Who was the Book of John Addressed to?

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Greetings dear sister,

Some things in religion are confusing,

Sorry Red,,,,I realize you don't know me well enough yet,,,
but I didn't mean that I find Christianity confusing...
I meant that what YOU were saying is confusing.
I'm not checking back to see what it was, but let me make this clear
CHRISTIANITY IS NOT CONFUSING.

God inspired the entire bible so we could get to know Him.
The NT, specifically, was to teach us about the New Covenant and how to enter into it for salvation.

(mainly folks that profess, I fully understand different teaching, and why) that I leave it in God's hands. I have close friends that I believe love and fear God, yet strongly disagree with me, not only concerning Soteriology, but on almost everything, from eschatology, church government, you name it they go the other way. Nevertheless, I just show them the kindness of God and we have no fellowship, and go our separate ways. And I submit to such scriptures as:

2 Timothy 2:19​

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Yes sir. God certainly knows those that are His.
Here's the difference between me and you:
I believe ANYONE could come to salvation IF they WANT to.
YOU believe that those saved were saved from the beginning through no choice of theirs and
for no apparent reason.
This is a big difference.
You say you submit to this verse/scripture.

So what exactly are you submitting to?
EVERY Christian believes God knows those that are His.

Are you perhaps reading something into this verse that is not stated?

Even when I do not.

I know too well, what they say, yet as soon as the words come out of their mouth, they will boldly and forcefully push salvation by their own works.

Fran, faith on man's part is a work, and if a work, then it had to be a work of the old man, "A.K.A" the flesh! That goes against just about every teaching in every NT book from Matthew to Revelation. That is another gospel that God Almighty has put a curse upon.

Faith is not a work because Paul states it clearly.
Do we believe ALL of the NT or just the parts we like?

Romans 4:2-5
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 3:28
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 11:6
6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.


We are saved by FAITH ....and not by works.
Ephesians 2:8-9
No amount of works can save us.
NOW....if you want to discuss if works are necessary AFTER we're saved...that is a different topic which I'm willing to discuss.
Ephesians 2:10 WE ARE CREATED FOR GOOD WORKS....

Salvation in all denominations is BY FAITH ALONE.
It is by the GRACE OF GOD...
It is a FREE GIFT for anyone that would like to open that gift box.
There are NO WORKS involved...it's free.

Fran, this is the word of the Living God, I did not write them, but, I do believe in each and every word herein and so must you. The flesh, or, the old man which is all the unregenerate sinner has to be a means of pleasing God, yet the scriptures clearly said to us, that the flesh/old man is not subject to the law of God, and neither indeed can be!

You don't post scripture....you should.
However, you say the flesh is not subject to the law of God.
AGREED!
The lost are not subject to God's commandments.
Why would they be?
They're lost....they can't be more lost than lost.

It's the BELIEVER that is subject to obeying God.
It is US that Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 7:23....
we are the wise builders that listened and obeyed.

Knowing this truth, pray to tell me just how a sinner can do anything as far as being born again, anything. To say that he can, is to call God a liar, for God's word has spoken and it is right before our eyes to see the truth. Why would any man be so bold to go against what is clearly written by the Spirit of the Living God truly amazes me, and still hear them say, they trust the word of God, when their opportunity to prove it, they fight against God's testimony of what he has written for our learning. That's the spirit of the man of sin working through such folks, who as children of God can see their strong delusion, especially so in light of such scriptures as Romans 8, etc.

You'll have to post some scripture Red....
You'll have to post some scripture that supports your claim that man is not able to seek God...
That the NT has no conditions by which a person can be saved....

Where is this clearly written?
What I see written is that the NT was written SPECIFICALLY so that we can know HOW to become saved.
Is there another reason why it was written?
IF you believe so,,,please post scripture as to the WHY we have the NT.


Here's one reason:
1 John 1:1-4
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life -
2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-
3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.


John goes on to state HOW to achieve this joy for which he writes.

Fran, it is called rightly dividing the word of truth. The sinner who is not first born of God, is seen in Romans 3; whereas, the many hundreds of scriptures teaching us to seek, etc., can only be applied to those already children of God,

Excuse me Red.
If we're ALREADY BORN OF GOD
WHY would we need to seek God?

We are implored to SEEK GOD both in the OT and the NT ---there are tens of verses -I think you know them....
So you're saying that we're to seek God AFTER we've already found Him?

Again...scripture please.

or, only those that are can truly heed what is being spoken. It is not that hard to separate and understand especially so when we adhere to the teaching of the depravity of man apart from the grace of God shown to the sinner. I read for devotion last night to the grandchildren:

John 2:25​

“And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.”

So?
All Christians believe man is born depraved and with a sin nature....flesh...concupiscense...call it what you will.

WHERE does it state that this makes man UNABLE to seek after God?
NOWHERE.

Scripture please.

And it is not good, not even close!

Dear soul, they present no problem to me, and neither should they to you.

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

Praise be to the Lord! May God, who is gracious above all, be so to you precious friend. But, one question to my dear sister:

1st Corinthians 4:7​

“For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”

Fran, it was the Lord that cause you to leave ~many never do, especially being so close to Rome as far as living where you do.. Amazing grace indeed to our sister!

Red....The scriptures present no problem to me.
I don't need Strong's to understand a verse....
and I don't need to twist verse as Calvinists do to make them read what they would like them to read.
I don't add to scripture either.

And forget about Rome. That was 40 years ago.
What I said is this:
IF I could come out of a denomination...
anyone could.

It takes going through scripture on your own and understanding it before
some denomination washes your brain out.

Whatever one is taught
MUST align with scripture and MUST make sense - and I mean logical sense.

Maybe God's ways are not our ways...
but Jesus didn't go to that cross so we could be confused about the gospel
and/or not understand what we need to do in order to be saved.

 

[GodsGrace]

@MTMattie

Let the word of God answer this for you.

Romans 8:28-34​

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Many will immediately after just quoting scriptures as I'm now doing, will rise up and say: I do not believe what you are saying, when all we have done so far is quote the word of God ~ that has happened so many times over the last fifty plus years of proclaiming God's testimony concerning his truth. I think you are one of the many.

​

In these scriptures one shall see the Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, "not" what He foreknew.

WHOM God FOREKNEW
is different from
GOD DECREEING WHO WILL BE SAVED.

KNOWING is different from PREDESTINATING.

What God foreknew about us was sinful rebellion, without exception (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3). He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matt 7:23; Ps 5:5; 11:5). He loved His elect from everlasting, and always shall (Jer 31:3; Eph 1:4; 5:25; Rev 13:8). God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Eph 1:3-6).

Post a couple of your verse in parenthesis (as if we're supposed to know the bible word for word by heart)
and then explain HOW they mean that the person is depraved...YES
but UNABLE to come to salvation.....
THIS it does NOT state....
because it cannot...because man has free will and can decide if he wishes to be saved.

God loves THE WHOLE WORLD
John 3:16
AND NOT ONLY THE ELECT.

Please post scripture.

Predestination, though hated and unpopular today, is a Bible doctrine we should and do love.

No Red.
PREDESTINATION is a heresy.
A Heresy.

Find out what a heresy is please.

This Bible doctrine, which makes me a predestinarian Baptists, is here and in Eph 1:5,11. What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand.

Could you PLEASE post Eph 1:5-11 and show HOW it is stating that you were chosen by God before time began.
Thanks.

There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass? Arminians have God predestinating men to the lake of fire just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

This is a problem you have because you do not believe in free will.

When we wander from the teachings of the bible...
they become confusing and not understandable.

Those of us that believe in free will have NO PROBLEM with any scripture.

Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election! God’s purpose in creating the world and saving sinners is to build His family through Christ. God will do all that is necessary, which is considerable, to make sinners look like Jesus! Among the children of God, which He gave to Christ to save, Jesus will be preeminent! The drama of the whole universe is God’s display of saving grace in perfecting sinners! This references glorification rather than conversion, as scripture and experience prove, for we reject any doctrine of perseverance that guarantees practical sanctification. We shall be joint-heirs with Jesus as brothers, but He shall be the Firstborn (Col 1:15-18). We shall enjoy the fullest joy possible, as we will be glorified sons of God (Ist John 3:1-3). A day is coming, described here (8:17-25), when Jesus will own us as family (Heb 2:13). The basis and ground of the liberty of the sons of God is God’s predestination (8:29-30).

We shall stop and may come back and say more....

I believe @MTMattie will probably not agree with you because no other denomination does.
But we'll see.
ONLY the reformed/calvinists believe as they do.
This is why it's a heretical teaching.

Heretical means to teach something that is different from the accepted rules/norms/ conditions/ teachings of any matter,
especially theological.
Calvinism is not orthodox (small o).

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie

Thank you Red. You answered me honestly and with full conviction as you always do. But... I had asked " If one is not of the "predestined" belief. Will that doom them to miss out on a heavenly eternity?" And reading the following... I guess so.

Let the word of God answer this for you.

Romans 8:28-34​

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Many will immediately after just quoting scriptures as I'm now doing, will rise up and say: I do not believe what you are saying, when all we have done so far is quote the word of God ~ that has happened so many times over the last fifty plus years of proclaiming God's testimony concerning his truth. I think you are one of the many.

​

In these scriptures one shall see the Spirit’s carefully chosen words say it is whom He foreknew, "not" what He foreknew.

What God foreknew about us was sinful rebellion, without exception (Ps 14:1-3; 53:1-3). He shall deny He ever knew the wicked – He never loved them (Matt 7:23; Ps 5:5; 11:5). He loved His elect from everlasting, and always shall (Jer 31:3; Eph 1:4; 5:25; Rev 13:8). God’s choice and love of the elect also predestinated them to adoption (see Eph 1:3-6).

Predestination, though hated and unpopular today, is a Bible doctrine we should and do love.

This Bible doctrine, which makes me a predestinarian Baptists, is here and in Eph 1:5,11. What does it mean? It means God determined and guaranteed our destination beforehand. There is no logical way to believe the God of the Bible and reject predestination of men. If God knows all that will happen on certain conditions, why did He bring them to pass? Arminians have God predestinating men to the lake of fire

CORRECTION: THAT WOULD BE THE KING OF PREDESTINATION... JOHN CALVIN WHO WROTE....

Predestination According to Calvin (here is the link: https://www.theologian-theology.com/theologians/john-calvin-predestination/)​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).
You see Red. Under predestination, Calvin style and Westminster Confession of Faith style
God pick those to be saved, and god chose those to be denied salvation. And if you say that is not so... Calvin would tell you you are wrong.
It is alright. Calvin said we would die. Its just the lake of fire I dont want any part of..
and you always indicated there was none...
Thank you again.

just as much as any doctrine of salvation.

Predestination precedes, rather than follows, conforming, for it is unconditional election! God’s purpose in creating the world and saving sinners is to build His family through Christ. God will do all that is necessary, which is considerable, to make sinners look like Jesus! Among the children of God, which He gave to Christ to save, Jesus will be preeminent! The drama of the whole universe is God’s display of saving grace in perfecting sinners! This references glorification rather than conversion, as scripture and experience prove, for we reject any doctrine of perseverance that guarantees practical sanctification. We shall be joint-heirs with Jesus as brothers, but He shall be the Firstborn (Col 1:15-18). We shall enjoy the fullest joy possible, as we will be glorified sons of God (Ist John 3:1-3). A day is coming, described here (8:17-25), when Jesus will own us as family (Heb 2:13). The basis and ground of the liberty of the sons of God is God’s predestination (8:29-30).

We shall stop and may come back and say more....

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you Red. You answered me honestly and with full conviction as you always do. But... I had asked " If one is not of the "predestined" belief. Will that doom them to miss out on a heavenly eternity?" And reading the following... I guess so.


CORRECTION: THAT WOULD BE THE KING OF PREDESTINATION... JOHN CALVIN WHO WROTE....

Predestination According to Calvin (here is the link: https://www.theologian-theology.com/theologians/john-calvin-predestination/)​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).
You see Red. Under predestination, Calvin style and Westminster Confession of Faith style
God pick those to be saved, and god chose those to be denied salvation. And if you say that is not so... Calvin would tell you you are wrong.
It is alright. Calvin said we would die. Its just the lake of fire I dont want any part of..
and you always indicated there was none...
Thank you again.

You're right MT.
Not only are you right....
but if you read the Institutes that John Calvin wrote...you'd find that Calvinists
CANNOT BE SECURE IN THEIR SALVATION.

How do you like that?
Calvinism goes against everything that Jesus taught and that the NT teaches.

Besides which....doctrine will not save anyone...
but only belief in God and obedience to God.

 

[Red Baker]

Besides which....doctrine will not save anyone...
but only belief in God and obedience to God.

@GodsGrace

Fran, look for a post sometime later today, or first thing in the morning. Fran, glad you came out of Catholicism, but your doctrine is still 100% agreeable with them and you unite with them against the true gospel of the grace of God, and that I will prove to you, God being my helper.

I'm glad you were more forceful in your post to me, this time, which in turn allows me to do the same. Sometimes we move slow and easy with folks since we do not know them, yet, we truly need to be as forceful as we should be, in order to help, and to let others know how firm is our conviction to the truth.

As far as providing scriptures proof, trust there will be plenty for you to consider.

Besides which....doctrine will not save anyone...
but only belief in God and obedience to God.

So wrong~the only means that saves anyone from sin and condemnation is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ; our faith and obedience is at best is only evidence of one's salvation which Christ alone secured for God's elect.

 

[MTMattie]

You're right MT.
Not only are you right....
but if you read the Institutes that John Calvin wrote...you'd find that Calvinists
CANNOT BE SECURE IN THEIR SALVATION.

How do you like that?
Calvinism goes against everything that Jesus taught and that the NT teaches.

Besides which....doctrine will not save anyone...
but only belief in God and obedience to God.

Right,

But the interesting thing about predestined believers.... NOT ALL follow Calvin. Therefore they will discount what he said.

" only belief in God and obedience to God." But I will add Faith in Jesus to this.

 

[Red Baker]

CHRISTIANITY IS NOT CONFUSING.

It is not, but religion and religious folk are, that's all I meant.

God inspired the entire bible so we could get to know Him.
The NT, specifically, was to teach us about the New Covenant and how to enter into it for salvation.

I agree with your first statement.

Your second statement is wrong, and only shows your lack of knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ.

The New covenant is a covenant of pure grace; a gospel of good news, concerning how God made Jesus to be sin for his people, that they might be made the righteousness of God based upon what he secured for them, by his faith and obedience. 2nd Corinthians 5:17-19; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9

The New covenant was never given to show man how to enter into it for salvation! That's the message of the first old covenant, under which God found fault with man, not his covenant but man being unable to obey in order to inherit eternal life.

Hebrews 8:7,8​

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:”

The New Covenant is based upon two immutable acts of God...his oath and promises of grace to the seed of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:13-19.

Here's the difference between me and you: I believe ANYONE could come to salvation IF they WANT to. YOU believe that those saved were saved from the beginning through no choice of theirs and for no apparent reason. This is a big difference.

The difference is one is by the works of the flesh, (yours) the other is totally of God. One has God's curse pronounced upon it, because it is another gospel pure and simple. The other is of God approved by him and preached by his apostles and all of those whom God has called.

What does John 1:13 mean to you Fran? Honestly, what does it mean?

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Which were born.

What plurality was born – not by three rejected means – but by one true means? The plural pronoun which refers to a plurality of those that believe on Christ. The plural verb were refers to this plurality of those believing on the Lord. Those that received Jesus Christ were the exact same ones believing on Him. Those believing on Jesus Christ in the present were already the sons of God. When were they born – based on actual verb tenses – rather than order of verbs? The phrase were born is a plural number, passive voice, present-perfect verb tense, demanding the action was finished, or perfected, before the present. Rejoice in the grammar of regeneration, which demands birth before faith. Of course they were born naturally before faith, but this is being born again. Let it be settled once and for all time, regeneration always precedes faith.

Not of blood.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with natural descent, pedigree, etc. The Jews especially had this problem, for they trusted in Abraham (Luke 3:8). Descent and nationalism were real problems of Jews (Is 48:1-8; Ro 2:17-29). Paul declared Abraham’s children are not the children of God (Rom 9:6-8). We are the seed of Abraham, for we are Christ’s, his true Seed (Ga 3:16,29).

Nor of the will of the flesh.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with "your natural will or choice." This phrase condemns the decisional regeneration heresy of Arminian fools. These heretics will do anything to elicit a choice by the flesh to get saved. They talk ad nauseam about the simplicity of getting yourself born again. Prior to being born again, all you have is a flesh nature that is denied here. Not only is the will of the flesh denied, but it is impossible for it to so will. A man in the flesh cannot and will not please God; he is a depraved rebel. God’s compassion and mercy are by His own will, not man’s (Rom 9:15-16). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). Only God’s will is active (John 3:8; 5:21; Eph 1:5; Jas 1:18; Heb 10:9-10).

What is the will of the flesh that is rejected here as the means of regeneration? You have two natures – one by first birth and one by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6). The will of the flesh is all you have before regeneration – the sinful you. Therefore, this phrase denies any choice or act of will before regeneration! Until you are born again, this is the only will you have – that of the flesh. Paul denied that anything you do in the flesh can please God (Rom 8:7-8).

Nor of the will of man.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with the will of anyone outside you. This phrase condemns parental efforts to save infants as in Roman Catholicism. By far the most popular method of salvation of Christians is infant baptism. Parents take children to some priest to be baptized to become God’s child. The parents choose godparents to guarantee the child of God will be taught There is nothing a parent can do to assist or cooperate for salvation (Ps 49:6-9). No other man has any influence on you being born again, except for One Man!

The work of salvation is all found in one man’s obedience (Rom 5:12-19). There is no place for parents, pastors, priests, or soul winners for eternal life. In Him was life! He is the Life! He is resurrection and life! He has the keys!

But of God.

Becoming God’s son by being born again is His monergistic, sovereign work. John called it being born again from Jesus (Jn 3:1-8; I Jn 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5,18). James and Peter also refer to it as a birth or begetting (Jas 1:18; I Pet 1:3,23). Paul used quickening (Ep 2:1-3; Col 2:13), regeneration, renewing (Tit 3:5). This creative work by God’s power gives each elect person a new spiritual man. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Eph 2:10). This work by God Himself is compared to wind blowing by Jesus (Jn 3:8). This is the work of Christ Jesus raising dead souls to spiritual life (Jn 5:25). It is called a quickening of man from his natural state of spiritual death.

Regeneration should never be considered outside the full operation of salvation. If God does not quicken a person, they will never receive Christ (I Co 2:14). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). God only quickens some, so they are those elected to eternal life (Ac 13:48).

Just getting started, bear with me..

 

[GodsGrace]

Right,

But the interesting thing about predestined believers.... NOT ALL follow Calvin. Therefore they will discount what he said.

" only belief in God and obedience to God." But I will add Faith in Jesus to this.

Well Jesus IS GOD....same difference!

I know that not all call themselves Calvinists...
but we're talking about a nuance here.

If a person believes in the TULIP bullet points...
he's a Calvinist. Simple.

The Confessions, BTW, make Calvinism softer, but they still agree with TULIP.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Fran, look for a post sometime later today, or first thing in the morning. Fran, glad you came out of Catholicism, but your doctrine is still 100% agreeable with them and you unite with them against the true gospel of the grace of God, and that I will prove to you, God being my helper.

I'm glad you were more forceful in your post to me, this time, which in turn allows me to do the same. Sometimes we move slow and easy with folks since we do not know them, yet, we truly need to be as forceful as we should be, in order to help, and to let others know how firm is our conviction to the truth.

As far as providing scriptures proof, trust there will be plenty for you to consider.

So wrong~the only means that saves anyone from sin and condemnation is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ; our faith and obedience is at best is only evidence of one's salvation which Christ alone secured for God's elect.

My reply is to your last sentence....not much to say on the rest.
You might want to show me how I'm Catholic sometimes since MOST of Protestant denominations agree with my understanding of the gospels.

I said that doctrine will not save anyone.
Only belief in God and obedience to God.
So, IOW, if YOU are wrong in your doctrine,,,
you believe you're headed downward instead of heaven?
Paul speaks about losing FAITH in the NT
He does NOT mention doctrine saving anyone...
unless you could show this.

YOU replied that only Jesus can secure our salvation.
IS JESUS NOT GOD??
Are you saying there's a difference between God and Jesus? One is Father and one is Son...2 person, ONE AND THE SAME GOD.
Right?

And you go on to say that Christ secured salvation ONLY for God's elect?
I think you must be aware that even some Reformed/Calvinist theologians do not accept LIMITED ATONEMENT.
But that's another topic. I did mention
1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...not just the sins of the saved.
As Adam sold us to satan....everyone...
so Jesus bought us back....everyone.

But only those who FREELY accept God's gift of salvation will experience the outcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not, but religion and religious folk are, that's all I meant.

I agree with your first statement.

Your second statement is wrong, and only shows your lack of knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus Christ.

You're going to have to stop telling me I lack knowledge.
You'd be banned for a month for doing this on another forum.

Because I DO NOT agree with you does not mean I'm not knowledgeable.

The New covenant is a covenant of pure grace; a gospel of good news,

The Covenant of Grace, as Reformed call it...
is otherwise known, in all of Christianity,
as the New Covenant.
You even give Covenants a different title.
And since you bring up that it's a gospel of good news...
here's a question for you:

WHAT IS THE GOOD NEWS in the gospel according to the reformed?
I don't see any since God is going to choose who He chooses no matter what.

Why even write a NT??
I asked you WHY the NT was written if not to teach us how to be saved.
Maybe you'll reply down below.

concerning how God made Jesus to be sin for his people, that they might be made the righteousness of God based upon what he secured for them, by his faith and obedience. 2nd Corinthians 5:17-19; Galatians 2:16; Philippians 3:9

Are we in THEOLOGY or APOLOGETICS?
I think so.

In serious conversation we POST THE SCRIPTURE...we don't just list it.

BUT ANYWAY...

Did you just say that we're saved by THE FAITH OF JESUS?
And you found 3 verses that state this?
Please POST THE SCRIPTURE.

The New covenant was never given to show man how to enter into it for salvation! That's the message of the first old covenant, under which God found fault with man, not his covenant but man being unable to obey in order to inherit eternal life.

Could you please name the Covenant you're speaking of?

Could you please explain WHY God made the New Covenant...
which is UNCONDITIONAL AND UNILATERAL....

And could you please tell us the difference between the Mosaic Covenant (which I THINK is what you're alluding to)
and the New Covenant?
Thanks.

Hebrews 8:7,8​

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:”

The Mosaic Covenant was with fault only because MAN did not keep his part of the bargain.
That Covenant was CONDITIONA AND BILATERAL.

Man's part was to obey God.
He did not.

Please explain why we're discussing Covenants.

The New Covenant is based upon two immutable acts of God...his oath and promises of grace to the seed of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 6:13-19.

The difference is one is by the works of the flesh, (yours) the other is totally of God. One has God's curse pronounced upon it, because it is another gospel pure and simple. The other is of God approved by him and preached by his apostles and all of those whom God has called.

The other is TOTALLY OF GOD?
You mean the New Covenant?
It is totally by God....correct.
God makes it available, through Christ, to ALL MEN as was promised in the Abrahamic Covenant.
God does surely keep His promises.

So here, I'll save you some brain power:
The difference between the Mosaic and the New Covenant is the HOLY SPIRIT.

God demands obedience....IN ALL COVENANTS.

He demanded obedience in the Mosaic but they were unable.
He demands obedience in the New, and has sent His Holy Spirit to be our paraclete.
OBEDIENCE is still necessary.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Look at that Red...
Not only does John tell us HOW we can be saved - and it's by BELIEVING in the Son .
but
John also tells us how NOT to be saved --- by disobeying God.
No talk there of predestination to salvation...
as also there is no such talk in all of the NT.

What does John 1:13 mean to you Fran? Honestly, what does it mean?

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Which were born.

What plurality was born – not by three rejected means – but by one true means? The plural pronoun which refers to a plurality of those that believe on Christ. The plural verb were refers to this plurality of those believing on the Lord. Those that received Jesus Christ were the exact same ones believing on Him. Those believing on Jesus Christ in the present were already the sons of God. When were they born – based on actual verb tenses – rather than order of verbs? The phrase were born is a plural number, passive voice, present-perfect verb tense, demanding the action was finished, or perfected, before the present. Rejoice in the grammar of regeneration, which demands birth before faith. Of course they were born naturally before faith, but this is being born again. Let it be settled once and for all time, regeneration always precedes faith.

Not of blood.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with natural descent, pedigree, etc. The Jews especially had this problem, for they trusted in Abraham (Luke 3:8). Descent and nationalism were real problems of Jews (Is 48:1-8; Ro 2:17-29). Paul declared Abraham’s children are not the children of God (Rom 9:6-8). We are the seed of Abraham, for we are Christ’s, his true Seed (Ga 3:16,29).

Agreed.

Nor of the will of the flesh.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with "your natural will or choice." This phrase condemns the decisional regeneration heresy of Arminian fools. These heretics will do anything to elicit a choice by the flesh to get saved. They talk ad nauseam about the simplicity of getting yourself born again. Prior to being born again, all you have is a flesh nature that is denied here. Not only is the will of the flesh denied, but it is impossible for it to so will. A man in the flesh cannot and will not please God; he is a depraved rebel. God’s compassion and mercy are by His own will, not man’s (Rom 9:15-16). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). Only God’s will is active (John 3:8; 5:21; Eph 1:5; Jas 1:18; Heb 10:9-10).

The will of the flesh is works.
The Jews bloodline did not save them.

And their works could not save them.
Paul makes this very clear.
Ephesians 2:8-9 clarifies this:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Also see John 1:11...it clearly states that His own did not accept/receive Him.....accept denotes a free will.+
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

But check out John 1:12
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
John explains who will be saved:
Those WHO RECEIVE Christ....to them He gave the right to become children of God.
No talk of predestination to salvation.

What is the will of the flesh that is rejected here as the means of regeneration? You have two natures – one by first birth and one by spiritual birth (Jn 3:6). The will of the flesh is all you have before regeneration – the sinful you. Therefore, this phrase denies any choice or act of will before regeneration! Until you are born again, this is the only will you have – that of the flesh. Paul denied that anything you do in the flesh can please God (Rom 8:7-8).

Nor of the will of man.

Becoming a child of God has nothing to do with the will of anyone outside you. This phrase condemns parental efforts to save infants as in Roman Catholicism. By far the most popular method of salvation of Christians is infant baptism. Parents take children to some priest to be baptized to become God’s child. The parents choose godparents to guarantee the child of God will be taught There is nothing a parent can do to assist or cooperate for salvation (Ps 49:6-9). No other man has any influence on you being born again, except for One Man!

The work of salvation is all found in one man’s obedience (Rom 5:12-19). There is no place for parents, pastors, priests, or soul winners for eternal life. In Him was life! He is the Life! He is resurrection and life! He has the keys!

But of God.

Becoming God’s son by being born again is His monergistic, sovereign work. John called it being born again from Jesus (Jn 3:1-8; I Jn 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-5,18). James and Peter also refer to it as a birth or begetting (Jas 1:18; I Pet 1:3,23). Paul used quickening (Ep 2:1-3; Col 2:13), regeneration, renewing (Tit 3:5). This creative work by God’s power gives each elect person a new spiritual man. We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Eph 2:10). This work by God Himself is compared to wind blowing by Jesus (Jn 3:8). This is the work of Christ Jesus raising dead souls to spiritual life (Jn 5:25). It is called a quickening of man from his natural state of spiritual death.

Of course monergism is not biblical.
If it was,,,,Jesus preached for nothing since HE was going to do it all.

Instead He spent over 3 years preaching about what He expected from us:
John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
WE MUST ABIDE IN CHRIST.

Matthew 22:37-38
37'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. ' This is the first and great commandment. 38And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
WE MUST LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR.

Matthew 24:46
46 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.


There's plenty more if it's needed.
But it's difficult to understand why 3 statements of Jesus are not enough.

Regeneration should never be considered outside the full operation of salvation. If God does not quicken a person, they will never receive Christ (I Co 2:14). If you ever will good to God, it is He that worked it in you (Phil 2:12-13). God only quickens some, so they are those elected to eternal life (Ac 13:48).

Just getting started, bear with me..

So now you want to bring up regeneration before salvation.
And you have your verses in parenthesis again.

You're all over the place Red.
Please post the verses you believe support your theory that we have to be born again
before we can be born again.
Since. a regenerated person is a born again person....THIS in effect, is what you're stating.

No problem...I'm really patient.
But it's late here....tomorrow.