nations, Jews and Gentiles.

Let us take this to a thread where it belongs....it does not belong here. Thanks

It seems pretty obvious that @jeremiah1five does not consider the NT to be scripture.

 

[Red Baker]

Is Predestination a Biblical Teaching?​

We must first establish that predestination is a Biblical doctrine. Though many think of it as a New Testament teaching, there is evidence of it in the Old Testament as well. In the Old Testament, God chose people for his specific purpose, even though predestination was not always connected to salvation.

@MTMattie

Well, not easy to determine where to start and just how needs to be said to keep this post relatively short. So, here we go.

You do should know that election of grace, and predestination are two separate doctrines, even though many people speak of them as one doctrine, but they are not. But, where there is an election of God's grace, then God does indeed predestinate many factors concerning the life of his people whom he has chosen. Much he has chosen for us that He never consulted us about ~ our nation which we were born into, our parents, our genetic makeup, intelligent, siblings, and everything else you can think of, most was chosen for us by our God. This is God's predestination at work, the same is true of our Lord ~ his parents, them being poor, the vocation Joseph engage in, on and on we could go, this is God's predestination at work, not his election of grace.

There is not a single book in the Word of God where election is not either expressly stated, strikingly illustrated, or clearly implied ~ if Election of grace is there so is God's predestination. Genesis is full of it: the difference which the Lord made between Nahor and Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac, and His loving Jacob and hating Esau are cases to the point. In Exodus we behold the distinction made by God between the Egyptians and the Hebrews. In Leviticus the atonement and all the sacrifices were for the people of God, nor were they bidden to go and “offer” them to the surrounding heathen. In Numbers Jehovah used a Balaam to herald the fact that Israel were “the people” who “shall dwell alone, and shall not be numbered among the nations” (23:9); and therefore was he constrained to cry “How goodly are thy tents, O Jacob, and thy tabernacles, 0 Israel” (24:5). In Deuteronomy it is recorded “The Lord’s portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance” (32:9).

In Joshua we behold the discriminating mercy of the Lord bestowed upon Rahab the harlot, while the whole of her city was doomed to destruction. In Judges the sovereignty of God appears in the unlikely instruments selected, by which He wrought victory for Israel: Deborah, Gideon, Samson. In Ruth we have Orpah kissing her mother-in-law and returning to her gods, whereas Ruth cleaves to her and obtained inheritance in Israel—who made them to differ? In 1st Samuel David is chosen for the throne, preferred to his older brethren. In 2 Samuel we learn of the everlasting covenant “ordered in all things, and sure” (23:5). In 1st Kings Elijah becomes a blessing to a single widow selected from many; while in 2 Kings Naaman alone, of all the lepers, was cleansed. In 1st Chronicles it is written “Ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones” (16:13); while in 2nd Chronicles we are made to marvel at the grace of God bestowing repentance upon Manasseh.


And so we might go on. The Psalms, Prophets, Gospels and Epistles are so full of this doctrine that he may run that readeth it. (Habakkuk 2:2]

Does Predestination Supersede Man’s Free Will?

The writer should be asking does selection of grace supersede man's free will? God's election of grace does not even take man's will into the equation, no more than did it take the elect angels over the non-elect angels. I dealt with this above already when I explained 1st Peter 1:2. concerning God's foreknowledge of him knowing the end from the beginning and he knew that unless he had an election of grace , then NO ONE would have ever inherited eternal life on their own power, impossible. So, election was before any had done any good or evil ~ and since God was not under obligation to do this or that, he did all things after the council of his own will, which is the most righteous way of doing things. I do not have a problem with this, do you?

Before leaving this, I will only say, there is not such things as a free will of man toward righteousness, impossible.

The other position states that God’s predestination is based on his foreknowledge.

He's confusing election of grace with predestination. But, I would agree that both are, yet different than what he believes.

The reason God’s foreknowledge matters is that without it, predestination seems unjust because it removes man’s ability to choose and therefore takes away man’s free will. How can God judge you for rejecting Christ and his plan of salvation if you never had a choice in the matter? While no one is worthy of salvation, God has left the choice to receive and follow him up to us, which means we receive either eternal life or eternal condemnation, but we decide which one we want.

I removed the highlights so I could make my comments on his thoughts. with my own highlights.

This man has his own gospel that he has received from others that seems more in line with the god he has created in his own heart of what he would do if he was God!

All men had a perfect opportunity in Adam as their representative/head before the law of God. Adam was free of sin being in his members, yet no man since Adam (with the exception of Christ) is free form indwelling sin. Every man since Adam are in bondage to sin and the devil their new master. Everyman in his nature state is incapable of choosing and doing spiritual acts pleasing to God.

Enough said for now.

 

[jeremiah1five]

First, Genesis 12:1-3 is the New Covenant in germ form with an enlargement coming from David to Christ in the NT. To even think that no Gentiles are part of this covenant is only showing one's ignorance of the scriptures.

What does Abraham's name mean?

Genesis 17:5​

“Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

First, the word "nations" does not mean Gentiles. For it is also used of Sarah in Gen. 17. So, tell me, how can "nations/Gentiles" be born from two Hebrew parents? They can't. Biologically impossible. It refers to the descendants that are Abraham's seed through Ishmael and Esau. It is also used in this way: Nation of Israel. Does this mean Israel is Gentile? No, it doesn't. Nor does it mean Gentile at the time it is used of Abraham and Sarah, two Hebrew parents who can only birth Hebrew children.

Not just of the Jews only! Besides, When was Abraham called the father of many nations, before there was ever a Jewish nation...There is nothing special about having Jewish blood flowing through one's veins as you believe the scriptures teach. Actually Jeremiah, Abraham is my father more than he is to those living in the middle east who reject Jesus Christ whom Abraham rejoice to see his day and saw it.

So, which tribe were you born from?

Galatians 3:7-9​

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached

Saul is writing to Jews and Jewish Christians. The whole of New Covenant writings is written by God to His covenant people the Jews.
You still have not proved any non-Hebrew Gentiles are in any of the three Hebrew covenants. Using "nations" as referring to Gentiles does not cover it. It must name them as Gentiles not use a neutral word which was used of Sarah as well. How can non-Hebrew Gentiles be born from two Hebrew parents? That's IMPOSSIBLE. God made no covenant with Gentiles. That's the bottom line.

before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

You sir, not not know the scriptures concerning this truth. Mosaic covenant is Jewish ~ Genesis 12:1-3; and other revelation of THIS COVENANT includes all nations, Jews and Gentiles.

Let us take this to a thread where it belongs....it does not belong here. Thanks

The three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New) follow a reasonable and consistent line. Each build upon the preceding covenant that went before it. And each are distinctly made between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed. Jeremiah's prophecy of a New Covenant names ONLY the House of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes) and Judah (two southern kingdom tribes) and there is no mention of Gentiles. Thus, according to the Scripture Gentiles are NOT in this covenant, a covenant sealed in the blood of the Savior and King of Israel - Jesus Christ. You are holding to a false Constantinian Gentile theology. It is a theology that is unmoored from true, biblical Christianity of the Hebrew people. It began with Abraham and then passed to his Hebrew child, Isaac, and from Isaac to Jacob (bypassing Esau), and ending with the Houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah.) Jesus the Messiah was prophesied and Promised to Israel - NOT to Gentiles.
Jesus the Messiah came to Israel and not to Gentiles, to the lost sheep of the House of Israel NOT to the lost goats of the house of Gentiles.
Jesus died fulfilling the Law and the Law mandated a sacrifice for sin be made for the children of Israel and Jesus fulfilled that. The high priest performed the sacrifice, and the blood was sprinkled upon the Hebrew people, NOT Gentiles. Nor did the high priest leave Israel and go to the Gentile nations and pray for nor offer sacrifices for Gentiles. Jesus said at the last Passover that His body and blood were "given for YOU" (twelve Hebrew men representing the twelve Hebrew sons/tribes of Jacob/Israel - NOT Gentiles.

Post the Scripture of God making covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles (if you can find one.) I am still waiting for Scripture to support your beliefs. If there is no Scripture, then upon what are you believing? Only a phantom covenant and unscriptural interpretations which if actually were true would "break" Scripture - something Jesus said cannot be done. Impossible.

 

[Johann]

This man has his own gospel that he has received from others that seems more in line with the god he has created in his own heart of what he would do if he was God!

All men had a perfect opportunity in Adam as their representative/head before the law of God. Adam was free of sin being in his members, yet no man since Adam (with the exception of Christ) is free form indwelling sin. Every man since Adam are in bondage to sin and the devil their new master. Everyman in his nature state is incapable of choosing and doing spiritual acts pleasing to God.

Did All Men Have a "Perfect Opportunity in Adam"?

The idea that all people had a “perfect opportunity” in Adam assumes a kind of strict federal headship—meaning Adam acted as our representative in a way that completely determined our fate. While it's true that Adam's sin affected all humanity (Romans 5:12), we must be careful not to overstate its implications.

Ezekiel 18:20 is clear: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son.”

If we inherited Adam’s guilt in a way that makes us personally incapable of responding to God, why does Ezekiel emphasize individual responsibility?

This suggests that while Adam’s sin impacted the world, it does not mean every individual is automatically unable to respond to God’s call.
Romans 5:12-21 speaks about Adam’s sin affecting all, but also contrasts that with Christ’s work:

“For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.” (Romans 5:19)

If Adam’s sin makes all people hopelessly incapable of choosing God, then shouldn’t Christ’s act automatically make all people righteous?

Paul’s argument is one of parallelism: just as Adam’s sin introduced death into the world, Christ’s work brings life—but the reception of that life requires a response (faith, as Romans 10:9-10 makes clear).

So, while Adam's fall introduced sin into the world, that doesn’t mean every individual is completely incapable of responding to God. The Bible still presents people as responsible for their own sin and choices.

2. Are People Completely Incapable of Choosing God?
The claim is that every person is in total bondage to sin and Satan, making them incapable of choosing God. But Scripture paints a more nuanced picture.

(A) The Bible Commands People to Seek God
Deuteronomy 30:19 – “I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.”

Why would God command people to choose life if they were literally incapable of doing so?

Isaiah 55:6 – “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near.”

If humans were so bound in sin that they couldn’t respond, what would be the point of this command?

Acts 17:30 – “The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.”

God commands all people to repent. If they were utterly incapable of responding without first being regenerated, would this command even make sense?

(B) The Work of the Holy Spirit Enables, But Doesn't Override Free Will

John 1:9 – “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.”

This suggests that Christ’s light is available to everyone, not just a select group. There is some level of illumination given to all.

John 16:8 – “And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.”

The Spirit convicts the world, meaning all people, not just the elect. This conviction implies that people have a choice in how they respond.
So, while sin has certainly affected humanity, Scripture consistently shows that God calls, convicts, and expects a response from people.

Nowhere does it say that a person must be regenerated before they can believe.

3. Is This "Another Gospel"?

The accusation here is that rejecting total inability and unconditional election is a rejection of the gospel itself. But the biblical gospel is not about philosophical determinism—it’s about Christ’s work and our response to it.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 defines the gospel: Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again—this is the good news.

John 3:16 – The promise is “whoever believes”, not "whoever is first regenerated and then believes."

Acts 16:30-31 – When the Philippian jailer asks, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul’s response is “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”—not "First be regenerated, then you’ll be able to believe."

The real danger is when someone adds extra conditions to salvation, such as claiming that a person must be regenerated before they can have faith. Scripture presents faith as a response, not something that is impossible unless a person has already been saved first.

Final Thoughts

Adam’s sin affected all of humanity, but the Bible still upholds personal responsibility (Ezekiel 18:20).

People are affected by sin, but God calls all to repent, and the Holy Spirit convicts the world (Acts 17:30, John 16:8).

The gospel is centered on Christ’s work and faith in Him, not a rigid theological system of determinism (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The idea that people are totally unable to seek God without first being regenerated is not an explicit teaching of Scripture. Instead, the Bible presents a God who calls, convicts, and expects people to respond.

J.