Who Exactly is the Church?

7-in fact.
Seven divine revelations?
I receive the same revelation from God. More than seven actually.
Glad I saw this-undermining Paul and the 13 Pauline epistles.
who's undermining Saul's 13 epistles? I'm not.
I only point out what I see in his statement and his changing Isaiah's word "return" to "saved" thus changing the meaning of the original prophecy and making Isaiah's prophecy say something else entirely. That's called manipulation. Any child of truth would be concerned. If one of us does that there are calls for his or her crucifixion. Someone like a JW or Mormon does that same thing with one of the prophets and he's labeled a heretic.
Want me to introduce you to Tovia Singer or any Ultra-Orthodox rabbi?
Nah.
Do you believe Jesus is your Savior?
I KNOW my redeemer lives. It has nothing to do with me. Saul is the culprit.
 
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CHRIST CAME UNTO HIS OWN
Note John 1:10 and 11:

“He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”​

In John 1:3 and 1:10, we learn that all things are created by Jesus Christ when He was the Word with God in the beginning. “He came unto His own.” “His own,” here, is neuter and refers to His own world or His own things. “His own received Him not.” “His own,” here, is masculine and refers to His own people; His own nation.

Jehovah was both the Creator and Redeemer of Israel:

“But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name: thou are mine.” Isaiah 43:1. “I am the Lord, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your king.” “This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.”

Isaiah 43:15 and 21. “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his Redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6.

In the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His visit to this earth, surely we have the story, “Christ came unto His own and His own received Him not.”

GRACE—THE LAMB OF GOD
Perhaps we noticed the absence of the word “grace” in the Gospel of Matthew. To be sure there was grace in some of the messages of Christ, such as, “Come unto Me and I will give you rest.” But there was also much of law in the Lord’s messages in Matthew.

In this respect there is a great difference in the Gospel of John. In the very first chapter we find Christ rejected by Israel. “He came unto His own and His own received Him not.” John 1:11.

Thus we see that we have in the first chapter of John what we have in the closing chapters of Matthew namely, Israel’s rejection of their Messiah; the Stone rejected by the builders.

--Yet you tell to @Complete "a different story"


It was this rejection by Israel and the death of the Lamb of God that brought in God’s reign of grace through Jesus Christ. Read carefully Romans 11:11 to 15 and Romans 5:20 and 21.


We have already learned that John’s Gospel is filled with messages of grace. But in Romans 8:1 and 2 we have the great “grace” message. “No condemnation in Christ” because of the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

Note again John 3:18 and John 6:47:

“He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life.”

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ;” “not condemned;” “hath everlasting life.”

Note again John 6:29:

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Whom He hath sent.”

The first work which God gives to any man is to believe on Him Whom God hath sent.

Surely we must learn this most important lesson, if we would understand John’s Gospel, so radically different from the Synoptics in many respects; namely, that, in applying the grace message of the Gospel of John we must look at Christ as having already been rejected, crucified and raised from the dead, when we begin the very first chapter and read John 1:12. “As many as received Him.”

In no other way can we reconcile the messages of John 1:12 and 3:16 with Matthew 15:24.

Remember the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 15:24: “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Here note that Christ is sent only to Israel. But in John 3:16 we find Christ given to the world; that “whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” In John 1:11 Christ is rejected by Israel. In John 1:12, “As many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God.”

You will learn to rightly cutting straight the D'varim of YHVH IF you read the NT and NOT rejecting the 13 Pauline epistles @jeremiah1five

Thank you again, @Johann.

Praise God! His Holy Name!

Chris
 
Stumped-case closed-and pray you will see the Light.
Ah, so there are Christians in Christ and then there are super-Christians in Christ. I don't bifurcate the Word of God nor the body of Christ. There is a natural order or God, Christ, man and woman.
Then there is a spiritual order, God Christ and everybody else in the body of Christ. One is vertical, the other horizontal. There are no echelons in Christ. I come to revelation from God the same way as he and anyone else who is called and gifted so.
 
The Savior Out of Heaven

“No one hath ascended into heaven, but (except) he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven” (John 3:13). The entire New Testament bears record to the fact that the Son of God found it necessary to come out of heaven in order to become the Saviour of the world. “The second man is the Lord out of heaven” (I Corinthians 15:47). The preposition “ek” meaning “out of”, often translated “of, from”, proves conclusively that Christ came out of heaven once to die a redeeming death, and although now in heaven, will come out of heaven again. Most Christians profess to believe in His first coming out of heaven, but are ignorant of or deny the fact that He will come again, although the entire New Testament with the exception of three books, Philemon, 2nd and 3rd John, bears witness to the fact and in the same language which describes His first coming.

No doubt fanatical date-setters have spoiled this glorious truth for most Christians, but such cannot alter the infallible Word of God. The whole philosophy of Christianity is hopeless and pessimistic apart from it; for the Bible no where holds out hope of immortality and resurrection apart from it, and if it will never occur, then Christians are of all men most to be pitied (I Corinthians 15:23, 19). A failing and powerless Christendom surely presents to the world a defeated God, when it throws away the hope of Christ’s coming with power and great glory (Matthew 24:30).

Every true Christian has been made conformable with Christ’s death (Philippians 3:10), i. e., has been crucified with Him (Galatians 2:20; Romans 6:6; Colossians 3:3) for the penalty of sin, and has been given the hope of having his body of humiliation made conformable with Christ’s body of glory Philippians 3:21).

This redemption of the body (Romans 8:23) is to be realized when Christ next comes out of heaven. We have already received everlasting life, the salvation of our souls, but we await the salvation of our bodies.

Those who spiritualize or misplace this resurrection err and overthrow the faith of some (II Timothy 2:18). This will not be a general resurrection; for it is called an “ek (out) resurrection ek (out of) dead ones” (Philippians 3:11), signifying that some of the dead will remain in the grave after this takes place. It would seem to include only the Body of Christ. Paul had the hope of attaining to this out resurrection, not by meritorious effort; for the word “attain” here merely means to come to or arrive at, as is seen from its usage in Acts 26:7 “come”; Acts 25:13 “came unto”; I Corinthians 10:11 “come”; towards which he pressed (Philippians 3:12, 14).

Some teach that the Body of Christ began after God set Israel aside in Acts 28:28, and therefore the hope of resurrection in I Corinthians 15:51, 52; I Thessalonians 4:13 to 17 (given before Acts 28) is not for the Body of Christ. They say our hope is found in Philippians 3:11, 14, 20, 21 and Colossians 3 :4, and claim that these passages teach that our Lord is not coming out of heaven as in I Thessalonians 4, but that we will be called up on high, to meet Christ, not in the air, but in heaven. This theory seems to be contradicted, however, by the very scripture they use. Philippians 3:20 reads: “For our citizenship is in Heaven, from whence (ek ou—out of which, i. e., out of heaven) also we look for (or eagerly await—same word used in Romans 8:19, 23, 25; I Corinthians 1:7; Hebrews 9:28) the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.” It is exactly what the Thessalonians were doing: they were “waiting, for His Son from (ek—out of) heaven” (I Thessalonians 1:10). Christ is now in heaven; we are to wait for Him out of heaven He must descend from heaven as in I Thessalonians 4:16 before Philippians 3:20, 21 can be realized. The day in which the Corinthians and Thessalonian event is to be realized is called “the day of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Corinthians 1:8), and the one in which the Philippian hope is to be realized is called “the day of Jesus Christ” and the “day of Christ” (Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:16).

If these are two separate events, then language seems useless in making the distinction. We must, of course, recognize the distinction between His two comings or parousias; for there will first be a parousia or coming “for His saints” (I Thessalonians 4:15; II Thessalonians 2:1) in which the Church takes part; and then there will be the parousia “with His saints” (I Thessalonians 3:13). The former is called a Mystery (I Corinthians 15:51); the latter is the subject of prophecy and not a mystery, being the Second Coming of Christ back to the earth. Our hope is not to die and go to be with Christ in heaven, but to be caught up with Him when He next comes out of heaven, and to ever be with Him where ever He is.
ALL GOOD except for: "
We must, of course, recognize the distinction between His two comings or parousias;

There is only ONE Coming of Christ as Servant
There is only ONE Second Coming as KING of kings and LORD of lords = All of Scripture states this from Genesis to Revelation

1 Thess 3:12 is the SAME Group of Saints in 1 Thess 4:14
 
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ALL GOOD except for: "


There is only ONE Coming of Christ as Servant
There is only ONE Second Coming as KING of kings and LORD of lords = All of Scripture states this from Genesis to Revelation

1 Thess 3:12 is the SAME Group of Saints in 1 Thess 4:14
Correct there is only one Parousia/Epiphinea and His Coming and Appearance/Appearing are one in the same event. In 2 Thess 2:8 Paul has them as Synonymous terms happening at the same time.

Parousia

Matthew 24:3

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13

13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance (epiphenia)of His coming;(parousia)

James 5:7

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.



Epiphenia


2 Thessalonians 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance (epiphenia)of His coming;(parousia)

1 Timothy 6:14
14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,


hope this helps !!!
 
Correct there is only one Parousia/Epiphinea and His Coming and Appearance/Appearing are one in the same event. In 2 Thess 2:8 Paul has them as Synonymous terms happening at the same time.
Based on a review of multiple commentaries and journal articles, it is "safe to say" that the majority of conservative evangelical
scholars who interpret the Scripture in a literal, normative manner distinguish the Rapture, when Christ comes for His Bride, the
Church, from the Second Coming, when Christ comes with His Bride, the Church to earth to judge and wage war against His
enemies which is followed by the establishment of His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.

If one accepts a pre-tribulation viewpoint,
this distinction would seem to be quite clear. However if one favors a post-tribulation rapture, then the identity of these events would
merge into one event. In addition, even among those who appear to accept a pre-tribulation rapture, the term Second Coming is
occasionally used without a specific designation to refer to both of these events. Strictly speaking since Christ has come a first time,
both of these events would represent a "second coming". And since both aspects of Christ's return hold forth glorious promises for
believers, it is not at all inappropriate to think of them both with great hope and eager anticipation (see Greek Verbs)
A number of the New Testament passages are somewhat ambiguous (see examples of these passages) as to which event is
intended and one can read diametrically opposite comments by respected scholars that make relatively dogmatic interpretations
regarding these ambiguous passages. While these ambiguous passages do at times tend to favor one event over the other event,
the distinction is not always sufficiently distinctive to allow one to make the dogmatic statements one encounters in the Christian
literature.

It is little wonder that this wonderful future event on the Christian's calendar can be a source of some confusion.
Furthermore, as I have studied this subject and the passages in question, it seems quite possible that in a number of passages the
intended meaning is purposely ambiguous so that believers might be stimulated to anticipate the occurrence of both great
eschatological events, the Rapture and the Second Coming.


Today in the Word writes that…
Biblical prophecy provides some of the greatest encouragement and hope available to us today. Just as the

Old Testament is saturated with prophecies concerning Christ’s first advent, so both testaments are filled
with references to the Second Coming of Christ.
One scholar has estimated that there are 1,845 references to Christ’s Second Coming in the Old
Dr Walvoord echoes the New Testament emphasis of the return of the Lord writing that…
As noted in the preceding table other designations have been proposed for these two end time events including the division of


Christ's return into two phases or two stages. Another designation that has been offered is to refer to these events as Christ's
return for His saints (Rapture) or with His saints (Second Coming).


Dr Walvoord, who is without doubt the most influential and respected evangelical writer regarding Biblical study of future events
(eschatology) differentiates between the Rapture and the Second Coming writing…
Dr Walvoord adds that…


Dr S Lewis Johnson the late esteemed professor of Dallas Theological Seminary said that…
Testament, where 17 books give it prominence.
In the 260 chapters of the New Testament, there are 318 references to the second advent of Christ—an
amazing 1 out of every 30 verses. Twenty-three of the 27 New Testament books refer to this great event. For
every prophecy in the Bible concerning Christ’s first advent, there are 8 which look forward to His second!
Ed Comment: Some of these 318 references are specific and refer to the Rapture while others can be
identified as referring specifically to the Second Coming. As allude to above, a careful study of the majority of
these 318 passages cannot be specifically identified with one aspect or the other of the Lord's return.

The revelation of the second coming of Christ is one of the most important and most frequently mentioned
doctrines of the New Testament. One out of every twenty-five verses in the New Testament refers either to
the rapture of the church or to Christ’s coming to reign over the world (cf. Jesse Forrest Silver, The Lord’s
Return, p. 29). Though it is not always possible to distinguish references to Christ’s coming for the church from
references to His coming to establish His earthly kingdom, there are many passages which clearly present a
premillennial coming at the close of the great tribulation to judge the world and to bring in the righteous reign
of the King. Approximately twenty major references are found in the New Testament alone (Mt 19:28; 23:39;
24:3-25:46; Mark 13:24-37; Luke 12:35-48; 17:22-37; 18:8; 21:25-28; Acts 1:10-11; 15:16-18; Ro 11:25-27;
1Cor 11:26; 2Thess 1:7, 8, 9,10; 2:8 ; 2Pet 3:3, 4; Jude 1:14,15 ; Rev 1:7-8; 2:25, 26, 27, 28; 16:15; 19:11-21;
22:20). (The Prophetic Context of the Millennium — Part III: The Second Coming of Christ in the New
Testament) (Comment: Read the first sentence again. Do you notice how even Dr Walvoord uses "the second
coming" as a term to include the Rapture and the Second Coming.)


For the sake of brevity, the term rapture or translation is used for the coming of Christ for His church, while
the term Second Coming is uniformly used as a reference to His coming to the earth to establish His
millennial kingdom, an event which all consider post-tribulational. While the words rapture and translation are
not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture reference is made to the fact that the
church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven. By the term translation the thought is conveyed that
those who are thus raptured are transformed in their physical bodies from natural and corruptible bodies to
spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal bodies. Strictly speaking, the dead are raised while the living are
translated. In common usage, however, this distinction is not normally maintained.
Though the second coming may not be as important to the total program of God as thefirst coming, it
certainly is without precedent in manifestation of the glory and power of the Triune God. It constitutes the most
tremendous intervention of divine power in the entire course of human history…
Just as Scripture concerning the rapture of the church is climactic and determinative in truth revealed about
the church, so the second coming is determinative in tracing the future course of Gentiles and Israel in the
world, the resurrection of the righteous, and the fulfillment of prophecies concerning the kingdom of God on
earth. King of glory. (John Walvoord. Millennial Kingdom - Prophetic Context)
The Tribulation, which we have called one of the "monster subjects" of the Bible, is followed by an even larger
one, the doctrine of the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus. One commentator, in writing about the Second
Advent has said that the most dramatic event in all history will be the visible appearing of Jesus Christ, and
that is probably true. We certainly can say it is the most prophesied event in the Bible. There is no other
event of holy Scripture that has so much of the divine revelation given to it as the Second Advent of the Lord
Jesus. And as you know, it was one of the subjects that the apostles particularly taught and emphasized. (Ref)

Ed comment: Note that Dr Johnson uses the Second Advent as a synonym for the Second Coming. He also
rightly points out that most of the Biblical references are to the visible, earthly return of the King of kings, which
While I humbly agree with both these highly esteemed scholars, the problem arises when one is reading another writer's comments,
in which they may use the term "Second Coming" in a more generic and/or a less distinctive manner.

The approach adopted by this website is to refer to Christ's return for His saints as the Rapture and His return with His saints as the
Second Coming. If a clear distinction cannot be made in a passage under discussion, that qualifier is added.

The upshot is that if you see the term Second Coming of Christ in the Christian literature, you need to try to discern the author's
intended meaning (and this distinction is not always clear from my cursory review). Many times the context of the passage may
favor either the Rapture or the Second Coming but that distinction is not always clear as previously noted.

Walvoord comments on the importance of the Second Coming writing…
James F. Stitzinger- The deeper one looks into the coming of Christ, the more complex, intriguing, and astonishing it becomes, much
like the beauty and complexity of human DNA under the microscope, or the heavens as viewed through a telescope (Ps 8:3-4).

Sadly, many fail to discern this intrigue and approach prophecy with the use of Ockham’s Razor principle (from the great English
scholastic, William of Ockham,1280-1349). In Ockham’s development of a nominalistic pursuit of the real, he insisted upon using the
razor to slash away at complex explanations “of the hierarchy of being, of ideas and concepts, which sheer speculation had
invented” in the realist’s pursuit of what is real.6 He asserted that what could be done with fewer assumptions is done in vain with
more, and therefore, he called for the “rejection and pruning of all concepts which are not absolutely necessary.”

7
posttribulationalists, historic premillennialists, postmillennialists as well as amillennialists8 all say, “Apply the razor!” and in doing so,
reduce the two-phase second coming of Christ to one phase. Such tragic conclusions are similar to those of anti-trinitarians who find
one person in the Godhead rather than three, or early students of Christology who said one nature of Christ rather than two distinct
natures in the one person of the God-man (Phil 2:6-8). Rather than “apply the razor,” one should plunge into the depths of biblical
teaching on the comings of Christ, making clear the biblical distinctions, and look deeply into the issues and nuances of the text,
rather than being satisfied with traditional answers originating in unquestioned pre-understandings when approaching the text. (See
full article THE RAPTURE IN TWENTY CENTURIES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION)

Shalom
 
Based on a review of multiple commentaries and journal articles, it is "safe to say" that the majority of conservative evangelical
scholars who interpret the Scripture in a literal, normative manner distinguish the Rapture, when Christ comes for His Bride, the
Church, from the Second Coming, when Christ comes with His Bride, the Church to earth to judge and wage war against His
enemies which is followed by the establishment of His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom.

If one accepts a pre-tribulation viewpoint,
this distinction would seem to be quite clear. However if one favors a post-tribulation rapture, then the identity of these events would
merge into one event. In addition, even among those who appear to accept a pre-tribulation rapture, the term Second Coming is
occasionally used without a specific designation to refer to both of these events. Strictly speaking since Christ has come a first time,
both of these events would represent a "second coming". And since both aspects of Christ's return hold forth glorious promises for
believers, it is not at all inappropriate to think of them both with great hope and eager anticipation (see Greek Verbs)
A number of the New Testament passages are somewhat ambiguous (see examples of these passages) as to which event is
intended and one can read diametrically opposite comments by respected scholars that make relatively dogmatic interpretations
regarding these ambiguous passages. While these ambiguous passages do at times tend to favor one event over the other event,
the distinction is not always sufficiently distinctive to allow one to make the dogmatic statements one encounters in the Christian
literature.

It is little wonder that this wonderful future event on the Christian's calendar can be a source of some confusion.
Furthermore, as I have studied this subject and the passages in question, it seems quite possible that in a number of passages the
intended meaning is purposely ambiguous so that believers might be stimulated to anticipate the occurrence of both great
eschatological events, the Rapture and the Second Coming.


Today in the Word writes that…
Biblical prophecy provides some of the greatest encouragement and hope available to us today. Just as the

Old Testament is saturated with prophecies concerning Christ’s first advent, so both testaments are filled
with references to the Second Coming of Christ.
One scholar has estimated that there are 1,845 references to Christ’s Second Coming in the Old
Dr Walvoord echoes the New Testament emphasis of the return of the Lord writing that…
As noted in the preceding table other designations have been proposed for these two end time events including the division of


Christ's return into two phases or two stages. Another designation that has been offered is to refer to these events as Christ's
return for His saints (Rapture) or with His saints (Second Coming).


Dr Walvoord, who is without doubt the most influential and respected evangelical writer regarding Biblical study of future events
(eschatology) differentiates between the Rapture and the Second Coming writing…
Dr Walvoord adds that…


Dr S Lewis Johnson the late esteemed professor of Dallas Theological Seminary said that…
Testament, where 17 books give it prominence.
In the 260 chapters of the New Testament, there are 318 references to the second advent of Christ—an
amazing 1 out of every 30 verses. Twenty-three of the 27 New Testament books refer to this great event. For
every prophecy in the Bible concerning Christ’s first advent, there are 8 which look forward to His second!
Ed Comment: Some of these 318 references are specific and refer to the Rapture while others can be
identified as referring specifically to the Second Coming. As allude to above, a careful study of the majority of
these 318 passages cannot be specifically identified with one aspect or the other of the Lord's return.

The revelation of the second coming of Christ is one of the most important and most frequently mentioned
doctrines of the New Testament. One out of every twenty-five verses in the New Testament refers either to
the rapture of the church or to Christ’s coming to reign over the world (cf. Jesse Forrest Silver, The Lord’s
Return, p. 29). Though it is not always possible to distinguish references to Christ’s coming for the church from
references to His coming to establish His earthly kingdom, there are many passages which clearly present a
premillennial coming at the close of the great tribulation to judge the world and to bring in the righteous reign
of the King. Approximately twenty major references are found in the New Testament alone (Mt 19:28; 23:39;
24:3-25:46; Mark 13:24-37; Luke 12:35-48; 17:22-37; 18:8; 21:25-28; Acts 1:10-11; 15:16-18; Ro 11:25-27;
1Cor 11:26; 2Thess 1:7, 8, 9,10; 2:8 ; 2Pet 3:3, 4; Jude 1:14,15 ; Rev 1:7-8; 2:25, 26, 27, 28; 16:15; 19:11-21;
22:20). (The Prophetic Context of the Millennium — Part III: The Second Coming of Christ in the New
Testament) (Comment: Read the first sentence again. Do you notice how even Dr Walvoord uses "the second
coming" as a term to include the Rapture and the Second Coming.)


For the sake of brevity, the term rapture or translation is used for the coming of Christ for His church, while
the term Second Coming is uniformly used as a reference to His coming to the earth to establish His
millennial kingdom, an event which all consider post-tribulational. While the words rapture and translation are
not quite identical, they refer to the same event. By the term rapture reference is made to the fact that the
church is “caught up” from the earth and taken to heaven. By the term translation the thought is conveyed that
those who are thus raptured are transformed in their physical bodies from natural and corruptible bodies to
spiritual, incorruptible, and immortal bodies. Strictly speaking, the dead are raised while the living are
translated. In common usage, however, this distinction is not normally maintained.
Though the second coming may not be as important to the total program of God as thefirst coming, it
certainly is without precedent in manifestation of the glory and power of the Triune God. It constitutes the most
tremendous intervention of divine power in the entire course of human history…
Just as Scripture concerning the rapture of the church is climactic and determinative in truth revealed about
the church, so the second coming is determinative in tracing the future course of Gentiles and Israel in the
world, the resurrection of the righteous, and the fulfillment of prophecies concerning the kingdom of God on
earth. King of glory. (John Walvoord. Millennial Kingdom - Prophetic Context)
The Tribulation, which we have called one of the "monster subjects" of the Bible, is followed by an even larger
one, the doctrine of the Second Advent of the Lord Jesus. One commentator, in writing about the Second
Advent has said that the most dramatic event in all history will be the visible appearing of Jesus Christ, and
that is probably true. We certainly can say it is the most prophesied event in the Bible. There is no other
event of holy Scripture that has so much of the divine revelation given to it as the Second Advent of the Lord
Jesus. And as you know, it was one of the subjects that the apostles particularly taught and emphasized. (Ref)

Ed comment: Note that Dr Johnson uses the Second Advent as a synonym for the Second Coming. He also
rightly points out that most of the Biblical references are to the visible, earthly return of the King of kings, which
While I humbly agree with both these highly esteemed scholars, the problem arises when one is reading another writer's comments,
in which they may use the term "Second Coming" in a more generic and/or a less distinctive manner.

The approach adopted by this website is to refer to Christ's return for His saints as the Rapture and His return with His saints as the
Second Coming. If a clear distinction cannot be made in a passage under discussion, that qualifier is added.

The upshot is that if you see the term Second Coming of Christ in the Christian literature, you need to try to discern the author's
intended meaning (and this distinction is not always clear from my cursory review). Many times the context of the passage may
favor either the Rapture or the Second Coming but that distinction is not always clear as previously noted.

Walvoord comments on the importance of the Second Coming writing…
James F. Stitzinger- The deeper one looks into the coming of Christ, the more complex, intriguing, and astonishing it becomes, much
like the beauty and complexity of human DNA under the microscope, or the heavens as viewed through a telescope (Ps 8:3-4).

Sadly, many fail to discern this intrigue and approach prophecy with the use of Ockham’s Razor principle (from the great English
scholastic, William of Ockham,1280-1349). In Ockham’s development of a nominalistic pursuit of the real, he insisted upon using the
razor to slash away at complex explanations “of the hierarchy of being, of ideas and concepts, which sheer speculation had
invented” in the realist’s pursuit of what is real.6 He asserted that what could be done with fewer assumptions is done in vain with
more, and therefore, he called for the “rejection and pruning of all concepts which are not absolutely necessary.”

7
posttribulationalists, historic premillennialists, postmillennialists as well as amillennialists8 all say, “Apply the razor!” and in doing so,
reduce the two-phase second coming of Christ to one phase. Such tragic conclusions are similar to those of anti-trinitarians who find
one person in the Godhead rather than three, or early students of Christology who said one nature of Christ rather than two distinct
natures in the one person of the God-man (Phil 2:6-8). Rather than “apply the razor,” one should plunge into the depths of biblical
teaching on the comings of Christ, making clear the biblical distinctions, and look deeply into the issues and nuances of the text,
rather than being satisfied with traditional answers originating in unquestioned pre-understandings when approaching the text. (See
full article THE RAPTURE IN TWENTY CENTURIES OF BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION)

Shalom
Dear Brother Johann,

'Scholars' are the source of confusion = always have been = "woe to you scribes and pharisees"

1 Cor 14:33 - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;"

Popularity of doctrine that has no scriptural foundation is a RED FLAG of WARNING to every TRUE Berean Saint.

Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?
There is only one Scholar whom you should give your complete heart/mind to = the Spirit of Truth

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. -
John 16:12-15

God did not give us ambiguous scripture concerning His Return = the Spirit of Truth knew exactlly what to show the Apostles.

The TEST for every Berean is to SEE if what you hear is actually confirmed in Scripture.

Example: Please find the declaration from the LORD Jesus and/or the Apostles and/or OT Prophets of 'pre-trib' rapture.

We can easily verify that a rapture will take place AND that it will only occur at His Coming AFTER the Resurrection.

No one can find and post a single declaration of "I will rapture my Church BEFORE the Tribulation" or any such like it!

 
Correct there is only one Parousia/Epiphinea and His Coming and Appearance/Appearing are one in the same event. In 2 Thess 2:8 Paul has them as Synonymous terms happening at the same time.

Parousia

Matthew 24:3

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19

19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13

13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the appearance (epiphenia)of His coming;(parousia)

James 5:7

7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8

8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.



Epiphenia


2 Thessalonians 2:8
8
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance (epiphenia)of His coming;(parousia)

1 Timothy 6:14
14
that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,


hope this helps !!!
Looks "singular" to me.
 
Dear Brother Johann,

'Scholars' are the source of confusion = always have been = "woe to you scribes and pharisees"

1 Cor 14:33 - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

"For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;"

Popularity of doctrine that has no scriptural foundation is a RED FLAG of WARNING to every TRUE Berean Saint.

Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?
There is only one Scholar whom you should give your complete heart/mind to = the Spirit of Truth

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. -
John 16:12-15

God did not give us ambiguous scripture concerning His Return = the Spirit of Truth knew exactlly what to show the Apostles.

The TEST for every Berean is to SEE if what you hear is actually confirmed in Scripture.

Example: Please find the declaration from the LORD Jesus and/or the Apostles and/or OT Prophets of 'pre-trib' rapture.

We can easily verify that a rapture will take place AND that it will only occur at His Coming AFTER the Resurrection.

No one can find and post a single declaration of "I will rapture my Church BEFORE the Tribulation" or any such like it!
Call me a heretic then @DavidTree -I have no problem with that.
J.
 
Call me a heretic then @DavidTree -I have no problem with that.
J.
i never asserted any such thing to you Brother.

Why would you even suggest such?

Did this offend???
Popularity of doctrine that has no scriptural foundation is a RED FLAG of WARNING to every TRUE Berean Saint.
God did not give us ambiguous scripture concerning His Return = the Spirit of Truth knew exactlly what to show the Apostles.
The TEST for every Berean is to SEE if what you hear is actually confirmed in Scripture.
 
i never asserted any such thing to you Brother.

Why would you even suggest such?

Did this offend???
Popularity of doctrine that has no scriptural foundation is a RED FLAG of WARNING to every TRUE Berean Saint.
God did not give us ambiguous scripture concerning His Return = the Spirit of Truth knew exactlly what to show the Apostles.
The TEST for every Berean is to SEE if what you hear is actually confirmed in Scripture.
Nothing offends me brother.
 
Nothing offends me brother.
That is GREAT.

i never met a single christian that holds to pre-trib rapture, when shown from scripture that 'pre-trib' rapture is a falsehood, who was not offended.

Each person may take it differently depending on their heart ties to certain pastors/denominations = but all dislike being shown the Truth from Scripture.

SDA's dislike being shown from Scripture that JESUS is the 7th Day of REST.
RCC's dislike being shown that Mary cannot save them and praying to her is not from God.
Law worshippers find it extremely difficult in the Grace of God thru Jesus Christ.
and on and on it goes.......

Well, have a GREAT DAY in our LORD Jesus Christ Today my Brother.
 
Scripturally, the pretribulational view has much to commend it. For example, the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. from GOT?
 
Scripturally, the pretribulational view has much to commend it. For example, the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. from GOT?
Some of us alive today may never die—what a thrilling prospect! Yet Paul is quite clear that no one knows when this will happen, the day will come suddenly, like a thief, so we cannot know whether we’ll receive our immortal bodies through resurrection after death or through transformation while still here.

BUT AS to the suitable times and the precise seasons and dates, brethren, you have no necessity for anything being written to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord will come [as unexpectedly and suddenly] as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:1–2
 
Scripturally, the pretribulational view has much to commend it. For example, the church is not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:9), and believers will not be overtaken by the Day of the Lord (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9). The church of Philadelphia was promised to be kept from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world” (Revelation 3:10). Note that the promise is not preservation through the trial but deliverance from the hour, that is, from the time period of the trial. from GOT?
How do you commend something which God never spoke, promised or commanded?

Being kept from the "hour of trial" in no way shape or form is removal from the earth = and is never promised by God.

Peter failed in his 'hour of trial' and yet he was KEPT by the LORD.

“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You.
Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
15I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

@Clifford can you find the fullfilment of 1 Corinthians 10:12-13 in Revelation
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
P.S. - 1 Thess 1:10 -

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
 
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