Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[MTMattie]

Very simple, (and quickly) it is hard to discuss salvation by what the sinner must do, in light of the fact that there are two main covenants taught in the scriptures, one that said: "this do, and live, sin and die" ~ which truly summed up the first covenant of works ~and since God found fault (through the foreknowledge of God) with man, (or angels as far as that goes) being unable to fulfilled the Royal law that reveals God's infinite righteous nature ~ through God's infinite and perfect knowledge he knew that there had to be another covenant if any would be saved and inherit eternal life, so He provided a New Covenant, and sealed that covenant by two immutable acts........... his holy oath and promises of grace to Christ and his seed those that were chosen to be members of his body, to whom the promises and oath was made to, and to them only.

So after 4000+ years of existence when God had Jesus be born to Mary, and ultimately crucified some 30 to 33 years later.....

First Jesus tells His disciples in Matt 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Then Jesus made the statement in Matt 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

The Gentiles were not to be approached. They basically were to be shunned.

The Gentiles seemingly were not initially included and not until we learn they were grafted into the "olive tree" did they have a chance of acceptance and salvation.

While it is true that the Gentiles may have been originally in the plans of salvation from the beginning, Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel giving them a second chance of Redemption, it seems odd that Paul would have said in Romans 11:11 "11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."

I'll stop because I see things in the written word that you do not.

And leave saying IMO if predestination... with or without Calvin. Withe or without Tulip is accurate, I see it as being meant for His chosen...His initial chosen... Israel, (Just remember the inportance that was placed on Jesus lineage back to David that they actually could trace not just Mary back there but also a way for Joseph too.... So there could be no mistake.

As much as I would take great comfort in the belief of predestination.... in no way do I see that applying to us, the way you do.

Have a great Saturday and weekend.

 

[Red Baker]

No amount of works can save us.

Then why do you and other teach that man in his natural state can desire and even seek God, and even love him before they are born again? Well, yo do teach works as a means of being born of God, regardless what you may say otherwise.

NOW....if you want to discuss if works are necessary AFTER we're saved...that is a different topic which I'm willing to discuss.
Ephesians 2:10 WE ARE CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS....

I'm good, I know and make it very clear the different between the two.

Salvation in all denominations is BY FAITH ALONE.

Well, you are wrong again, if you believe that, then just ask Jim is it by faith alone? He's going to tell you, that water baptism is needed to complete one's salvation. Other's will say that you must continue in faith in order to be saved at the end, even though when we press them for details, then all different among themselves as to what one must do and must not do.

God's faithful teach that salvation from sin and condemnation is by grace alone evidence that we are part of the elect is by faith and good works.

It is a FREE GIFT for anyone that would like to open that gift box.
There are NO WORKS involved...it's free.

So, you say it is a free gift, to anyone that would like to open that gift box? As though man can do so, as though he has the spiritual insight to know that the gift is in the box? That has works written all over it, yet you cannot see that this so! Then you just as quick said: "There are NO WORKS involved...it's free." Fran, If man has an active part in anyway conceivable, then that becomes a work, pure and simple. The natural man is dead in trespasses and sins, what he needs is LIFE, so that he can see, understand and believe.

You don't post scripture....you should.
However, you say the flesh is not subject to the law of God.
AGREED!
The lost are not subject to God's commandments.
Why would they be?
They're lost....they can't be more lost than lost.

It's the BELIEVER that is subject to obeying God.
It is US that Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 7:23....
we are the wise builders that listened and obeyed.

Fran, then how does a sinner who is at enmity against God get faith? I know how a regenerate child of God get faith, it comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but this is true only of a man that God has quicken to life. Let me tell you how one that is a unregenerate person gets faith.....it is freely given to them on the behalf of their surety, Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29​

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Coming back....RB

 

[MTMattie]

Then why do you and other teach that man in his natural state can desire and even seek God, and even love him before they are born again?

I am not answering for @God'sGrace but in my case, in my predestined denomination, it was mandatory to learn and study .... I wont say swear allegiance.. though that was pretty much the case before one would be accepted into the church meaning they pretty much regarded you as born again. After which then you could partake of Holy Communion.

In my predestined denomination the parents as well as the entire congregation were charged with bringing up the children.... I have no idea what they do with the adults who also have to take classes to be a member of the church today. I think only if they are changing denominations.

Well, yo do teach works as a means of being born of God, regardless what you may say otherwise.

As did my predestined congregation, and they still do.

I still maintain I walk by faith, not by sight.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (To me it is the being saved through faith, gift)
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Afterall: Paul again
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, / through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Galatians 2:16
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 3:11
Now it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 4:4-5
Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. / However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
John 6:28-29
Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” / Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

Enough for now

 

[GodsGrace]

All through the scriptures Jesus is presented to us as the surety of God's people. Read Isaiah 53.

God chose Jesus from among the people to be the mighty Surety (Psalm 89:19). He was made Surety by God's oath at His ordination as our Priest (Hebrews 7:21). Jesus did the will of God perfectly as our Surety for our salvation (Hebrews 10:5-14).

The DEFINITION​

Surety ~ A person who undertakes some specific responsibility on behalf of another who remains primarily liable; one who makes himself liable for the default or miscarriage of another, or for the performance of some act on his part (e.g. payment of a debt, appearance in court for trial, etc.). We have surety bonds, performance bonds, bail, and bond to guarantee legal, financial, and professional obligations, such as with construction and insurance companies. When we need to borrow more than our credit allows, we appreciate a surety; if we were arrested for something, we would appreciate the surety bond that lets us go free. Judah became a surety for Benjamin to his father Jacob (Genesis 43:8-10; 44:30-34; 42:37). Aaron became a surety for Israel in their sins and stood between them (Numbers 16:41-48).

The SURETISHIP​

Jesus, a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, was made the Surety of His people.

Being a surety means paying debts and performing, where the needy cannot pay or do. The wages of sin is death, which God’s justice pays; but Jesus died (Rom 6:23). Only the undefiled enter heaven, so He lived faultlessly for God's elect (Jude 1:24-25). Jesus was necessary as a surety, for the justice of God must surely be paid (Romans 3:26). He is the Testator, for it was by His death that He put the covenant in force (Hebrews 9:15). We see Him under the strain of the Surety engagement in Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-44). No man in heaven or earth could approach the throne, but only our Surety (Rev 5:1-14). If this is not a Surety, successfully finishing His work, what is it (Isaiah 53:4-12)? The doctrine of representation by the Second Adam reveals our Surety (Romans 5:15-19). The Lord Jesus tasted death for every one of His children to deliver them (Hebrews 2:9-17) How else can we look at the Book of Life, but as the list of His Surety engagements!

What does the above have to do with our discussion here?

"IS JESUS NOT GOD?? " Absolutely he was. 100% God, also, 100% man. Jesus was a complex person.

Then when I said one has to believe in God....why did YOU correct it to believing in JESUS?
The point is that JESUS IS GOD.

"Are you saying there's a difference between God and Jesus?"~Of course there is.....Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus! God is a Spirit, always has been, always will be! God cannot die, the Man, Jesus of Narareth died for the sins of God's elect.

"One is Father and one is Son...2 person, ONE AND THE SAME GOD. Right?" As far as in the redemption of God's elect, manifest as three, as far as Genesis 1:1, one God, eternal both ways. Jesus in his deity as God is the everlasting father of all things.

Isaiah 9:6​

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

So now you change the conversation to the Trinity.

So, Jesus did indeed secured eternal life for each and every person entrusted to him of his Father as the Lamb of God provided by God Himself to saved his people from their sins. So much so, that when he died, we died with him. when he arose, we as member of his elect body arose with him, etc.

Ephesians 2:4​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

I'm just going to take certain points of your and comment on them~so, I'll not be all over the place. One more thought.

Fran, please do not be so offended~one of us for sure lack spiritual knowledge, so, if you say the same to me, no problem, just prove it. I never accuse you of not being born again, that would demand discipline, but not what I said.

Here's what you're doing RB....
There's a topic at hand....I make a comment...and you reply with all sorts of stuff that has nothing to do with anything.

You do NOT reply to any of my posts by keeping to the topic.
Here is what we were discussing:
WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS IN CALVINISM?
TOTAL DEPRAVITY DOES NOT MEAN INABILITY TO SEEK GOD.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
FREE WILL.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
LIMITED ATONEMENT

All the above have been brought up....each topic could be its own thread and go on for pages.

So...You either:
1. Don't care to discuss in a serious manner.
2. Cannot discuss in a serious manner.

Replying to a post with a totally different topic does not make for a good discussion.


AND
I would never say you're not knowledgeable unless it was for a very specific topic and it was blatantly apparent.
You say above that if I say YOU are not knowledgeable, it would not be a problem but I'd have to prove it.
So perhaps YOU could prove that I AM NOT knowledgeable?
This would be interesting to see and a new experience after 10 years of forums.
Proving a negative...yes,,,try it.

And WHEN did I EVER say that you accused me of not being born again?
You must surely be getting me mixed up with a different member.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then why do you and other teach that man in his natural state can desire and even seek God, and even love him before they are born again? Well, yo do teach works as a means of being born of God, regardless what you may say otherwise.

Please explain the following verses....I already explained that it is NOT NECESSASRY to seek God AFTER a man is born again....it means he has ALREADY FOUND GOD.

If you believe a man is UNABLE to seek God,,,,you'll have to find an explantion for all of the following:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

​

Deuteronomy 4:29​

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Psalm 9:10​

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Matthew 7:7-8​

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

​

Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

​

I'm good, I know and make it very clear the different between the two.

Well, you are wrong again, if you believe that, then just ask Jim is it by faith alone? He's going to tell you, that water baptism is needed to complete one's salvation. Other's will say that you must continue in faith in order to be saved at the end, even though when we press them for details, then all different among themselves as to what one must do and must not do.

Apparently you're NOT good RB.
Did I not post Ephesians 2:8-9
WHAT about Ephesians do you not understand?
A person is SAVED BY FAITH ALONE.

AFTER salvation a person MUST OBEY GOD.
Are you saying we should NOT obey God?
John 3:36 AGAIN: IF YOU BELIEVE YOU ARE SAVED...IF YOU DO NOT OBEY THE WRATH OF GOD IS ON YOU.

@Jim is right.
We MUST OBEY GOD......
Does the word of God not teach us to be baptized?
If we do NOT get baptized....we are not OBEYING.

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,
Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you,



Does the word of God teach that we are to CONTINUE in the faith? Yes. It does:

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith...
2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
Matthew 24:10
And then many will fall away ...
Romans 11:20-21
So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Could you post some scripture that states that we can NEVER fall away?
Can you post some scripture that states that baptism is not necessary?

Please try to stay on topic.

God's faithful teach that salvation from sin and condemnation is by grace alone evidence that we are part of the elect is by faith and good works.

Oh...so now you're saying that the saved DO have to do good works?

AND we ALL agree that we are saved by grace and nothing else.

So we're speaking about AFTER salvation and you stated you understand the difference.

So, let's make this simple:
IS IT REQUIRED FOR SAVED PERSONS TO DO GOOD WORKS?

I think that's a yes or no reply.

I say YES.
Born again persons do good works because they are OBEYING GOD.

Persons that are NOT born again...are not required to do good works.
only the saved.

So, you say it is a free gift, to anyone that would like to open that gift box? As though man can do so, as though he has the spiritual insight to know that the gift is in the box? That has works written all over it, yet you cannot see that this so! Then you just as quick said: "There are NO WORKS involved...it's free." Fran, If man has an active part in anyway conceivable, then that becomes a work, pure and simple. The natural man is dead in trespasses and sins, what he needs is LIFE, so that he can see, understand and believe.

My post above with verses (and there are many more) stating that we are to seek God debunks Calvinism's teaching of
total depravity which states that man is UNABLE to seek God.

Calvinism causes a lot of conflict in the bible due to its incorrect eisegesis of scripture.

Fran, then how does a sinner who is at enmity against God get faith? I know how a regenerate child of God get faith, it comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but this is true only of a man that God has quicken to life. Let me tell you how one that is a unregenerate person gets faith.....it is freely given to them on the behalf of their surety, Jesus Christ.

A man gets faith because he hears the word and believe it.

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God.
You have to post scripture that states that man is predestinated to salvation.
You also would have to post scripture that states that a person must be regenerated first before becoming born again.
I've already stated that calvinism teaches that a person must become born again before he can become born again....this is nonsense.

Philippians 1:29​

“For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”

Philippians 1:29 BBE Version
27 Only let your behaviour do credit to the good news of Christ, so that if I come and see you or if I am away from you, I may have news of you that you are strong in one spirit, working together with one soul for the faith of the good news;
28 Having no fear of those who are against you; which is a clear sign of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God;
29 Because to you it has been given in the cause of Christ not only to have faith in him, but to undergo pain on his account:
30 Fighting the same fight which you saw in me, and now have word of in me.
Verse 28 Our salvation is from God.
Verse 29 Through the cause of Christ,,,His sacrifice,,,we have NOT ONLY faith IN HIM...but will undergo persecution of His account.

I think you need a new version....

CEB Version
28 That way, you won't be afraid of anything your enemies do. Your faithfulness and courage are a sign of their coming destruction and your salvation, which is from God.
29 God has generously granted you the privilege, not only of believing in Christ but also of suffering for Christ's sake.
Yes,,,God has granted us the PRIVILEGE of believing....
He did NOT predestinate our salvation...
it's a privilege give to anyone that wants it.
Scripture is a whole though...it is not verse by verse.
John 3:16 ANYONE CAN BE SAVED IF THEY WANT SALVATION.

NLB Version
28 Don’t be intimidated in any way by your enemies. This will be a sign to them that they are going to be destroyed, but that you are going to be saved, even by God himself.
29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.
Amplified Version
29For you have been granted [the privilege] for Christ’s sake, not only to believe and confidently trust in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Matthew 16:17​

“And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”

Coming back....RB

Agreed. God reveals all to those that learn from the Holy Spirit, from the beginning of time...it is GOD that has revealed Himself to us through His word and through His Holy Spirit.

 

[ProDeo]

What does the above have to do with our discussion here?


Then when I said one has to believe in God....why did YOU correct it to believing in JESUS?
The point is that JESUS IS GOD.


So now you change the conversation to the Trinity.

Here's what you're doing RB....
There's a topic at hand....I make a comment...and you reply with all sorts of stuff that has nothing to do with anything.

You do NOT reply to any of my posts by keeping to the topic.
Here is what we were discussing:
WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS IN CALVINISM?
TOTAL DEPRAVITY DOES NOT MEAN INABILITY TO SEEK GOD.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
FREE WILL.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
LIMITED ATONEMENT

All the above have been brought up....each topic could be its own thread and go on for pages.

So...You either:
1. Don't care to discuss in a serious manner.
2. Cannot discuss in a serious manner.

Replying to a post with a totally different topic does not make for a good discussion.


AND
I would never say you're not knowledgeable unless it was for a very specific topic and it was blatantly apparent.
You say above that if I say YOU are not knowledgeable, it would not be a problem but I'd have to prove it.
So perhaps YOU could prove that I AM NOT knowledgeable?
This would be interesting to see and a new experience after 10 years of forums.
Proving a negative...yes,,,try it.

And WHEN did I EVER say that you accused me of not being born again?
You must surely be getting me mixed up with a different member.

@Red Baker

I have to agree with GG.

Unconditional election is not Biblical, what it teaches -

Unconditional election (also called sovereign election or unconditional grace) is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world, when he predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest he left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. God made these choices according to his own purposes apart from any conditions or qualities related to those persons

Contrary to Scripture

1Tim 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

2Petr 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

----------

You know all these verses, maybe even by head, obviously stating what His purpose is, it's not unclear at all.

Luke 10:2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.

Jesus is saying many hearts are open to receive, John 6:44 comes to mind.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Red Baker]

What does the above have to do with our discussion here?

Everything~plus, you asked the question:

YOU replied that only Jesus can secure our salvation. IS JESUS NOT GOD?? Are you saying there's a difference between God and Jesus? One is Father and one is Son...2 person, ONE AND THE SAME GOD. Right?

If a person does not fully grasp the suretyship of Jesus Christ, then that person lacks true biblical understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The old divines understood it perfectly, but this truth is almost never preach as it once was, mainly because folks do not believe in Christ being made a surety for God's elect, per John 17; 2nd Corinthians 5:17-19; , etc., if they did, then they would also be preachers of God's sovereign grace as the only means of salvation from sin and condemnation. But, instead of peaching the doctrine of true grace, (1st Peter 5:12) they have fallen from it, (Galatians 5:4) and have jumped into the bed with the whore from Rome, I think you know who she is.

So now you change the conversation to the Trinity.

Fran, I'm just following your post and answering your questions, nothing more, it's you that's all over place...But, I'm not complaining, because overall we are staying on the subject, or will soon get back on track, questions always comes up, and if addressed in a few words, then fine, do it and labor to get back of track is what I have practiced over the year.

You do NOT reply to any of my posts by keeping to the topic.
Here is what we were discussing:
WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS IN CALVINISM?
TOTAL DEPRAVITY DOES NOT MEAN INABILITY TO SEEK GOD.
FAITH IS NOT A WORK.
FREE WILL.
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
LIMITED ATONEMENT

All the above have been brought up....each topic could be its own thread and go on for pages.

Fran go back and read my posts (btw, you skipped #194, 199, 200 ) and notice very carefully just how much I do reply to what has been spoken to me, you just might be surprised.

You say above that if I say YOU are not knowledgeable, it would not be a problem but I'd have to prove it.

Fran, that's wishful thinking on your part ~ what exactly have you proven? Show me, so I can read it and then comment, you need to wake up from your dream, and once you do, if you do, then you will see that it was only a false dream on your part. So show me exactly what you are referring to, love to see it.

And WHEN did I EVER say that you accused me of not being born again?
You must surely be getting me mixed up with a different member.

Fran, you never said it and neither did I say you did~I said......I would never say a person is not born again, just because I may differ with that person on certain doctrines, even though I will say that a person is without true knowledge, but would never go as far as saying they were not born again ~ even though I may stand in doubt as Paul often did.......Fran, slow down and read carefully what is being said.

Please explain the following verses.

Okay, there we go again, I will answer this, but be it known that I'm only following what "you" request, so do not accuse me later of jumping all over the place, something I very seldom do, others who know me well would agree.

Fran, coming back very soon to answer whatever you desire for me to do so.

 

[ProDeo]

Ephesians 1:5
“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”

Fran, do you have a problem with this statement by Paul? Does God need to give an account unto you, or me, or anyone as far as that goes, I think not?

Paul is writing this to -- To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus -- verse 1.1

How can Paul know -- the saints who are in Ephesus -- are they really born again and saved Christians ?

He can't, Paul can not read the mind of the God of unconditional election.

That is, according your belief Paul is in error.

I don't know how to put it more clearly than this.

Predestination is nothing more than God's foreknowledge before the foundation of the world, the names in the Book of Life.

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

 

[ProDeo]

Please consider: (I may break this into two posts)

I am not going to argue with a webpage.

Proverbs 16:4~"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."​

Give Jehovah God glory! Fall before the King of heaven! Here are final and true answers to four of life’s greatest questions: Where did all things come from? Why do they exist? Who is the true God? Why does evil exist? This single sentence is worth your weight in gold! Humble yourself before this axiom from heaven and learn wisdom for life!

Proverbs is of little value, if you miss this. The beginning of wisdom requires grasping this proverb (Pr 1:7; 9:10). This verse should be one of the first children memorize. Here is the Bible worldview. From this foundation of knowledge, you can reason safely and sanely about other aspects of life. If you neglect or reject the truth here, your life will be a nightmare of confusion, and then you will meet an angry God (Ps 7:11; Amos 4:12).

Where did all things come from? God made all things. Evolution is a lie, told by God-haters, to discredit the Bible. The Bible says: “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen 1:1). This is more certain than any fact you will ever hear. If you do not have the faith to believe it, you are unreasonably stupid (II Thess 3:2; I Tim 6:20-21).

It is a sign of insanity to begin your reasoning about the universe from a big bang of chaotic gases. Where did the gases come from? How did an explosion bring order and beauty out of chaos? How did the result include reproducing identically after each kind? How did it result in millions of different kinds, all reproducing after their own kind?

Jesus Christ, the Mighty God, made all things. The Bible is plain: “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). You should not argue creation versus evolution with unbelievers. Unless they have faith, they cannot learn anything of value, especially if educated. An arrogant man flattered with education and degrees is worse than a fool (Pr 26:12; I Cor 1:19-20; 3:19-20; I Tim 6:3-5).

The only big bang this universe ever felt was the shocking force of God’s words, “Let there be light!” And there was light! Even without a sun, moon, or stars for three days! He made all things, and He made them out of nothing. By faith you not only may know this fact, you may understand it also (Heb 11:3). Man is nothing more than a vessel of the divine Potter. Grasp this first answer thoroughly, and you are on your way to wisdom.

Consider what makes a person. Parents, height, nationality, intelligence, looks, time of birth, strength, race, coordination, personality, and opportunities make a person. God chose every one of these for you, without consulting you at all. He did not ask you a single question about your preferences. He chose them Himself! He gave you existence, a very personal thing, and the pain and trouble it brings, without asking you. You cannot even end your existence. You will eventually have to deal with Him. He is God.

You are fearfully and wonderfully made, but so are all His creatures (Ps 139:14). You are not special. You are certainly not special, because you are human, as humanists suggest. God is special, and you owe Him all that you are and have. Reject the folly of self-love and self-esteem (II Tim 3:1-2). Lift your eyes up to heaven, and bless and extol the most High. Read the greatest king’s personal testimony about meeting God (Dan 4:1-37).

If a person does not believe God made all things, there is no reason discussing anything of any importance with him. He has chosen a worldview of insanity, reasoning in a circle from his own imagination. How will you settle anything with him? He has the same answer for all questions – because I think so. He cannot know anything for certain, for his foundation rests on the thin air of speculative hallucinations that he calls theories.

Why do things exist? Why is the universe here? Why is man here? Why are you here? God made all things, and He made them for Himself! Give glory! Worship Him! Sing praise to Him! “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created” (Rev 4:11). You will soon bow to this Blessed and Only Potentate (Phil 2:9-11; I Tim 6:13-16).

These first two answers are so true, you should say, “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom 11:36). He is the First Cause of all things, and He is the Final End of all things. All things were created by Him and for Him (Col 1:16). Fall before Him now. Give Him the honor and praise due to His name.

The universe exists because God wanted to make something for Himself. He did not make the world for man; He made the world and man for Himself. You do not exist for yourself, nor does anything else exist for you; you and all things exist for His pleasure. It is time to humble yourself and see the purpose of your existence – the glory of God. If you rebel against this fact, or even neglect it, you will have hell to pay, now and later.

Why do elephants have long noses? For you to praise God for His creativity! Why do giraffes have long necks? For the same reason! Why can a blue sky with white clouds and a warm sun make your heart sing? For the glory of God! Why do baboons not pull their hairy pants all the way up? For you to laugh with God! What is the value of a zoo? It is for family worship – to praise God and ridicule Charles Darwin and Stephen Hawking.

Why are ostriches stupid? For you to know God made dumb things (Job 39:13-18)! Why are horses wonderful? For God to brag about them (Job 39:19-25)! Why does a woman’s body have curves that take a man’s breath away (Song 4:1-7; 7:1-9)? For the praise of His work with a rib! Why are there rainbows? To remind you God keeps His promises (Gen 12:9-17)! Give Him glory, reader. Praise Him this minute to fulfill your existence.

If you are short, fat, ugly, and stupid, God made you that way for Himself. You know He did not make you that way for you. You wish you were tall, thin, attractive, and smart. He made the baboon for Himself, and He made you for Himself. Give Him glory! Horrible parents, few opportunities in life, and poor health are also His choices. It is a key to happiness to learn and accept this knowledge. Whatever you have, and whatever you do not have, are both by God’s choice for His own glory. Thank Him! Worship Him!

Even Satan was made for the glory of God. God allowed him, as part of His eternal purpose, to rebel in pride, so He could display His wrath and power in Satan’s eternal punishment. God was not surprised by his rebellion. Satan and his angels shall be cast into everlasting fire, prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Mat 25:41). The smoke of his torment and that of his followers will be incense in heaven (Rev 14:10-11).

Pharaoh was conceived easily, survived childbirth, and avoided the diseases that took the lives of many Egyptian children. He graduated at the top of his class, won several victories leading the army, and was chosen from numerous siblings to be ruler of Egypt. While king, the nation prospered and became powerful. He was a success at anything he tried. His glory and power increased. He became the greatest monarch on earth. Why?

Where did Pharaoh come from? What was the source of his unique ambition, personality, dreams, and successes? God made him, and God promoted him to the top of Egyptian power by arranging the events of his life. Why did God do this? To destroy him in the Red Sea to magnify Himself (Ex 9:16; Rom 9:17)! God did not make Pharaoh wicked; but God did raise this wicked man up to destroy Him wonderfully for the praise of His own reputation. If you do not know these things, you do not know the God of the Bible.

Who is the true God? The LORD is His name! What does LORD mean? It is the English designation for the sacred Hebrew tetragrammaton, JHVH, which stands for I AM THAT I AM, which you pronounce as Jehovah! Allah is merely the moon god of hallucinating Arabians; Vishnu, Brahma, and Shiva are merely three of the Hindu imagined deities.

The LORD Jehovah is the true God. He is the only God. He looked for other gods, but He could not find any. He alone is God. He created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them in six days. He is independent of all His creatures. He is infinite by any measure. He is eternal, immortal, invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Why does evil exist? Some believe the first three answers. They believe Jehovah created all things for Himself. But they limit His dominion by suggesting that wicked men and their sinful actions are outside His plan and control. To correct this false notion, Solomon immediately included even the wicked and their judgment in Jehovah’s creating of all things for Himself. Even wicked men and their eventual destruction are for God’s glory.

Evil exists because God gave Satan a free will. Rather than be content with his office, he swelled up in pride (I Tim 3:6). God gave him privilege and freedom, and he used it to rebel against his Creator. The blessed God was not surprised or disappointed; Satan is responsible for his wicked deed; God is righteous in tormenting him forever for his sin.

Where does suffering come from? Satan brought his rebellion to earth. He lied to your first parents, and Adam chose his foolish wife over God. Jehovah made man very good in a perfect world, but man corrupted the earth by sinning against His Maker (Gen 1:31; 3:16-19; Eccl 7:29). Adam chose the curse of sin for his family over Paradise with God. The whole creation groans in pain, travail, and death due to his sin (Rom 5:12-14; 8:22).

Evolutionists cannot explain death. It should have evolved away long ago, since it is the most dreaded and hated thing in life. If a slimy salamander can evolve to be a bald eagle, then surely man could have evolved death away. Death is the wages of sin. And the Bible teaches this fact clearly, which no evolutionist will ever find in a test tube or telescope. God created death, in several forms, as just punishment for sin. Therefore, all men die.

Adam’s sin in the Garden of Eden did not surprise or confuse the LORD. He had planned the entrance of sin into the human family, though Adam freely chose Eve over God without any coercion at all. Adam alone is responsible for his sin and the consequences. God made him perfect, warned him, and gave him only one commandment to keep. God had planned the entrance of sin for the ultimate display of both his wrath and mercy.

Depraved children of Adam, with hearts in all-out rebellion against God and morality, commit atrocities daily. You hear and read about them. They, nor their atrocities, surprise or confuse the LORD. He made them as surely as any creature. He restrains their wickedness, so all they can do is what He will use for Himself (Ps 76:10). They never think about God at all (Ps 10:4); they only want to satisfy themselves (James 1:13-16).

The blessed and holy God does not make men sin, but He does control and use their sins for wise and righteous purposes. God is perfectly holy and good. Man chooses sin willfully against the light of nature and warnings from God and men. God never puts sinful lusts in men, for He does not need to. They are so full of lust and wickedness, all He needs to do is lift His restraining mercy, and any man will do anything. Believe it!

 

[Red Baker]

I already explained that it is NOT NECESSASRY to seek God AFTER a man is born again.

Let say this: you gave your opinion, for you certainly did not explain a doctrine/position that cannot be supported with scriptures ~ the truth is: one can only seek God, according to the scriptures, after they have been created in the image of Jesus Christ, which takes place in the new birth. You have it all backwards, which does not surprise me, better for me to tell you now, than for God in that day.

First, let us establish God's truth concerning man in his natural state as he comes forth from the womb of his mother, in other words, that which is born of flesh,....what saith the holy scriptures, which is God's testimony of the truth, not mine, not yours, not any man, but God himself, which should stop every man's mouth, but it does not those who are full of pride and who preaches a gospel suitable for man to accept.

Fran, you and others believe that the natural man, is capable of seeking God, when nothing could be farther from God's truth than that lie from the father of lies, the devil himself. As the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your mind has been corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. What is that simplicity? Read the following:

Romans 3:9-18~"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."

This is a picture of every man's heart as he is by nature born of flesh, and this testimony is given by the Spirit of the Living God and we will add, for any man to reject this testimony is to blatantly cast aside God's testimony for their own desire beliefs over God's and all who do so, will paid a terrible price for doing so.

So, do you think man by natural can desire seek after God and find him? Consider:

There is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:11). It was God who sought out and called Abram while yet an idolater. It was God who sought Jacob at Bethel when he was fleeing from the consequences of his wrong doing. It was God who sought Moses while a fugitive in Midian. It was Christ who sought out the apostles while they were engaged in fishing, so that He could say, “Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16). It was Christ who, in His ineffable love, came to seek and to save that which was lost. It is the Shepherd who seeks the sheep, and not the sheep that seek the Shepherd.

How true it is that “We love Him because He first loved us.” (1st John 4:19). It was not Adam who sought God, but God who sought Adam. And this has been the order ever since. O, that we might appreciate more deeply the marvelous condescension of Deity in stooping so low as to care for and seek out such poor worms of the dust.

Deut 32:10
“He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; He led him about, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye!”

“He found him in a desert land.” It needs hardly to be said that the word “found” necessarily implies a “search.” Here then we have presented to our view the amazing spectacle of a seeking God! Sin came in between the creature and the Creator, causing alienation and separation. Not only so, but, as the result of the Fall, every human being enters this world with a mind that is “enmity against God.” Consequently, there is none that seeketh after God. Therefore, God, in His marvelous condescension and grace, becomes the Seeker.

The word “found” not only implies a search but, when we consider the sinful character and unworthiness of the objects of His search, it also tells of the love of the Seeker. The great God becomes the Seeker because He set His heart upon those whom He marked out to be the recipients of His sovereign favors. God had set His heart upon Abraham, and therefore did He seek and find him amid the heathen idolaters in Ur of Chaldea.

God set His heart upon Jacob, and therefore did He seek out and find him as a fugitive from his brother’s vengeance, when he lay asleep on the bare earth. So too it was because He had loved Moses with an everlasting love that the Lord sought out and found him in Midian, at “the backside of the desert.” Equally true is this with every real Christian living in the world today:

Romans 10:20
“I was found of them that sought me not; I was manifest unto them that asked not after me (Rom. 10:20).

Fran, you have it all backward! Who found who?

Here is a test: If God has revealed Himself, He has given you a sight of yourself, for in His light we “see light.” A most humbling, painful, and never-to-be-forgotten experience this is. When God was revealed to Abraham, he said, “I am but dust and ashes” (Gen. 18:27). When He was revealed to Isaiah, the prophet said, “Woe is me for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips” (Isa. 6:5). When God revealed Him-self to Job, he said, “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6) – note, not merely I abhor my wicked ways, but my vile self.

Coming back to address you scriptures.

 

[Jim]

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness? Consider carefully:

NO! NO! NO! I am sorry, Red, but that is an out and out misdirection of scripture. That is simply not true.

Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?

It, i.e., Abraham's faith, his believing in God, was counted, was reckoned as righteousness. There is not even a hint about it being only the evidence of righteousness. Romans 4 clearly lays out Abraham's faith in God as the basis for God imputing righteousness to Abraham.

The entire chapter 4 of Romans lays out not only for Abraham, but also for us, that our faith is the reason, the very basis, by which God declares us righteous. Any attempt to say otherwise is a clear and present attempt to destroy the truth of the gospel.

Rom 4:19-25

He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It [our faith] will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

There is no way to alter the meaning of that chapter to make it seem like faith is only the evidence of righteousness. Faith is the condition whereby God justifies. Those who believe are justified. Those who believe are declared righteous. Faith is the absolute basis for being saved, for being justified, for being born again, i.e., regenerated, for being initially sanctified.

Everything that you have said, disclaiming our faith as the basis for God saving us, is just wrong. And that is the core of the Calvinist heresy.

 

[Red Baker]

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Well, we know to whom Christ was speaking to, for sure, not those whose heart's had never been changed/open etc.

Matthew 5:1​

“And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,”

Go through the sermon on the Mount and it will be very clear to any sincere seeker of the truth whom Christ is speaking to all through this sermon.

Bottom line, only those born of God will and can seek him. Believers should set their hearts to seek God's kingdom above their necessary food just as Job said that he did.

Job 23:12​

“Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.”

That in essence is seeking the kingdom of God, only those men and women who's heart the Lord has opened will do so.

Acts 16:14​

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.”

Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Faith is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God~without which, it would be impossible for the flesh to have faith.

Galatians 5:22​

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,”

2nd Peter 1:1​

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:”

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Fran, this Lady Wisdom loves those who love her. Her love brings honor, riches, life, and God’s favor. What more could you want? Her love is better than rubies, silver, gold, or anything you can imagine. Only God's children desires the wisdom found in the word of God, the world loves it own wisdom above what they consider pure foolishness. Jesus Christ was made unto God's children Wisdom, etc. only after we are born of God do we even have a desire to seek wisdom that is hidden in the scriptures.

1st Corinthians 1:30​

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:”

What little wisdom each of us posses, we have this wisdom only in Christ, not outside of him, how foolish to believe that we could even have any, much more, to believe that we had enough in our natural state to seek God from the wrath to come.

Have some obligations I'll come back and finish.

 

[GodsGrace]

Everything~plus, you asked the question:

If a person does not fully grasp the suretyship of Jesus Christ, then that person lacks true biblical understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ. The old divines understood it perfectly, but this truth is almost never preach as it once was, mainly because folks do not believe in Christ being made a surety for God's elect, per John 17; 2nd Corinthians 5:17-19; , etc., if they did, then they would also be preachers of God's sovereign grace as the only means of salvation from sin and condemnation. But, instead of peaching the doctrine of true grace, (1st Peter 5:12) they have fallen from it, (Galatians 5:4) and have jumped into the bed with the whore from Rome, I think you know who she is.

Fran, I'm just following your post and answering your questions, nothing more, it's you that's all over place...But, I'm not complaining, because overall we are staying on the subject, or will soon get back on track, questions always comes up, and if addressed in a few words, then fine, do it and labor to get back of track is what I have practiced over the year.

Fran go back and read my posts (btw, you skipped #194, 199, 200 ) and notice very carefully just how much I do reply to what has been spoken to me, you just might be surprised.

Fran, that's wishful thinking on your part ~ what exactly have you proven? Show me, so I can read it and then comment, you need to wake up from your dream, and once you do, if you do, then you will see that it was only a false dream on your part. So show me exactly what you are referring to, love to see it.

Fran, you never said it and neither did I say you did~I said......I would never say a person is not born again, just because I may differ with that person on certain doctrines, even though I will say that a person is without true knowledge, but would never go as far as saying they were not born again ~ even though I may stand in doubt as Paul often did.......Fran, slow down and read carefully what is being said.

Okay, there we go again, I will answer this, but be it known that I'm only following what "you" request, so do not accuse me later of jumping all over the place, something I very seldom do, others who know me well would agree.

Fran, coming back very soon to answer whatever you desire for me to do so.

Now you're discussing OSAS by bringing up Jesus' surety.
I never brought this up.

I'm not going back to look for anything.
I reply DIRECTLY to persons posts.
YOU bring up a new topic in every post of yours...
this is to misdirect. I don't get misdirect...this tactic will not work.

How about answering when you're posting?
Why do you always have to "COME BACK"?

I post scripture.
You can reply with YOUR understanding of that scripture.
YOU are not authorized enough to tell me I'm wrong when I'm posting straight out of the bible.

You're arguing with the bible RB....
Not with me.

 

[Thaddeus]

In a broad sense, John wrote to provide the Christians of the province of Asia (now in Asia Minor) with a fuller understanding of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ. More specifically, he wrote to lead his readers to a settled faith on the basis of the words and works of Jesus, with the result that they “may have life in His name”

 

[GodsGrace]

Let say this: you gave your opinion, for you certainly did not explain a doctrine/position that cannot be supported with scriptures ~ the truth is: one can only seek God, according to the scriptures, after they have been created in the image of Jesus Christ, which takes place in the new birth. You have it all backwards, which does not surprise me, better for me to tell you now, than for God in that day.

NO SIR....
I do not state MY OPINION.
YOU believe man cannot seek God.
AGAIN for the THIRD TIME: A saved person does not need to seek God.. he has ALREADY FOUND GOD.

I posted MANY verses that state that we are to seek God.
What YOU have to do is pick 2 or 3 of them out and show us here HOW they are referring to saved person.

Let's take these 2:
Matthew 6:32-33
32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
I'm sure you know that in Matthew 6 Jesus is giving the Sermon on the Mount.
Do you believe ONLY Jesus' disciples (followers) were present or even others that were there to hear Him and learn from Him?
He is speaking to ALL OF THE CROWD...both pagans and some believers in Him, as rabbi, as Messiah, since His Lordship had not been established at this point.
JESUS tells ALL OF THE CROWD that they need to SEEK THE KINGDOM OF GOD...
and then their physical needs will also be met.



Deuteronomy 4:25-30
25 After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time—if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and arousing his anger,
26 I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you this day that you will quickly perish from the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess. You will not live there long but will certainly be destroyed.
27 The LORD will scatter you among the peoples, and only a few of you will survive among the nations to which the LORD will drive you.
28 There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell.
29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.
30 When you are in distress and all these things have happened to you, then in later days you will return to the LORD your God and obey him.
Read Verse 30 carefully: If they RETURN to God,,,
It means they had ABANDONED GOD and are RETURNING to Him
IF THEY SEEK HIM WITH ALL THIER HEART.


Could you please explain how the above 2 passages are referring to SAVED believers??
Thanks.

First, let us establish God's truth concerning man in his natural state as he comes forth from the womb of his mother, in other words, that which is born of flesh,....what saith the holy scriptures, which is God's testimony of the truth, not mine, not yours, not any man, but God himself, which should stop every man's mouth, but it does not those who are full of pride and who preaches a gospel suitable for man to accept.

You forgot to post scripture, as usual.
WHAT IS MAN'S NATURAL STATE?
AND HOW DOES THIS NATURAL STATE PROHIBIT MAN FROM SEEKING GOD
when there are 10's of verses telling us to seek God.
Please reply to the above two verses I've posted.

I'm not responding to the rest here which is typical CALVINIST babble....
ONLY Calvinists know and are able to accept the gospel.
1. I've asked you a couple of times WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS in the gospel of calvinists?
NO REPLY AS OF YET.
2. ONLY calvinists believe in a DIFFERENT GOSPEL....the rest of Christianity believes in the gospel as the 4 writers have outlined.

Fran, you and others believe that the natural man, is capable of seeking God, when nothing could be farther from God's truth than that lie from the father of lies, the devil himself. As the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your mind has been corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. What is that simplicity? Read the following:

Well RB,,,I'm afraid t hat you're going to have TO PROVE that man is unable to seek God when I've posted
MANY verses throughout my discussion with you COMMANDING us to seek God.

This is a picture of every man's heart as he is by nature born of flesh, and this testimony is given by the Spirit of the Living God and we will add, for any man to reject this testimony is to blatantly cast aside God's testimony for their own desire beliefs over God's and all who do so, will paid a terrible price for doing so.

So, do you think man by natural can desire seek after God and find him? Consider:

What I believe is what the bible states....not what JOHN CALVIN believed.

There is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:11).

This is soooo tiring RB.
Romans 3:11
Really !
Get some more scripture PLEASE.
This is the problem. It's all you've got.
It's referring to people in Psalm 101 THAT ARE FOOLS BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

How could none be righteous if
ABRAHAM WAS RIGHTEOUS
NOAH WAS RIGHTEOUS

Really...get some FRESH.
Thanks.

It was God who sought out and called Abram while yet an idolater. It was God who sought Jacob at Bethel when he was fleeing from the consequences of his wrong doing. It was God who sought Moses while a fugitive in Midian. It was Christ who sought out the apostles while they were engaged in fishing, so that He could say, “Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16). It was Christ who, in His ineffable love, came to seek and to save that which was lost. It is the Shepherd who seeks the sheep, and not the sheep that seek the Shepherd.

Now you're discussing free will.
I know that this is a problem with Calvinism because each acronym of TULIP pulls on the one before.
Abraham could have disobeyed.
Moses could have said NO.
WHERE is it stated in the OT that Abraham was forced to leave UR?
WHERE in the OT does it state that Moses was forcefully sent to Egypt?
YOU made the comment...
it's up to YOU to prove what you've posted.
Again...just because YOU say it...
does not make it so.

And if you want to discuss sheep now....off onto another rabbit hole...
PLEASE POST SCRIPTURE.

How true it is that “We love Him because He first loved us.” (1st John 4:19). It was not Adam who sought God, but God who sought Adam. And this has been the order ever since. O, that we might appreciate more deeply the marvelous condescension of Deity in stooping so low as to care for and seek out such poor worms of the dust.

God sought -Adam.
News to me.
I thought God decided to create...
both nature and man.

But we're off onto another rabbit hole.
Not going there.
You'll HAVE TO USE SCRIPTURE.

Deut 32:10
“He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; He led him about, He instructed him, He kept him as the apple of His eye!”

“He found him in a desert land.” It needs hardly to be said that the word “found” necessarily implies a “search.” Here then we have presented to our view the amazing spectacle of a seeking God! Sin came in between the creature and the Creator, causing alienation and separation. Not only so, but, as the result of the Fall, every human being enters this world with a mind that is “enmity against God.”

I'd say that man is born lost.
Agreed.

Consequently, there is none that seeketh after God. Therefore, God, in His marvelous condescension and grace, becomes the Seeker.

Oddly enough, you've stated a correct Christian doctrine.
Unfortunately, it doesn't mean what you want it to mean.
In Christianity God always makes the first move.
MAN RESPONDS OUT OF HIS FREE WILL.

What you're stating, in a sweet and soft way,
is that GOD CHOOSES whom He will....

NO....the bible only states that God would want all men to be saved.
IT'S UP TO MAN'S FREE WILL to reply and accept God's offer.

John 3:16 TELLS US HOW TO ACCEPT GOD.
Acts 16:31 TELLS US HOW TO BECOME SAVED

The word “found” not only implies a search but, when we consider the sinful character and unworthiness of the objects of His search, it also tells of the love of the Seeker. The great God becomes the Seeker because He set His heart upon those whom He marked out to be the recipients of His sovereign favors. God had set His heart upon Abraham, and therefore did He seek and find him amid the heathen idolaters in Ur of Chaldea.

God set His heart upon Jacob, and therefore did He seek out and find him as a fugitive from his brother’s vengeance, when he lay asleep on the bare earth. So too it was because He had loved Moses with an everlasting love that the Lord sought out and found him in Midian, at “the backside of the desert.” Equally true is this with every real Christian living in the world today:

Romans 10:20
“I was found of them that sought me not; I was manifest unto them that asked not after me (Rom. 10:20).

Fran, you have it all backward! Who found who?

Romans 10:20
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”
21 But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Let's examine:
Verse 15 Please tell us what the good news of the gospel is for calvinists. Thanks.
Verse 16 self explanatory
Verse 17 Faith comes by hearing the word of God ! The message is heard through Christ.
Verse 18 self-explanatory
Verse 19 The envy would be for the gentiles. See Romans 9 which Calvinists so love.
Verse 20 GOD WAS FOUND....the opposite of what YOU are stating...THE GENTILES FOUND GOD.
They did not ask for God...but they found Him anyway THROUGH PREACHING.


The problem with the reformed/calvinist believers is that they take verses OUT OF CONTEXT to try to make then say what the verse
DOES NOT SAY.

YOU post a few words that SEEM to support your incorrect theology...
I, instead, post the entire passage and it will ALWAYS support mainline Christianity,,,NOT calvinism.

Here is a test: If God has revealed Himself, He has given you a sight of yourself, for in His light we “see light.” A most humbling, painful, and never-to-be-forgotten experience this is. When God was revealed to Abraham, he said, “I am but dust and ashes” (Gen. 18:27). When He was revealed to Isaiah, the prophet said, “Woe is me for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips” (Isa. 6:5). When God revealed Him-self to Job, he said, “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes” (Job 42:6) – note, not merely I abhor my wicked ways, but my vile self.

Coming back to address you scriptures.

No tests RB
Respond with scripture.
Respond by showing me HOW I'm wrong in my exegesis.
Just like I do with your verses.

 

[MTMattie]

John 3:16 TELLS US HOW TO ACCEPT GOD.
Acts 16:31 TELLS US HOW TO BECOME SAVED

I simply do not understand why everyone does not see this.

Simplicity at its finest.

 

[Red Baker]

NO SIR....I do not state MY OPINION. YOU believe man cannot seek God. AGAIN for the THIRD TIME: A saved person does not need to seek God.. he has ALREADY FOUND GOD. I posted MANY verses that state that we are to seek God. What YOU have to do is pick 2 or 3 of them out and show us here HOW they are referring to saved person.

Well, Fran, you did and still are giving your personal opinions, but proving this is a task that only God can show you, if he wills to do so, my powers are very limited, all I can do is put forth the truth, which I have done and will continue to do so. There's nothing new under the sun.

Matthew 13 :9-18~"Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

"What YOU have to do is pick 2 or 3 of them out and show us here HOW they are referring to saved person."

Fran, at least be honest, I started with the first one, that you put forth, and went in order until I had to leave for other obligations, but plan on finishing each and everyone, no problem whatsoever in doing so.

"AGAIN for the THIRD TIME: A saved person does not need to seek God.. he has ALREADY FOUND GOD."

I'm not finished in addressing this very easy and shallow point, and shallow it is. Please clam down and I will address everything, you truly do not know who you are posting to, but will find out very soon, that I'm a man of my word, this does not mean I may not miss something, of course I may, but never on purpose, but one thing I will do is be honest and address points presented and give some some from scriptures in doing so.

Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

This is the next one in order that you provided. I'll come back and pick up here. I try hard to stay away from long posts, since most folks, complain about them being long, if you desire long ones, then tell me and I 'll do what you desire when posting to you...let me know.

 

[ProDeo]

Fran, at least be honest,

Why ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, we know to whom Christ was speaking to, for sure, not those whose heart's had never been changed/open etc.

Matthew 5:1​

“And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,”

Go through the sermon on the Mount and it will be very clear to any sincere seeker of the truth whom Christ is speaking to all through this sermon.

Bottom line, only those born of God will and can seek him. Believers should set their hearts to seek God's kingdom above their necessary food just as Job said that he did.

NO. What you posed IS NOT the bottom line because I posted MANY verses stating that we can seek God.
UNLESS YOU can post some verses where it states that God cannot be sought, and I mean more than one referring to FOOLISH UNBELIEVERS in the OT.....
then you'll have to conceded that Calvinism is debunked by scripture.

Matthew 5:1
Sure Jesus' disciples came to Him.
Do you seriously think ONLY His disciples followed Him around?
Perhaps YOU should go through the Sermon on the Mount AND all of scripture.

Matthew 4:23-25 and Matthew 5:1
23 Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
24 The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill *, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.

1 When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.

Let's notice:

Jesus was going through Galilee...teaching everywhere.
And to everyone.
Jesus had made big news...He healed, He preached....not only His followers were interested in Him.
LARGE CROWDS followed Him from everywhere, even BEYOND THE JORDAN.

Matthew 5:1
AFTER Jesus sat down....His disciples came to Him....
THEY CAME TO HIM...
They went to be NEAR HIM, After He sat down.

Please see Matthew 5 verse 28:
THE MULTITUDES.....
The multitudes included EVERYONE...those that came to believe and those that did not.

Jesus spoke to BOTH His disciples and the great multitudes.
He was TEACHING.

Job 23:12​

“Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.”

That in essence is seeking the kingdom of God, only those men and women who's heart the Lord has opened will do so.

First,,, I NEVER post anything from Job.
Second...what do you mean IN ESSENSE it means he's seeking...

WHERE in Job 23:12 does it speak about seeking God?

Here is Job 23:12
10 "But He knows the way I take; When He has tried me, I shall come forth as gold.
11 "My foot has held fast to His path; I have kept His way and not turned aside.
12 "I have not departed from the command of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food.

Let's examine:
Verse 10 God KNOWS the ways of Job...He just KNOWS them...God does not predestinate...never any talk of predestinating.
Verse 11 Job was a believer
Verse 12 Job kept God's commandments
WHERE does it speak about seeking God??

That's a pretty poor response for the 10's of verses in the bible COMMANDING us to seek God.

Acts 16:14​

“And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.”

Faith is the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God~without which, it would be impossible for the flesh to have faith.

Actually, we need faith FIRST.
and THEN we get the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Lydia's heart was already WITH GOD...she already believed in GOD...see Romans 1:19-20 GOD REVEALED HIMSELF TO ALL MANKIND.
Lydia's heart was OPENED TO THE GOSPEL....
she came to believe IN JESUS.

Galatians 5:22​

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,”

Sorry RB.....Galatians 5:22 reads that the fruit of the Holy Spirit is FAITHFULNESS...
NOT FAITH. We need FAITH BEFORE we get the holy Spirit.

Audio​ Cross​ Study​ Comm​ Greek​ ​ Verse (Click for Chapter)​ New International Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, New Living Translation​ But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, English Standard Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Berean Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Berean Literal Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, King James Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, New King James Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, New American Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, NASB 1995​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, NASB 1977​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Legacy Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Amplified Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit [the result of His presence within us] is love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Christian Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Holman Christian Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, American Standard Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Contemporary English Version​ God's Spirit makes us loving, happy, peaceful, patient, kind, good, faithful, English Revised Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, GOD'S WORD® Translation​ But the spiritual nature produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Good News Translation​ But the Spirit produces love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, International Standard Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Majority Standard Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, NET Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, New Heart English Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Webster's Bible Translation​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Weymouth New Testament​ The Spirit, on the other hand, brings a harvest of love, joy, peace; patience towards others, kindness, benevolence; World English Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, Literal Translations​ Literal Standard Version​ And the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, Berean Literal Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Young's Literal Translation​ And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, Smith's Literal Translation​ And the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faith, Catholic Translations​ Douay-Rheims Bible​ But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Catholic Public Domain Version​ But the fruit of the Spirit is charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, forbearance, New American Bible​ In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, New Revised Standard Version​ By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, Translations from Aramaic​ Lamsa Bible​ But the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, Aramaic Bible in Plain English​ But the fruits of The Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, sweetness, goodness, faith, NT Translations​ Anderson New Testament​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness, Godbey New Testament​ But the fruit of the Spirit is divine love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, Haweis New Testament​ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity,​

​

2nd Peter 1:1​

“Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:”

Where's the problem with 2 Peter 1:1?
As through one man sinned entered the world...
so through the other righteousness came...
All Christians believe this...
what do you THINK it means?
Here's what it means:

Romans 5:17-19
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[Red Baker]

We are saved by FAITH ....and not by works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
No amount of works can save us.
NOW....if you want to discuss if works are necessary AFTER we're saved...that is a different topic which I'm willing to discuss.
Ephesians 2:10 WE ARE CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS....

Salvation in all denominations is BY FAITH ALONE.
It is by the GRACE OF GOD...
It is a FREE GIFT for anyone that would like to open that gift box.
There are NO WORKS involved...it's free.

I address this below, I desire for you and anyone else to address my comments below. I'm not interesting what ALL denominations believe and teach no more than Christ was concerning the cults of his day and truly, neither should you be. Who ready cares what the majority teach ~ the early church was without question in the minority and always have been since and in the latter days of the last days, it will get smaller and smaller and smaller, much like Noah's day!

Luke 18:7,8​

“And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?”

Please address:

Fran, I dare say that you truly understand Ephesians 2:8,9, very few do. even some of God's best children do not.

I just went over these scriptures recently but will do so again.

Ephesians 2:7-9​

“That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.