Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[GodsGrace]

I simply do not understand why everyone does not see this.

Simplicity at its finest.

I'll tell you why it's not simple for some.
Because they go to a church that INDOCTRINATES them.
It's like a cult.
It's heretical and teaches OUTSIDE of what Christianity teaches.
It teaches the commandments of John Calvin and not the Commandments of God (teachings).

In some churches it begins slowly...it could take 2 or 3 years.
Before you know it,,,,the verses are understood as Calvin taught and as TULIP teaches.

We need to be strong in our Christianity and DEBUNK Calvinism at every turn.
IT IS NOT THE GOSPEL.

Galatians 1:6-8
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting * Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only * there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Calvinism is a different gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, Fran, you did and still are giving your personal opinions, but proving this is a task that only God can show you, if he wills to do so, my powers are very limited, all I can do is put forth the truth, which I have done and will continue to do so. There's nothing new under the sun.

"What YOU have to do is pick 2 or 3 of them out and show us here HOW they are referring to saved person."

Fran, at least be honest, I started with the first one, that you put forth, and went in order until I had to leave for other obligations, but plan on finishing each and everyone, no problem whatsoever in doing so.

"AGAIN for the THIRD TIME: A saved person does not need to seek God.. he has ALREADY FOUND GOD."

I'm not finished in addressing this very easy and shallow point, and shallow it is. Please clam down and I will address everything, you truly do not know who you are posting to, but will find out very soon, that I'm a man of my word, this does not mean I may not miss something, of course I may, but never on purpose, but one thing I will do is be honest and address points presented and give some some from scriptures in doing so.

This is the next one in order that you provided. I'll come back and pick up here. I try hard to stay away from long posts, since most folks, complain about them being long, if you desire long ones, then tell me and I 'll do what you desire when posting to you...let me know.

I don't see any scripture.
I'm only responding to scripture.

I'm VERY CALM RB....
what makes you think I'm not??

Wanna have a cappuccio?



And yes,,,your long posts chock full of YOUR opinions are not appreciated.
We have the bible which God gave to us so we could know what HE expects from us
and which teaches us how to be with him forever.

We need to post scripture and discuss scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

I address this below, I desire for you and anyone else to address my comments below. I'm not interesting what ALL denominations believe and teach no more than Christ was concerning the cults of his day and truly, neither should you be. Who ready cares what the majority teach ~ the early church was without question in the minority and always have been since and in the latter days of the last days, it will get smaller and smaller and smaller, much like Noah's day!

Luke 18:7,8​

“And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Please address:

Could you cut the above down to 25 words or less?
And what does Luke 18:7,8 have to do with anything?
You should learn how to use scripture better....it's an art.

 

[GodsGrace]

So after 4000+ years of existence when God had Jesus be born to Mary, and ultimately crucified some 30 to 33 years later.....

First Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then Jesus made the statement in Matt 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The Gentiles were not to be approached. They basically were to be shunned.

The Gentiles seemingly were not initially included and not until we learn they were grafted into the "olive tree" did they have a chance of acceptance and salvation.

While it is true that the Gentiles may have been originally in the plans of salvation from the beginning, Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel giving them a second chance of Redemption, it seems odd that Paul would have said in Romans 11:11 "11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."

I'll stop because I see things in the written word that you do not.

And leave saying IMO if predestination... with or without Calvin. Withe or without Tulip is accurate, I see it as being meant for His chosen...His initial chosen... Israel, (Just remember the inportance that was placed on Jesus lineage back to David that they actually could trace not just Mary back there but also a way for Joseph too.... So there could be no mistake.

The above is correct.
The ELECT spoken of in the OT is, indeed, Israel.
God ELECTED His plan of salvation to be disseminated by the Hebrew/Israeli/Jewish people.
So Israel is indeed His ELECTED nation - and its people.

The ELECT will also include all those that accept Jesus as their savior....
we are part of God's Church....His Body.

HOW we become elect is the question at hand.
Does God choose who will be saved---elected in that sense?
NO: There is no scripture that states this.

And the NT does speak of predestination...
but always in reference to HOW/METHOD or for WHY/PURPOSE.
NEVER as to WHO will be saved....
God wishes that all men be saved.
If HE is picking out the saved...then all of what Paul taught is for naught. Has no purpose whatsoever....

As much as I would take great comfort in the belief of predestination.... in no way do I see that applying to us, the way you do.

Have a great Saturday and weekend.

 

[Red Baker]

Calvinism is a different gospel.

I did not start out believing in any points of Calvinism and still disagree on some which I have posted on this forum. I started out in the IBM (Independent Baptist Movement) a Fundamentalist group among the Baptist. I went to their bible college for a short period of time and it was there that I found a book by A. W. Pink that got me thinking, and causing me to study and searching to know the truth, Below are some quote by C.H. Spurgeon and a few others.

"It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).

I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130).

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124).

Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298).

We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

A.W. Pink​

“When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this “foreknowledge” is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.”

Thomas Watson​

“God’s decrees are the very foundation of free-will; for He decreed what man’s will should be.”

Isaac Watts​

“Salvation is all of grace, and that grace is sovereign, discriminating, and distinguishing.”

John Bunyan​

“The doctrine of predestination and the doctrine of free will are not contrary to one another, but are perfectly consistent.”

John Newton​

“The doctrine of election is a very humbling truth, but it is a very sweet one to those who have been made to taste that the Lord is gracious.”

Martin Luther​

“God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”

John Flavel​

“God hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Jonathan Edwards​

“God decrees all things that come to pass, so that there is a necessary connection between the decree and the event decreed; God decrees things in such a manner, that He is the sovereign Disposer and Orderer of all events; but yet so that the contingency of events remains; and that there is a real liberty of second causes. God decrees the manner of events, the time, place, and circumstances; but yet so that the events themselves are contingent, and free actions are not necessitated by anything going before, either in God or the creature.”

John Owen​

“The Arminians hold that Christ died equally and indifferently for all men. We affirm that Christ died for all and only the elect. If He died for all, and yet all are not saved, then His death is not efficacious. But if He died for the elect, then His death is effectual for their salvation.”

 

[Jim]

The Calvinist definition and concept of predestination is a slap in the face to God. For what obviously stands out is not the few who were saved but the mass of humanity which He has, by that definition and concept of predestination, gloried in their assignment to hell.

And by the way, there is no way, in the Calvinist doctrine, to ever know for sure that the Calvinist is not one of those God is so pleased to shovel off to the fires of hell.

John Owen​

“The Arminians hold that Christ died equally and indifferently for all men. We affirm that Christ died for all and only the elect. If He died for all, and yet all are not saved, then His death is not efficacious. But if He died for the elect, then His death is effectual for their salvation.”

If that is the case then the efficacy of Jesus death is puny compared to the efficacy of Adam's sin. In which case, Calvinism declares that God has lost His fight with Satan, Satan being far more efficacious.

 

[Red Baker]

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

@GodsGrace

Here's the next one in order that you presented for my consideration.

Fran, truly these precious words are an encouragement for God's children ~ to whom the word of God was written for.........

1st Corinthians 10:11​

“Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.”

.......that if we seek God with all of our hearts, then and only then will we find him. Fran, the wicked do not even like to retain God in their thoughts, their hearts are full of this present world and things therein, to believe otherwise, is to go against God's testimony of the wicked. Actually Fran, even God's own children must work against the flesh, the world and the devil, to overcome the lust that dwells within us, (if we are honest) to seek God with all of our hearts, it is a constant battle with our flesh, even among God's best best. Just ask David when you see him. He would have been tempted to sit with you and have a cup of cappuccio, looking at your picture!

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Fran see comments above, they would apply here as well.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Fran, you got to do better than this, by just posting scriptures that show folks seeking God, cannot be used to prove that sinners who are at enmity against God can or would even desire to do what only God's children can do, and even then very seldom do so with all of their being, (if we are honest) which speak as to our weakness and shame, so much more so than proving sinners with depraved hearts can!

Notice what Davis said: "those who know your name put their trust in you" These are the only ones that do and can seek God. Fran, you have too many holes in your doctrine trying to prove that sinner with deprave hearts do and can seek God, how wicked and foolish to believe in such a lie. Such people like you are living under a very strong delusion.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Again, Fran why would you even think sinners are able to seek God in all sincerity, when one first must have faith to do so, and if one has faith, then that person is a child of God, per so many scriptures? At least this is exactly what Jesus said to Nicodemus:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If born again, then he does see, then that person goes to the only source where he knows he can get help to have his petitions answer! Fran, it is not that deep and hard to see, IF one's eyes have been opened by the Spirit of the Living God.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Sorry, I have an appointment, but shall return later on today, and finish........... actually looking forward to do.

 

[dwight92070]

I did not start out believing in any points of Calvinism and still disagree on some which I have posted on this forum. I started out in the IBM (Independent Baptist Movement) a Fundamentalist group among the Baptist. I went to their bible college for a short period of time and it was there that I found a book by A. W. Pink that got me thinking, and causing me to study and searching to know the truth, Below are some quote by C.H. Spurgeon and a few others.

"It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).

I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130).

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul - when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124).

Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298).

We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

A.W. Pink​

“When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this “foreknowledge” is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.”

Thomas Watson​

“God’s decrees are the very foundation of free-will; for He decreed what man’s will should be.”

Isaac Watts​

“Salvation is all of grace, and that grace is sovereign, discriminating, and distinguishing.”

John Bunyan​

“The doctrine of predestination and the doctrine of free will are not contrary to one another, but are perfectly consistent.”

John Newton​

“The doctrine of election is a very humbling truth, but it is a very sweet one to those who have been made to taste that the Lord is gracious.”

Martin Luther​

“God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”

John Flavel​

“God hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Jonathan Edwards​

“God decrees all things that come to pass, so that there is a necessary connection between the decree and the event decreed; God decrees things in such a manner, that He is the sovereign Disposer and Orderer of all events; but yet so that the contingency of events remains; and that there is a real liberty of second causes. God decrees the manner of events, the time, place, and circumstances; but yet so that the events themselves are contingent, and free actions are not necessitated by anything going before, either in God or the creature.”

John Owen​

“The Arminians hold that Christ died equally and indifferently for all men. We affirm that Christ died for all and only the elect. If He died for all, and yet all are not saved, then His death is not efficacious. But if He died for the elect, then His death is effectual for their salvation.”

John Flavel​

“God hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

That is one very confused man, but then all who believe what he does are also confused. Calvinism is extremely confusing, because it is False. We don't see Jesus or any other New Testament author speaking like this at all.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did not start out believing in any points of Calvinism and still disagree on some which I have posted on this forum. I started out in the IBM (Independent Baptist Movement) a Fundamentalist group among the Baptist. I went to their bible college for a short period of time and it was there that I found a book by A. W. Pink that got me thinking, and causing me to study and searching to know the truth, Below are some quote by C.H. Spurgeon and a few others.

"It is no novelty, then, that I am preaching; no new doctrine. I love to proclaim these strong old doctrines that are called by nickname Calvinism, but which are truly and verily the revealed truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus. By this truth I make my pilgrimage into the past, and as I go, I see father after father, confessor after confessor, martyr after martyr, standing up to shake hands with me . . . Taking these things to be the standard of my faith, I see the land of the ancients peopled with my brethren; I behold multitudes who confess the same as I do, and acknowledge that this is the religion of God's own church. (Spurgeon's Sovereign Grace Sermons, Still Waters Revival Books, p. 170).

I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross. (Charles Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).

Could I suggest something that would make reading your posts easier?
Sometimes it's difficult to know what others stated and you're posting from
what YOU are stating. Maybe bolding...maybe a different color. Just an idea.

I don't know what Spurgeon meant by THESE OLD DOCTRINES.
Calvinism NEW...it is not old.
By old I mean the early church...not something that came about 500 years ago.

... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that he is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men. (C.H. Spurgeon from the sermon "Free Will A Slave", 1855).

You must first deny the authenticity and full inspiration of the Holy Scripture before you can legitimately and truly deny election. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p.130).

When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me.

The Lord WAS seeking you....
Difference is: God is seeking everyone.

I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul -

Depends on the person...
Most DO know that they have accepted God because it's a free will choice of theirs.

when they were as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron; and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown all of a sudden from a babe into a man - that I had made progress in scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God ... I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, I ascribe my change wholly to God. (Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography: 1, The Early Years, Banner of Truth, pp. 164-165).

George Whitefield said, "We are all born Arminians." It is grace that turns us into Calvinists. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 2, p. 124).

Grace is for everyone RB....not just Calvinists.
Do you realize how arrogant that sounds?

Calvinism did not spring from Calvin. We believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 7, p. 298).

So who is the great founder of all truth?
Jesus?
Quote some scripture.

We declare on scriptural authority that the human will is so desperately set on mischief, so depraved, so inclined to everything that is evil, and so disinclined to everything that is good, that without the powerful, supernatural, irresistible influence of the Holy Spirit, no human will ever be constrained toward Christ. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 4, p.139).

I do not come into this pulpit hoping that perhaps somebody will of his own free will return to Christ. My hope lies in another quarter. I hope that my Master will lay hold of some of them and say, "You are mine, and you shall be mine. I claim you for myself." My hope arises from the freeness of grace, and not from the freedom of the will.

I believe that Christ came into the world not to put men into a salvable state, but into a saved state. Not to put them where they could save themselves, but to do the work in them and for them, from first to last. If I did not believe that there was might going forth with the word of Jesus which makes men willing, and which turns them from the error of their ways by the mighty, overwhelming, constraining force of divine influence, I should cease to glory in the cross of Christ. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 3, p. 34).

A man is not saved against his will, but he is made willing by the operation of the Holy Ghost. A mighty grace which he does not wish to resist enters into the man, disarms him, makes a new creature of him, and he is saved. (C.H. Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 10, p. 309).

I question whether we have preached the whole counsel of God, unless predestination with all its solemnity and sureness be continually declared. (Charles Spurgeon, Sermons, Vol. 6, p. 26).

A.W. Pink​

“When the solemn and blessed subject of Divine foreordination is expounded, when God’s eternal choice of certain ones to be conformed to the image of His Son is set forth, the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this “foreknowledge” is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong. It repudiates the truth of total depravity, for it argues that there is something good in some men It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.”

Thomas Watson​

“God’s decrees are the very foundation of free-will; for He decreed what man’s will should be.”

Isaac Watts​

“Salvation is all of grace, and that grace is sovereign, discriminating, and distinguishing.”

John Bunyan​

“The doctrine of predestination and the doctrine of free will are not contrary to one another, but are perfectly consistent.”

John Newton​

“The doctrine of election is a very humbling truth, but it is a very sweet one to those who have been made to taste that the Lord is gracious.”

Martin Luther​

“God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly.”

John Flavel​

“God hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Jonathan Edwards​

“God decrees all things that come to pass, so that there is a necessary connection between the decree and the event decreed; God decrees things in such a manner, that He is the sovereign Disposer and Orderer of all events; but yet so that the contingency of events remains; and that there is a real liberty of second causes. God decrees the manner of events, the time, place, and circumstances; but yet so that the events themselves are contingent, and free actions are not necessitated by anything going before, either in God or the creature.”

John Owen​

“The Arminians hold that Christ died equally and indifferently for all men. We affirm that Christ died for all and only the elect. If He died for all, and yet all are not saved, then His death is not efficacious. But if He died for the elect, then His death is effectual for their salvation.”

OK. I stopped at Spurgeon.
But you didn't quote my favorite Calvinist....RC

You just CANNOT respond to scripture RB!
It's beginning to amuse me.

You go off on wild tangents.
Why would you post stuff that Calvinists wrote?
Do you not like the bible?

Anyway,,,let me go.
It's warming up here and spring has sprung.
The winters are pretty temperate.
I love everybody....
but I really dislike reformed theology.

Want to know why?
It CHANGES THE CHARAGER OF GOD.
I'd go so far as to say it's blasphemous.
Maybe some day you'll ask why.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Who was the Book of John Addressed to?​

ME, of course, and to you also. ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of the Hol;y Spirit for guidance and presentation of the TRUTH.

Simple as that

 

[Red Baker]

Could I suggest something that would make reading your posts easier? Sometimes it's difficult to know what others stated and you're posting from what YOU are stating. Maybe bolding...maybe a different color. Just an idea.

@GodsGrace

Sorry, I went back and read the post again, I see what you meant, thanks for the reminder. Generally I do better, but I'm still recovering my power to think and reason and to post convincingly after being very sick for three weeks and still not 100% there ~ truly, I'm pushing myself to even make a few posts these last few days.

I don't know what Spurgeon meant by THESE OLD DOCTRINES. Calvinism NEW...it is not old. By old I mean the early church...not something that came about 500 years ago.

Fran, There were many who taught God's election of grace way before Calvin did in the in mid 1500's. Luther did and he was a few short years before Calvin and preach during Calvin's time, even though they never met. Augustine taught predestination, not sola fide (as Luther conceded). Even Aquinas taught hard-core predestination. As did Anselm, Gottesdalk, and others. John Wycliffe (d. 1384), who in many ways was the “Morning Star of the Reformation” in England. Read his thoughts on Election. The Bohemian Reformer Jan Hus (d. 1415) agreed with Wycliffe: the church was composed of those predestined in Christ. Fran, have you ever heard of the Waldenses? (1000 A.D.) They were known for their ascetic lifestyle and rejection of some Catholic teachings. The Waldenses are considered to be one of the first Protestant movements. They taught unconditional election. So, Spurgeon, (though by no means is he one of my personal favorites, yet, he used a lot of flowery speech, which truly was his main gift not so much his teaching ability, which was lacking for sure) I he believe meant these which I just mentioned. Calvin is the man that systemized much of what the church taught back then in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin's masterpiece, a summary of biblical theology that became the normative statement of the Reformed faith.....(though I'm not of that community of believers, since we line up with the Particular Baptist that never were never part of Rome and even Calvin and others war against, called by some Anabaptist, but since I was not there, I'm not s sure exactly what to believe, other than we were not part of Rome or, the Reformers, even though we have great respect for them for the Reformers and their lo9ve for God and the scriptures) It was first published in 1536 and was revised and enlarged by Calvin in several editions before the definitive edition was published in 1559. What is so amazing concerning this work, is that Calvin wrote this at a very young age of twenty seven.

Difference is: God is seeking everyone.

Fran, that has never been the case, no, never!

I could send much time here, but will only say a few words. When Jesus was on the earth, He sought out God's very elect, and to them he went.

Luke 19:1-10~"And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho. And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich. And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature. And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way. And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully. And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, That he was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner. And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

Jesus went by many just to get to Zacchaeus, and the scriptures tells us why..."forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham"...Fran, there were many natural sons of Abraham that Jesus went right by in order to get to a spiritual son of Abraham, a son of God's promises! Now, ask yourself why is this in our bibles? To ground us in this blessed truth that everyone of God's elect shall be found and brought into the sheep fold by the Good Sheppard of the sheep! They a e indeed made willing in the day of God's power.

Psalms 110:3​

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.”

Most DO know that they have accepted God because it's a free will choice of theirs.

All of God's children know the day of their conversion, but not the day when they were regenerated ~ two separate doctrines altogether. If you disagree then let us go to John 3 and take a look. No problem. Regeneration take place in our subconscious part of us, a work by the Spirit of God where He alone is the only active person working, for man is dead in trespasses and sins and must be given life before he can do spiritual acts pleasing to God. One is born of God/Spirit, our flesh and the will of another person has not one thing to do with a sinner being born of God, not one things, per John 1:13.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Grace is for everyone RB....not just Calvinists.
Do you realize how arrogant that sounds?

I agree not just for Calvinist, never said it was, it is for God's elect!

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Not one more, and certainly not one less!

You just CANNOT respond to scripture RB!

Fran, you pick any scripture and I will respond, but I'm only going to do so, if you respond as well, so far I ask you two to three times to address
#200.......... there's more, but start with that one, since it is very critical in understanding how one is saved from sin and condemnation.

 

[ProDeo]

Fran, that has never been the case, no, never!

GG said - Difference is: God is seeking everyone.

GG is right -

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

 

[Jim]

Fran, you pick any scripture and I will respond, but I'm only going to do so, if you respond as well, so far I ask you two to three times to address
#200.......... there's more, but start with that one, since it is very critical in understanding how one is saved from sin and condemnation.

Red, your definition and concept of faith as you posted in post #200 is totally false. As I have noted before, given that Hebrews 11 is sometimes known as the faith chapter of the Bible, it is important to note that of all the examples presented for extraordinary faith there is no mention of Jesus at all. Ephesians 2:8 does not exhibit metonymy in any sense whatsoever. The faith of Ephesians 2:8 is the faith of the one being saved. The phrase, the faith of Jesus Christ, in the passages that you so often cite is nothing more than a really bad translation/interpretation by the authors of the KJV. It is right up there with the KJV for Romans 3:3 which speaks of the faith of God. The only way any of them can carry legitimate meaning is in the sense of the religion of God or the religion of Jesus Christ; that is, the system for redemption that God has established. It can carry no meaning whatsoever in the sense of Hebrews 11. And the definition and meaning of faith as given in Hebrews 11:1 is the definition and meaning of the faith that leads to salvation. That is the meaning of faith in Romans 10:17 and Ephesians 2. It is the faith of Luke 5:20; 7:50; 8:48; Rom 3:22; 3:28; 4:5,9,11,12,13; 5:1,2;9:30, 10:6,8,17 and nearly all of the rest of the 200+ verses in the NT where the word faith appears. And that doesn't even include the 100+ verses that speak of the belief, believing and believing in God, in Jesus Christ that can be found in the NT.

That you fail to understand the meaning of the word, is some of what produces so much of what is wrong with your soteriology.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, your definition and concept of faith as you posted in post #200 is totally false.

Jim, in "your" gospels of works, the true biblical sense of faith as it is used in Ephesians 2:8,9 has no place!

As I have noted before, given that Hebrews 11 is sometimes known as the faith chapter of the Bible, it is important to note that of all the examples presented for extraordinary faith there is no mention of Jesus at all. Ephesians 2:8 does not exhibit metonymy in any sense whatsoever.

That's not the purpose of Hebrews 11, but it is mentioned where Paul clearly taught us what is and is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Also, Paul, if he was in Hebrews 11, we would know that Paul and all of those mentioned in Hebrews eleven would all make the same confession as this:

Galatians 2:20​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Jim, you do not truly as of yet understand the gospel of free grace which provided and secured for each and every child of God, salvation from sin and condemnation by the faith and obedience of ONE PERSON, Jesus Christ, God's holy child, who alone had faith that cause him to obey perfectly God's holy, spiritual, and good law,. as the Son of Man.

The phrase, the faith of Jesus Christ, in the passages that you so often cite is nothing more than a really bad translation/interpretation by the authors of the KJV.

Oh, Jim it's bad only for your corrupt gospel, but it is the very word of God, and we know that it is a perfect translation, because this is the truth of the gospel of Christ, he acted as as ours surety before the law of God, he had to have prefect faith and obedience ~ otherwise he could not had been the spotless Lamb of God slain for the very elect which God provided for them. Beware of corrupting God's word just to make it fit with you false gospel.

That is the meaning of faith in Romans 10:17 and Ephesians 2.

Okay let us look at Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2: 4-9~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

God loved his elect even when they were by nature children of wrath, but only by nature and in no other sense. This cannot be said of all men, or we have a serious contradiction in the scripture, which we know is impossible, the problem lies in mans' reconciling God's words ~some men God hates.

Psalms 5:5​

“The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.”

Except those whom he had chosen in Christ and provided grace for them,

So, looking at Ephesians 2, we must confess that these scriptures teach that we were IN CHRIST as members of his elect body, what he did in this world was as though we did it, when he died, we died with him, when he arose from the dead, so did we, where he now sits in the heavenly, so do we legally speaking of course. This being so, and it is, Jesus' faith and obedience has been credited to our account as though we had faith and obey perfectly God's will, this is the means how one can be freely justified and God remains just in justifying sinners.

Rom 3:22

Jim, did you read that scripture before posting?

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

The righteousness of God was secured for us by the faith OF Jesus Christ. Jim, stop and think~Our faith, etc., is NOT that righteousness, Jesus Christ's faith and obedience IS that righteousness, the very one that God's law requires before one can enter into eternal life by having the righteousness of God.

 

[Jim]

Jim, in "your" gospels of works, the true biblical sense of faith as it is used in Ephesians 2:8,9 has no place!

Given your false understanding of works, Jesus taught a gospel of works: John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

That's not the purpose of Hebrews 11,

Of course it is. Your problem is that it completely refutes your concept of faith.

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Also, Paul, if he was in Hebrews 11, we would know that Paul and all of those mentioned in Hebrews eleven would all make the same confession as this:

Galatians 2:20​

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

You continue to base your entire soteriology on the terrible translation/interpretation of the KJV. It is a hopeless endeavor to discussion the subject of faith when you hold to the unbiblical definition and meaning of the word.

Okay let us look at Ephesians 2.

God loved his elect even when they were by nature children of wrath, but only by nature and in no other sense. This cannot be said of all men, or we have a serious contradiction in the scripture, which we know is impossible, the problem lies in mans' reconciling God's words ~some men God hates.

The word "elect" doesn't even show up in Ephesians.

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

The righteousness of God was secured for us by the faith OF Jesus Christ. Jim, stop and think~Our faith, etc., is NOT that righteousness, Jesus Christ's faith and obedience IS that righteousness, the very one that God's law requires before one can enter into eternal life by having the righteousness of God.

The very concept of the faith of Jesus Christ is an oxymoron. Even John Gill rejects your interpretation of Romans 3:22. Concerning that verse, Gill says, " Here it is said to be "by faith of Jesus Christ"; not by that faith which Christ himself had as man, but by that faith, of which he the author and object: the Alexandrian copy reads, "by faith in Jesus Christ";

Now of course, Gill goes on to give an absolute nonsensical analysis of the connection of that faith to righteousness.

 

[Red Baker]

GG said - Difference is: God is seeking everyone.

GG is right -

Pray to tell me exactly how God is going this?

Does not such scriptures as: the following mean anything to you, obliviously they do not.

1st Corinthians 1:26-29~"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Whatever sense you believe that God is seeking everyone, it cannot mean that God is calling everyman, for Paul said in these scriptures that not many, etc., are called. You folks are preaching, teaching and believing a lie.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

Once again, whatever sense God has shown the wicked His eternal power, it obliviously falls short of having any affect upon their souls and they needed much more to cause them to believe and follow him, as those He does called out of darkness into His glorious light.

1st Thessalonians 1:4,5​

“Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.”

 

[MTMattie]

Romans 3:22​

“Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”

The righteousness of God was secured for us by the faith OF Jesus Christ. Jim, stop and think~Our faith, etc., is NOT that righteousness, Jesus Christ's faith and obedience IS that righteousness, the very one that God's law requires before one can enter into eternal life by having the righteousness of God.

Just an FYI for all reading this

Only KJV says exactly as @Red Baker does.

The closest, but not perfect match are the 2 Catholic verses below.

NLKV corrected it to the other translations (faith in... except as follows)

King James Bible
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

New King James Version
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

The Bereans say
And the righteousness of God is through faith from Jesus Christ toward all those believing. For there is no distinction,

International Standard
God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah — for all who believe. For there is no distinction among people,

Webster
Even the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference:

Weymouth
a righteousness coming from God, which depends on faith in Jesus Christ and extends to all who believe. No distinction is made;

The CATHOLIC translations are closest to KJV
Douay-Rheims Bible
Even the justice of God, by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe in him: for there is no distinction:

Catholic Public Domain Version
And the justice of God, though the faith of Jesus Christ, is in all those and over all those who believe in him. For there is no distinction.

Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
But the righteousness of God is by the faith of Jesus Christ to every one, also to every man who believes in him, for there is no discrimination:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But the righteousness of God is by the faith of Yeshua The Messiah unto every person, also upon every person who believes in him, for there is no distinction,

Godbey New Testament
but the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ is unto all who believe: for there is no difference,

 

[Red Baker]

Given your false understanding of works, Jesus taught a gospel of works: John 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Jim I believe in works, in the sense in which Jesus here mention works, that faith IS A WORK of the law, which only God's children can obey once they have been created after the image of Jesus Christ, no problem Jim. I reject works of any kind before one is quicken to life by the Spirit of the Living God.

Of course it is. Your problem is that it completely refutes your concept of faith.

Hebrews 11 is not addressing free justification by God's grace as Galatians 2-5:4 does ~ Hebrews 11 is showing us what how the evidence of true faith living their life on this earth as they journey to the promised land. Two totally different subjects the the Spirit addressing.

You continue to base your entire soteriology on the terrible translation/interpretation of the KJV. It is a hopeless endeavor to discussion the subject of faith when you hold to the unbiblical definition and meaning of the word.

The translation Jim agrees with the gospel of Jesus Christ and free grace, so we KNOW that it is correct. The Spirit was very careful through Paul with His wording of Galatians 2:16.

The word "elect" doesn't even show up in Ephesians.

Jim you do not like the word? Many do not, so you are not alone. The word is used if I remember correctly at least fifteen times in the NT. So, it is a very biblical word and should be used. Chosen, election, elect, etc. Bible words Jim, even though those words are very seldom used in most places of worship, and it they are, it is more so to refute them to teach its truths.

The very concept of the faith of Jesus Christ is an oxymoron. Even John Gill rejects your interpretation of Romans 3:22. Concerning that verse, Gill says, " Here it is said to be "by faith of Jesus Christ"; not by that faith which Christ himself had as man, but by that faith, of which he the author and object: the Alexandrian copy reads, "by faith in Jesus Christ";

Now of course, Gill goes on to give an absolute nonsensical analysis of the connection of that faith to righteousness.

Jim , that a very sad statement coming from an older believer, you are not considering that Christ was a man sent to be a surety of God's elect.

I like Gill very much, but he's man just like you and myself, subject to error, which you know. I do not follow any man blindly.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Sorry, I went back and read the post again, I see what you meant, thanks for the reminder. Generally I do better, but I'm still recovering my power to think and reason and to post convincingly after being very sick for three weeks and still not 100% there ~ truly, I'm pushing myself to even make a few posts these last few days.

Take it easy RB.
Rest up...it'll pass...
same thing on this side of the pond...it takes forever to get over it.

Fran, There were many who taught God's election of grace way before Calvin did in the in mid 1500's. Luther did and he was a few short years before Calvin and preach during Calvin's time, even though they never met. Augustine taught predestination,

I agree.
Calvinism comes from Augustine and it's an interesting story but much too long.
Augustine was in the 5th century.
No ECF believed as he did regarding free will, original sin, or depravity.

Luther was of the same era as Calvin....

not sola fide (as Luther conceded). Even Aquinas taught hard-core predestination. As did Anselm, Gottesdalk, and others. John Wycliffe (d. 1384), who in many ways was the “Morning Star of the Reformation” in England. Read his thoughts on Election. The Bohemian Reformer Jan Hus (d. 1415) agreed with Wycliffe: the church was composed of those predestined in Christ. Fran, have you ever heard of the Waldenses? (1000 A.D.) They were known for their ascetic lifestyle and rejection of some Catholic teachings.

Interesting...since the CC and the Orthodox church were the only 2 churches at the time of the Waldenses....
And the others you mentioned were not in the early church....the early church consisted of those taught by the Apostles and I tend to hear them.

The Waldenses are considered to be one of the first Protestant movements. They taught unconditional election. So, Spurgeon, (though by no means is he one of my personal favorites, yet, he used a lot of flowery speech, which truly was his main gift not so much his teaching ability, which was lacking for sure) I he believe meant these which I just mentioned. Calvin is the man that systemized much of what the church taught back then in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin's masterpiece, a summary of biblical theology that became the normative statement of the Reformed faith.....(though I'm not of that community of believers, since we line up with the Particular Baptist that never were never part of Rome and even Calvin and others war against, called by some Anabaptist, but since I was not there, I'm not s sure exactly what to believe, other than we were not part of Rome or, the Reformers, even though we have great respect for them for the Reformers and their lo9ve for God and the scriptures) It was first published in 1536 and was revised and enlarged by Calvin in several editions before the definitive edition was published in 1559. What is so amazing concerning this work, is that Calvin wrote this at a very young age of twenty seven.

Fran, that has never been the case, no, never!

You're stating that God does not seek man.
What did Jesus mean when He said the following:

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
And, as @Jim stated...God has ALWAYS revealed Himself to man and held man responsible for His reply to God:

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

And what do you believe John meant when he wrote the following?:
1 John 1:3-4
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

John wrote his gospel and letters to proclaim what the APOSTELS HAD SEEN.
So that WE also could have fellowship with the Father and Son.
Why would John write the above if he believed God was going to choose the saved?
It would make no sense at all.

John wrote so that BY HEARING others could also come to beleive.
Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Faith comes by hearing...not because God chose who will be saved.
ANYONE can be saved....it's up to them...all they need to do is believe.

I could send much time here, but will only say a few words. When Jesus was on the earth, He sought out God's very elect, and to them he went.

Why? Why did Jesus come to earth to seek out the Elect?ù
Didn't God already KNOW who they were?

Jesus went by many just to get to Zacchaeus, and the scriptures tells us why..."forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham"...Fran, there were many natural sons of Abraham that Jesus went right by in order to get to a spiritual son of Abraham, a son of God's promises! Now, ask yourself why is this in our bibles? To ground us in this blessed truth that everyone of God's elect shall be found and brought into the sheep fold by the Good Sheppard of the sheep! They a e indeed made willing in the day of God's power.

Psalms 110:3​

“Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.”

You quoted Psalms....THE PEOPLE SHALL BE WILLING.....
Thanks RB.
Willing denotes FREE WILL.
Good verse.

All of God's children know the day of their conversion, but not the day when they were regenerated ~ two separate doctrines altogether. If you disagree then let us go to John 3 and take a look. No problem. Regeneration take place in our subconscious part of us, a work by the Spirit of God where He alone is the only active person working, for man is dead in trespasses and sins and must be given life before he can do spiritual acts pleasing to God. One is born of God/Spirit, our flesh and the will of another person has not one thing to do with a sinner being born of God, not one things, per John 1:13.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Great verse.
But HOW does it show that regeneration comes before conversion?

I agree not just for Calvinist, never said it was, it is for God's elect!

John 17:2​

“As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Not one more, and certainly not one less!

God Father gives to Jesus those who LISTEN AND LEARN from the word or from hearing.

Fran, you pick any scripture and I will respond, but I'm only going to do so, if you respond as well, so far I ask you two to three times to address
#200.......... there's more, but start with that one, since it is very critical in understanding how one is saved from sin and condemnation.

Am going to post 200 now...

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Fran, I dare say that you truly understand Ephesians 2:8,9, very few do. even some of God's best children do not.

I just went over these scriptures recently but will do so again.

Ephesians 2:7-9​

“That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws!

Wait.
Are you saying we are saved by the faith of Christ and not our own faith?
Please post scripture that states this.
Please post scripture that states that our faith produces perfect obedience.

The jailer in Acts 16:31 was told that he would be saved by BELIEVING.

BELIEVING means to have faith.
Paul didn't tell the jailer that Jesus had faith FOR HIM...
He told the jailer to BELIEVE...to HAVE FAITH.

Why would Jesus need faith?
Faith is something hoped for....
Jesus was God...what did He hope for?
Was He not saved?

Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

Yes. Faith is a gift.
But the person must WANT that free gift.
The gift is FOR ALL....IF they meet the requirements.

YOU believe God picks and chooses based on nothing we could know.

Instead, the entire bible was written so that we could know God and how to please Him.

Here are the requirements:
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
BELIEVE


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
OBEY

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

Every Christian believes the above,,,unless you're using words that to you mean something different.
It is God that works in us.....His elect but by our choice.....

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

If we were in Christ from all eternity...why is there a time when we become born again?
And would a baby end up in hell if he died BEFORE the time of becoming born again even if he
was chosen from all eternity?
The implication of this is that we would never know if a baby went to hell or heaven....
and the bible teaches that a baby cannot sin.