Who Exactly is the Church?

[jeremiah1five]

None of what you said changes the fact that Jews translated the Greek OT and Paul quoted the Greek OT. You're deflecting.

I'm not deflecting. This little light of mine is reflecting.

Sure, the Hellenized Jews translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Gentiles did the same translating the Hebrew and Geek into English. But there are several places in his letters Saul quotes from the Greek Septuagint, but he still used Jewish ideas and concepts to get some of his message across to the Jews and Jewish Christians. There's no other way to understand the Hebrew Scriptures except through the historical, cultural, and religious aspects of the Jewish people. The oracles of God were written TO and FOR the Hebrew people ONLY. It's their covenants. Yeshua was a Jewish Messiah and the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. You make it sound as though God's message of redemption Promised to the Hebrew people was also given to Gentiles. Yes, given to allied and circumcised Gentile proselytes and to allied, uncircumcised God-Fearers, but not to any uncircumcised Roman, Scythian, or Greek Gentiles. God never gives that which is holy to dogs, nor does He cast His Pearls (the Word of God) to swine. If He did that, He would be a hypocrite. But thanks be to God that He doesn't do such a sacrilegious thing. And it's a good thing, too.

25 For I would not that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness. Rom. 11:25–26.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom. 9:25–26.

And it's a good thing, too. The Lord told me when the two Jewish prophets of Revelation 11 come to minister to God's elect people Israel that they will set straight many a Gentile doctrine which butchered the true, Biblical teachings from Scripture chastising (judgment is more like it) them for unmooring Christianity from its Hebrew roots and for teaching that God's Torah doesn't have to be obeyed. That one God is particularly displeased with.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Why were Jews in Rome? Crack that nut. Why were they not ruling in Jerusalem and in their own country?
At every turn, you ignore the clear history that God has judged Israel. God still loves every Jew but you can't ignore the facts of history.

Gentiles can teach God doesn't keep His Promises He's made to the Hebrew people in covenant and through prophecy, but as Scripture teaches without a doubt that salvation is of the Jews and of no other people. I cannot but think of this one thing that is on the forefront of my mind when I consider Gentiles mishandling the salvation of the Jews and the great lies perpetrated by Gentiles these 1900 years where God's Word is concerned.

Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom. 11:21.

The Jews were a scattered people. God made them go through three major scatterings in their history. First the Assyrians (northern kingdom). Second the Babylonians (southern kingdom.) Third, the Roman conquest and destruction of Israel and the Second Jewish Temple. And what happened to the Romans? In A.D. 410 the Roman Empire was effectually defeated by hordes of barbarians. The same judgment is coming upon Gentiles and Gentile Christians. And there will be no rapture in which to escape God's judgment. Jesus Himself said those days will be like the time of Noah:

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; Mt 24:37–39.

Gentile Christian mishandling of Jesus' words in Matthew 24 to teach a rapture of Gentile Christians is particularly disturbing - and deceptive.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mt 24:40–41.

Just as in the days of Noah the ones "taken away" were the ones God destroyed in the flood. The ones that remained or left behind were the ones He delivered. Gentiles teach the opposite.

 

[jeremiah1five]

As praise_yeshua said:


The version he is reading from is older than the underlying masoretic text of our bible

That's not the point of the discussion. The Septuagint may predate the Masoretic text, but Gentiles have unmoored true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots and in doing so have created a new religion which is distinct from the salvation of the Jews. Gentiles have stolen the Hebrew covenants and their inheritance as well as Jewish terms and made them all their own. I am reminded of thew innate behavior of the Cuckoo which lays its egg in a nest not their own and when that egg hatches immediately and instinctively pushes out of the nest the original occupants to an untimely doom. And then proceeds to be fed by the mother bird until maturity and flies away. Sometimes it continues to be fed by the mother bird who is oblivious to its own eggs demise by the Cuckoo.

The fact remains that the Biblical identity of the true Church is Israel of twelve tribes. The true Bride of God is Israel of twelve tribes. The true saints identified in the Scripture are the Hebrews/Jews of twelve tribes. And like the Cuckoo these past 1900 years Gentiles have pushed Israel of twelve tribes out of their own nest and was raised as though they are the actual offspring of Mama bird and Mama birds' nest (House.) But it's a lie. It's going to take the presence and ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation that finally bring the truth of the matter to Gentile minds and the result will be just plain ol' murderous vengeance against Israel of twelve tribes. At least that is the true, Biblical teaching of Scripture in Zechariah and Revelation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm not deflecting. This little light of mine is reflecting.

Sure, the Hellenized Jews translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Gentiles did the same translating the Hebrew and Geek into English. But there are several places in his letters Saul quotes from the Greek Septuagint, but he still used Jewish ideas and concepts to get some of his message across to the Jews and Jewish Christians. There's no other way to understand the Hebrew Scriptures except through the historical, cultural, and religious aspects of the Jewish people. The oracles of God were written TO and FOR the Hebrew people ONLY. It's their covenants. Yeshua was a Jewish Messiah and the fulfillment of Jewish prophecies. You make it sound as though God's message of redemption Promised to the Hebrew people was also given to Gentiles. Yes, given to allied and circumcised Gentile proselytes and to allied, uncircumcised God-Fearers, but not to any uncircumcised Roman, Scythian, or Greek Gentiles. God never gives that which is holy to dogs, nor does He cast His Pearls (the Word of God) to swine. If He did that, He would be a hypocrite. But thanks be to God that He doesn't do such a sacrilegious thing. And it's a good thing, too.

25 For I would not that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness. Rom. 11:25–26.

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Rom. 9:25–26.

And it's a good thing, too. The Lord told me when the two Jewish prophets of Revelation 11 come to minister to God's elect people Israel that they will set straight many a Gentile doctrine which butchered the true, Biblical teachings from Scripture chastising (judgment is more like it) them for unmooring Christianity from its Hebrew roots and for teaching that God's Torah doesn't have to be obeyed. That one God is particularly displeased with.

You do realize that these Jews that did the translation were perfectly integrated into Greek culture and well understood what they were translating. The Jews of today are far removed from the Jews of that day. There really is no comparison. Most Jews today only have a fleeting sense of what was given to them.

This why a Jew (Paul) chose to use the Greek OT in his reference. It is why Paul chose to write his letters in Greek. It is why Josephus wrote in Greek. It works..... If it didn't work and was meaningful, they wouldn't have done it.

Yet, here you are centuries removed these people that knew much more than you'll ever know about the subject...... complaining about people that you're not even close to matching.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not the point of the discussion. The Septuagint may predate the Masoretic text, but Gentiles have unmoored true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots and in doing so have created a new religion which is distinct from the salvation of the Jews. Gentiles have stolen the Hebrew covenants and their inheritance as well as Jewish terms and made them all their own. I am reminded of thew innate behavior of the Cuckoo which lays its egg in a nest not their own and when that egg hatches immediately and instinctively pushes out of the nest the original occupants to an untimely doom. And then proceeds to be fed by the mother bird until maturity and flies away. Sometimes it continues to be fed by the mother bird who is oblivious to its own eggs demise by the Cuckoo.

The fact remains that the Biblical identity of the true Church is Israel of twelve tribes. The true Bride of God is Israel of twelve tribes. The true saints identified in the Scripture are the Hebrews/Jews of twelve tribes. And like the Cuckoo these past 1900 years Gentiles have pushed Israel of twelve tribes out of their own nest and was raised as though they are the actual offspring of Mama bird and Mama birds' nest (House.) But it's a lie. It's going to take the presence and ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation that finally bring the truth of the matter to Gentile minds and the result will be just plain ol' murderous vengeance against Israel of twelve tribes. At least that is the true, Biblical teaching of Scripture in Zechariah and Revelation.

You based your response upon a misunderstanding about the source. Your argument is dependent upon your mistake. Thusly, your argument is not true. It is based upon a mistake you've made.

 

[TomL]

That's not the point of the discussion. The Septuagint may predate the Masoretic text, but Gentiles have unmoored true, Biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots and in doing so have created a new religion which is distinct from the salvation of the Jews. Gentiles have stolen the Hebrew covenants and their inheritance as well as Jewish terms and made them all their own. I am reminded of thew innate behavior of the Cuckoo which lays its egg in a nest not their own and when that egg hatches immediately and instinctively pushes out of the nest the original occupants to an untimely doom. And then proceeds to be fed by the mother bird until maturity and flies away. Sometimes it continues to be fed by the mother bird who is oblivious to its own eggs demise by the Cuckoo.

The fact remains that the Biblical identity of the true Church is Israel of twelve tribes. The true Bride of God is Israel of twelve tribes. The true saints identified in the Scripture are the Hebrews/Jews of twelve tribes. And like the Cuckoo these past 1900 years Gentiles have pushed Israel of twelve tribes out of their own nest and was raised as though they are the actual offspring of Mama bird and Mama birds' nest (House.) But it's a lie. It's going to take the presence and ministry of the two witnesses of Revelation that finally bring the truth of the matter to Gentile minds and the result will be just plain ol' murderous vengeance against Israel of twelve tribes. At least that is the true, Biblical teaching of Scripture in Zechariah and Revelation.

Your claim was Saul changed the text of scripture.

The facts just extolled show you have no basis for that claim.

 

[101G]

The context is Saul writing to Jewish Christians. That's the context. Receive it as such.

again, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew.

101G.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Who Exactly is the Church?​

The "Church" of Jesus Christ is exclusively that group of people, physicall alive, and physically dead, who have been Born again of the Holy SPirit by FAITH In the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross.

No visible religio/political denominational system was ever, and never will be "The Church of Jesus Christ", although people, who ARE the Church, can be found in most denominational bodies to various levels of concentration. I.e. some Southern Baptists are Born again by FAITH, and ARE "The Church" and some Southern Baptists are nothing but Southern Baptists.

 

[TomL]

again, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew.

101G.

Acts 11:19–26 (KJV 1900) — 19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. 22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[101G]

Acts 11:19–26 (KJV 1900) — 19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. 22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

and? where in those verses they are called Jewish Christians. no where. one more time..... Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

101G.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You do realize that these Jews that did the translation were perfectly integrated into Greek culture and well understood what they were translating. The Jews of today are far removed from the Jews of that day. There really is no comparison. Most Jews today only have a fleeting sense of what was given to them.

This why a Jew (Paul) chose to use the Greek OT in his reference. It is why Paul chose to write his letters in Greek. It is why Josephus wrote in Greek. It works..... If it didn't work and was meaningful, they wouldn't have done it.

Yet, here you are centuries removed these people that knew much more than you'll ever know about the subject...... complaining about people that you're not even close to matching.

Saul may have quoted from the LXX but he did not do so as extensively as you seem to put out there. Maybe a handful of quotes and that's all. Saul was not a Hellenistic Jew. He was an observant Jew who read, studied, and may have had his own copies of the Hebrew Scripture in Hebrew. He may have spoken Greek to the Hellenist Jews, but the ideas and concepts were Jewish through and through in everything he communicated to his brethren of the flesh and Jewish Christian brethren was flavored with Jewish terms that only Jews would understand, which was the bulk of all his letters to Jewish Christians at the home churches he wrote to that make up his 14 epistles in the NT canon.

No, I know more.

I have nearly 6000 years from which to look back and see a greater picture of God's redemptive plan. They don't.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You based your response upon a misunderstanding about the source. Your argument is dependent upon your mistake. Thusly, your argument is not true. It is based upon a mistake you've made.

Oh no, Gentile Christianity is not true, biblical Christianity especially when they've rejected God's Torah for a leaning upon their own understanding in the vanity of their minds. Gentiles teach God's Torah is "abolished" or "rescinded" or "replaced" which is convenient for them because now they can lead their own lives and not be accountable to God. They've taken terms applied exclusively to Israel and stole them and applied those words and terms to themselves. Original terms like "Church," and "saint(s)," and "Bride" and "covenant(s)," and a host of other stolen terminology that is exclusively Hebrew/Jewish.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Your claim was Saul changed the text of scripture.

The facts just extolled show you have no basis for that claim.

PROOF:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Saul in Romans. 9:27.

Completely dishonest with Yahweh's Word of prophecy. Mormons and JW's do this and Gentile Christians cite them for such butchering of God's Word. Let's not have a double standard.

 

[jeremiah1five]

again, there is no such thing as a Christian Jew.

101G.

Sure, there is. For forty years before the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple Jews were being saved and born-again in the thousands and thousands. They were Jew, and they were Christ-followers (Christian.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

The "Church" of Jesus Christ is exclusively that group of people, physicall alive, and physically dead, who have been Born again of the Holy SPirit by FAITH In the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross.

No visible religio/political denominational system was ever, and never will be "The Church of Jesus Christ", although people, who ARE the Church, can be found in most denominational bodies to various levels of concentration. I.e. some Southern Baptists are Born again by FAITH, and ARE "The Church" and some Southern Baptists are nothing but Southern Baptists.

No doubt since the destruction of the Jewish Temple Gentiles were "called out" and born-again and the word "ekklesia" is applicable.
But the true, original, and biblical as well as historical Church is Israel. They were called out of Egypt by God. They are called the "Great Congregation" in the OT.
Of course, I'm talking about being in covenant with God which Israel enjoys.
Gentiles have never been in any covenant with God.
And from my reading of the prophets, it doesn't end well for Gentile Christians. I think you should be aware. But I'm still studying this question.

 

[TomL]

PROOF:

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Saul in Romans. 9:27.

Completely dishonest with Yahweh's Word of prophecy. Mormons and JW's do this and Gentile Christians cite them for such butchering of God's Word. Let's not have a double standard.

You don't get it

You have no evidence the original text has return

You are using an ~8th century text to dispute the septuagint which precedes it by 1000 years

The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures123. It was completed sometime between 300 to 200 BC12, during the reign of Ptolemy II

The Masoretic text between the 6th and 10 century A.D

 

[TomL]

and? where in those verses they are called Jewish Christians. no where. one more time..... Galatians 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

101G.

Here

Acts 11:19–26 (KJV 1900) — 19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord. 22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch. 23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord. 24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord. 25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Your rebuttal is not rational if there are neither Jew nor Greek in Christ how can you logically deny they were called Christians being disciples of Christ

 

[101G]

Sure, there is. For forty years before the destruction of the Second Jewish Temple Jews were being saved and born-again in the thousands and thousands. They were Jew, and they were Christ-followers (Christian.)

this is why the Lord Jesus sent the apostles. to get it right, yes those Jews who went out from Stephen stoning. even Peter didn't know the Gentiles was cleaned by Jesus Christ. and they... those Jews stilled carried the Law of Moses. they didn't even know that the new covenant was in effect. this is why they witness to the Jews only. Acts 11:19 "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

with all their IGNORANT LAWS of Moses.

101G.

 

[jeremiah1five]

this is why the Lord Jesus sent the apostles. to get it right, yes those Jews who went out from Stephen stoning. even Peter didn't know the Gentiles was cleaned by Jesus Christ. and they... those Jews stilled carried the Law of Moses. they didn't even know that the new covenant was in effect. this is why they witness to the Jews only. Acts 11:19 "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

with all their IGNORANT LAWS of Moses.

101G.

No, Christ sent out His disciples to the twelve tribes living in Gentile lands to let them know their Messiah, Redeemer, and King had come. It was a remnant that returned, the majority of Jews stayed in Gentile lands.

 

[TomL]

No, Christ sent out His disciples to the twelve tribes living in Gentile lands to let them know their Messiah, Redeemer, and King had come. It was a remnant that returned, the majority of Jews stayed in Gentile lands.

The apostles it seemed for the most part remained in Jerusalem and other Jews were scattered in the persecution after the stoning of Stephen,