Who Exactly is the Church?

[jeremiah1five]

Paul includes gentiles here

Ephesians 2:11–22 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Acts 15:1–21 (ESV) — 1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” 12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 “ ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, 17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’ 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

In Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Ephesus he writes about circumcised Gentile proselytes who are allied with the commonwealth of Israel, are citizens, obey the Torah, committed to raise their family in obedience to the Torah and are included with uncircumcised Gentile God-Fearers, who are also allied with Israel and obey the Torah but have not completed their circumcision. These would be in the synagogue on sabbath and were the first Gentiles to hear witness from other Jews about Israel's Messiah Jesus Christ.

In Acts Luke is writing about Roman, Scythian, Greek Gentiles who are outside the commonwealth of Israel although they've come to faith, and it needed to be decided what to do with these Gentiles and the solution was to give them four precepts of the Torah to obey "and it will be well with them."
These (proselytes, God-Fearers, Gentiles) may be joined to Christ, but they are not joined to any of the Jewish/Hebrew Covenants for the Abrahamic Covenant is with Abraham and his seed and Gentiles do not come from his seed and in this cannot ever be in any of the covenants God made with the Hebrew/Jewish people.

 

[TomL]

In Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Ephesus he writes about circumcised Gentile proselytes who are allied with the commonwealth of Israel, are citizens, obey the Torah, committed to raise their family in obedience to the Torah and are included with uncircumcised Gentile God-Fearers, who are also allied with Israel and obey the Torah but have not completed their circumcision. These would be in the synagogue on sabbath and were the first Gentiles to hear witness from other Jews about Israel's Messiah Jesus Christ.

In Acts Luke is writing about Roman, Scythian, Greek Gentiles who are outside the commonwealth of Israel although they've come to faith, and it needed to be decided what to do with these Gentiles and the solution was to give them four precepts of the Torah to obey "and it will be well with them."
These (proselytes, God-Fearers, Gentiles) may be joined to Christ, but they are not joined to any of the Jewish/Hebrew Covenants for the Abrahamic Covenant is with Abraham and his seed and Gentiles do not come from his seed and in this cannot ever be in any of the covenants God made with the Hebrew/Jewish people.

Um All gentiles are under the new covenant which fulfills the promise to Abraham that all the families of the earth would be blessed in him

 

[koberstein]

I made a comment identifying "Gentile Church" differentiating it from the Jewish Church in our present era of Times of the Gentiles, to which @EclipseEventSigns responded "there is no Gentile Church" in which he is attempting to identify "the Church" in the New Covenant writings as being a Church including both Jew and Gentile, which for the purpose of the beginnings of the Church from Pentecost onward to the destruction of the Jewish Temple I disagreed. After further consideration I have to agree with @EclipseEventSigns that [the] Gentile Church does not exist, which it doesn't. The term "Church" has a sole identification as being a term/word identifying Jews and not Gentiles and that the mention in the New Covenant writings where the word "Church" occurs always refers to the Jewish Church of people alone for the word finds its origin in the Hebrew Scriptures identifying the "Great Congregation" in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle and in all future mentions. The word in Greek itself "ekkelsia" means "called out [ones]" and this is exactly what God did in calling out His people and delivering them from bondage in Egypt. In my constant desire to be accurate where the Holy Scripture is concerned, I thought it necessary to bring out these facts and that although there is no such thing as a "Gentile Church", to be as true to Scripture as is my purpose and to bring out this teaching and clarify the biblical response and my position and these truths in my Biblical Christianity. Let me also clarify that this Feast is a one-day occurrence and I correct myself when I said it lasted for seven days, confusing it with another Feast that did last seven days. Therefore, I submit the following:

The Feast of Weeks, alternatively called the Feast of Harvest or Pentecost, celebrated the grain harvest and the renewal of the covenant. It is named for the seven weeks separating it from the Passover celebration. The Feast of Weeks celebrated the entrance into the promised land and its bounty (Lev 23:10).
The Feast of Weeks was marked by the offering of the firstfruits of the grain harvest. In contrast to the Passover feast, this grain offering explicitly included leaven (Lev 23:17). Meat offerings of bulls, a ram, and seven lambs were also required (Num 28:27). Deuteronomy indicates that the Feast of Weeks was to be celebrated at the temple once it had been established (Deut. 16:11). This makes the Feast of Weeks one of the pilgrimage feasts. The date of the feast is “from the day after the Sabbath” (Lev 23:15); it generally falls around the sixth of Sivan.
The Book of Jubilees indicates that the Feast of Weeks included a covenant-renewal ceremony. Thus, the festival may have (at one time) been called the Feast of Oaths (שְׁבֻעוֹת, shevu'oth) rather than the Feast of Weeks (שָׁבֻעוֹת, shavu'oth). The ceremony reflects the renewal of the covenant prior to the entry into the land (Deuteronomy) and after the conquest of the land (Josh. 24).

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. Acts 2:1.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Acts 2:46–47.

Being at a Jewish Feast that required Jewish males to be present and the fact that this celebration drew in Jews from Gentile lands as the placing of the various tongues spoken in the early verses indicate on a map, it was these conversions and ones after that in which these Jews returned to their homes and synagogues in these various cities and towns (Corinth, Ephesus, Galatia, Philippi, etc.), which formed the core of Jewish Christian fellowships and the beginnings of the Jewish Church as covenanted and prophesied in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Church the Jesus Christ promised to build. And for the next four decades and beyond while the Temple remained everything about the events described in the New Covenant Scriptures clearly record that the Jews and Jewish Christians being affected by arrival of both Messiah and the Holy Spirit all things were seen through the lens of Judaism and a Jewish mindset as all things going to the New Covenant prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel (and Judah), true Biblical Christianity is contained within Jewish history, customs, and culture and that hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles were not included in any of the Hebrew/Jewish Covenants God made with a people later to be identified as "children of Israel" and just "Israel." There is no mention in the Hebrew Scriptures of the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets of God making covenant with any Gentile or seed of Gentiles and the fact that since the destruction of the Temple the world in part had entered an epoch of what is identified as the Times of the Gentiles, which in my estimation will continue until the destruction of the Gentile nations in the near future but has been evidenced by the bringing in of Gentiles to elect-salvation as prophesied in the Hebrew Scripture. In effect, God is saving hard-core, uncircumcised Gentiles without a covenant and for His own purposes. In conclusion, with 3000 Jews being saved on the Day of Pentecost and the Lord adding to His Church (of Jewish Christians) daily, and for the next four decades until destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., it is not unreasonable to conclude the Church (of Jews) Christ promised to build would have upwards of over tens of thousands of born-again, Spirit-filled Jews that populated Jewish home churches until soon after the destruction of the Temple and that the Church was indeed founded upon Jewish apostles and Jewish prophets in general, and upon Jesus Christ specifically.
To reiterate, there is no such thing as @EclipseEventSigns says, a "Gentile Church."
The "Church" is a Jewish phenomenon and is populated predominantly by Jewish Christians as per covenant and prophecy.
Let those that read and understand these things I write come to the knowledge of the truth.

Labriut

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um All gentiles are under the new covenant which fulfills the promise to Abraham that all the families of the earth would be blessed in him

The Bible says differently.
Your doctrine on this question is in error. Look at the Scripture.
Believe the Scripture NOT the false theology of the Constantinian Gentile church.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
fI will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
Jer. 31:31–33.

Do you see WHO God has made His New Covenant WITH? Jeremiah says it is with the House of Israel (northern kingdom) and the House of Judah (southern kingdom.)
There is nowhere in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation God making covenant with Gentiles. None.
Unless you want to do two things in maintaining your false belief, and that is, add to the bible and to OPPOSE God's Word.

 

[TomL]

The Bible says differently.
Your doctrine on this question is in error. Look at the Scripture.
Believe the Scripture NOT the false theology of the Constantinian Gentile church.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
In the day that I took them by the hand
To bring them out of the land of Egypt;
Which my covenant they brake,
Although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
fI will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
Jer. 31:31–33.

Do you see WHO God has made His New Covenant WITH? Jeremiah says it is with the House of Israel (northern kingdom) and the House of Judah (southern kingdom.)
There is nowhere in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation God making covenant with Gentiles. None.
Unless you want to do two things in maintaining your false belief, and that is, add to the bible and to OPPOSE God's Word.

And he did and extended the new covenant to the gentiles

Ephesians 2:11–22 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.




b

 

[jeremiah1five]

And he did and extended the new covenant to the gentiles

Ephesians 2:11–22 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.




b

I don't know what bible translation you're reading - Book of Mormon or the JW's New World Translation - but this is what a covenant with God looks like. It has intent of covenant and covenant language:

9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; Gen. 9:9.

And here's another example:

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

And here's another:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:31.

The First Salvation Covenant is between God and Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and to his biological seed.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen.17:7.

Gentiles do not come from the seed of Abraham. If there was any 'extending' His covenant to anyone God extended His Promises to Isaac and then to Jacob, and then to Jacob's twelve sons also known as the Children of Jacob/Israel. God made three salvation covenants to Abraham and to his seed also known as the children of Israel of twelve tribes. But there is no Scripture where God makes covenant with Gentiles despite your heresy and misunderstanding of His Word. One more thing (if you are 'listening') is that now we know the Hebrew Scriptures are shadow to the substance that would later be revealed. Type and shadow. So, if there is no precedence in the Old Testament then there is no reality in the New Testament. The point being that God made no covenant with Gentiles in the Law, Psalms, or the Prophets (Hebrew Scripture.) None. Nada, zip, zero.

Saul's letter to the Jewish Church at Ephesus was written to Jewish Christians. Every letter we have in the canon written by Saul apart from his personal letters to Timothy was written to his Jewish brethren. Saul's reference to "strangers" and "foreigners" (and "sojourners") harkens back to the Old Testament Hebrew terminology of Gentiles in Abraham's house that were circumcised, and this includes servants. Abraham and Sarah had no children until Isaac and although these non-Hebrews that were circumcised received the blessings of Abraham but were not in the covenant God made with him as Gentiles do not come from the seed of Abraham. You are deeply infected with Gentile heresy and prefer these heresies rather than accept the Word of God for your doctrine and belief. I used to be so very deceived just as you are now, but God saw fit to open my eyes to His Word and as commanded I "come out from among them and became separate" from their deceptions. As I took a closer look at Gentile teaching of the past 1900 years, I began to see one heresy which led me to another heresy and then to yet another heresy held by the Gentile theology which once when they unmoored Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots the Gentile religion ceased to be Christ-ian (Messiah-ism) and became a new religion, one that has severed its ties to the Hebrew people and became a religion vaguely resembling anything found in Scripture. Your heresy and beliefs - as revealed by your misunderstanding of Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Ephesus - bears this out.

 

[TomL]

I don't know what bible translation you're reading - Book of Mormon or the JW's New World Translation - but this is what a covenant with God looks like. It has intent of covenant and covenant language:

9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; Gen. 9:9.

And here's another example:

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

And here's another:

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:31.

The First Salvation Covenant is between God and Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and to his biological seed.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen.17:7.

Gentiles do not come from the seed of Abraham. If there was any 'extending' His covenant to anyone God extended His Promises to Isaac and then to Jacob, and then to Jacob's twelve sons also known as the Children of Jacob/Israel. God made three salvation covenants to Abraham and to his seed also known as the children of Israel of twelve tribes. But there is no Scripture where God makes covenant with Gentiles despite your heresy and misunderstanding of His Word. One more thing (if you are 'listening') is that now we know the Hebrew Scriptures are shadow to the substance that would later be revealed. Type and shadow. So, if there is no precedence in the Old Testament then there is no reality in the New Testament. The point being that God made no covenant with Gentiles in the Law, Psalms, or the Prophets (Hebrew Scripture.) None. Nada, zip, zero.

Saul's letter to the Jewish Church at Ephesus was written to Jewish Christians. Every letter we have in the canon written by Saul apart from his personal letters to Timothy was written to his Jewish brethren. Saul's reference to "strangers" and "foreigners" (and "sojourners") harkens back to the Old Testament Hebrew terminology of Gentiles in Abraham's house that were circumcised, and this includes servants. Abraham and Sarah had no children until Isaac and although these non-Hebrews that were circumcised received the blessings of Abraham but were not in the covenant God made with him as Gentiles do not come from the seed of Abraham. You are deeply infected with Gentile heresy and prefer these heresies rather than accept the Word of God for your doctrine and belief. I used to be so very deceived just as you are now, but God saw fit to open my eyes to His Word and as commanded I "come out from among them and became separate" from their deceptions. As I took a closer look at Gentile teaching of the past 1900 years, I began to see one heresy which led me to another heresy and then to yet another heresy held by the Gentile theology which once when they unmoored Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots the Gentile religion ceased to be Christ-ian (Messiah-ism) and became a new religion, one that has severed its ties to the Hebrew people and became a religion vaguely resembling anything found in Scripture. Your heresy and beliefs - as revealed by your misunderstanding of Saul's letter to Jewish Christians at Ephesus - bears this out.

Maybe you should read the New Testament to see how that had played out

Er nationally Israel was cut off

Romans 9:25–32 (KJV 1900) — 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;



Romans 10:18–21 (KJV 1900) — 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Romans 11:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


being cutoff nationally as the people of God they could hardly be a holy nation. Only in a relationship based upon faith could they be so deemed. This involves but a remnant, those which were faithful

 

[jeremiah1five]

Maybe you should read the New Testament to see how that had played out

Er nationally Israel was cut off

Romans 9:25–32 (KJV 1900) — 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;



Romans 10:18–21 (KJV 1900) — 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Romans 11:11–20 (KJV 1900) — 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


being cutoff nationally as the people of God they could hardly be a holy nation. Only in a relationship based upon faith could they be so deemed. This involves but a remnant, those which were faithful

First, Saul quotes Isaiah and changes a word in the original prophecy by adding "saved" when Isaiah says nothing about being saved. Isaiah identifies the Jews that returned to the Holy Land as a "remnant" that returned (meaning the majority of Jews remained in Gentile lands. A "remnant" is about 10%.)

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Saul changes a word and thus changed the unchangeable Word of God:

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: Rom. 9:26–27.

Whether by adding, subtracting, or changing the Word (or a word) of God is called sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

First, Saul quotes Isaiah and changes a word in the original prophecy by adding "saved" when Isaiah says nothing about being saved. Isaiah identifies the Jews that returned to the Holy Land as a "remnant" that returned (meaning the majority of Jews remained in Gentile lands. A "remnant" is about 10%.)

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Saul changes a word and thus changed the unchangeable Word of God:

Nonsense. Paul quoted the Greek OT translated by Jews.

Isa 10:22 And though the people of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be saved.

You should study more and not accept the first reference you find that agrees with you.

σώζω is unmistakebly "saved".

 

[civic]

And he did and extended the new covenant to the gentiles

Ephesians 2:11–22 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.




b

Yes the gentiles have been grafted in and the church consists of both Jews and Gentiles alike. Many in replacement theology, covenant theology like to conflate Israel and the church. They are not the same. Paul makes that clear in Roman 9-11 and so do the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus.

 

[TomL]

Yes the gentiles have been grafted in and the church consists of both Jews and Gentiles alike.

Yes, Being an ethnic Jew does not make one holy and the only recipient of the covenant

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes the gentiles have been grafted in and the church consists of both Jews and Gentiles alike. Many in replacement theology, covenant theology like to conflate Israel and the church. They are not the same. Paul makes that clear in Roman 9-11 and so do the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus.

Separate flocks all the same fold. One King. One Master. One Lord. They all shall be "united" in Christ.

 

[TomL]

Separate flocks all the same fold. One King. One Master. One Lord. They all shall be "united" in Christ.

amen

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, Being an ethnic Jew does not make one holy and the only recipient of the covenant

Absolutely. Amen. Joint Heirs.

 

[101G]

I made a comment identifying "Gentile Church" differentiating it from the Jewish Church in our present era of Times of the Gentiles, to which @EclipseEventSigns responded "there is no Gentile Church" in which he is attempting to identify "the Church" in the New Covenant writings as being a Church including both Jew and Gentile, which for the purpose of the beginnings of the Church from Pentecost onward to the destruction of the Jewish Temple I disagreed. After further consideration I have to agree with @EclipseEventSigns that [the] Gentile Church does not exist, which it doesn't.

nor any Jewish church. there is neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile, nor male and female.

101G.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Nonsense. Paul quoted the Greek OT translated by Jews.

Isa 10:22 And though the people of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant of them shall be saved.

You should study more and not accept the first reference you find that agrees with you.

σώζω is unmistakably "saved".

Saul was a Jew with a Jewish mindset. The things he wrote about carried Jewish terminology and concepts and ideas.

And as the text proves, Saul manipulated the Word of God and changed a word in Isaiah's prophecy to make it say something else. Mormon's, JW's, and other's that do a dishonest thing is called out. And that's what I've done. The word "remnant" is not the word "saved."
Saul was dishonest with Scripture and one of the reasons why Romans was not highly esteemed by others when the canon was being put together. I doubt what he did was inspired by the Holy Spirit of TRUTH.

 

[jeremiah1five]

nor any Jewish church. there is neither Jew nor Greek/Gentile, nor male and female.

101G.

The context is Saul writing to Jewish Christians. That's the context. Receive it as such.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Saul was a Jew with a Jewish mindset. The things he wrote about carried Jewish terminology and concepts and ideas.

And as the text proves, Saul manipulated the Word of God and changed a word in Isaiah's prophecy to make it say something else. Mormon's, JW's, and other's that do a dishonest thing is called out. And that's what I've done. The word "remnant" is not the word "saved."
Saul was dishonest with Scripture and one of the reasons why Romans was not highly esteemed by others when the canon was being put together. I doubt what he did was inspired by the Holy Spirit of TRUTH.

None of what you said changes the fact that Jews translated the Greek OT and Paul quoted the Greek OT. You're deflecting.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The context is Saul writing to Jewish Christians. That's the context. Receive it as such.

Why were Jews in Rome? Crack that nut. Why were they not ruling in Jerusalem and in their own country?
At every turn, you ignore the clear history that God has judged Israel. God still loves every Jew but you can't ignore the facts of history.

 

[TomL]

Saul was a Jew with a Jewish mindset. The things he wrote about carried Jewish terminology and concepts and ideas.

And as the text proves, Saul manipulated the Word of God and changed a word in Isaiah's prophecy to make it say something else. Mormon's, JW's, and other's that do a dishonest thing is called out. And that's what I've done. The word "remnant" is not the word "saved."
Saul was dishonest with Scripture and one of the reasons why Romans was not highly esteemed by others when the canon was being put together. I doubt what he did was inspired by the Holy Spirit of TRUTH.

As praise_yeshua said:

Nonsense. Paul quoted the Greek OT translated by Jews.

The version he is reading from is older than the underlying masoretic text of our bible