When Is A Jew Not A Jew?

[jeremiah1five]

You're pretty sure of yourself, not knowing scripture very well. Paul and the author of Hebrews (whether that's Paul or not) tell us plainly that Abraham had faith in Genesis 12:1 when God first called him; he had faith in Genesis 15:6 when God promised him a son from his own body; and he had faith in Genesis 17, both before and after he was circumcised (see the Romans verses below), which was the sign of that covenant in chapter 17.

Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called (Genesis 12:1), obeyed by going out ..."
Genesis 15:6 "Then he believed (that's faith) in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness, which Paul quotes and affirms in Romans 4:3.
Romans 4:11-12 " ... so that he MIGHT BE THE FATHER OF ALL WHO BELIEVE (that's the father of faith right there) without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps OF THE FAITH OF OUR FATHER ABRAHAM which he had while uncircumcised.

I am not saying Abraham didn't have faith. I am saying that in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17 there is no requirement nor is there any command or mention of faith in this covenant.
And the reason is because this is a covenant of God alone. God Himself walked between the animal halves while Abraham slept. Thus, this covenant is bestowed upon Abraham and his seed without any responsibility from Abraham except circumcision.
So, again I say, and it can be proven if one is honest with Scripture that there is no requirement for faith in the Abrahamic Covenant.

God saw that Abraham was a man of faith right from the start, when He called him in Genesis 12:1.

There is no Scripture that says that. You're adding to the Bible.

Then Abraham proved he had faith again in
Genesis 15:6. (quoted above) Then in Genesis 17:23-24 Abraham proved once again that he believed God by IMMEDIATE OBEDIENCE to His command by not only getting circumcised himself but ordering that Ishmael and all his servants get circumcised.

There is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

You may not see the word "faith" or "believe" in Genesis 17, but Paul confirms that Abraham had faith both before and after his circumcision.
For you to think that faith was not a requirement is absurd. If Abraham didn't have faith, there would have been NO COVENANT. There would have been NO story in the Bible about Abraham. God would have used someone else who had faith.

Again, there is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

Paul and the author of Hebrews confirm that faith not only was a requirement in Genesis 17, but has been since Adam and Eve, if anyone wishes to please God (Hebrews 11:4 - Cain and Abel and verse 6), which obviously Abraham did.
For you to say "It matters not (that) Abraham had faith." is false and unbiblical.

There is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

Where are Gentiles mentioned in the contract? You must be blind or don't want to acknowledge that they are there.

Genesis 17:5-6 " ... For I have made you the father of a MULTITUDE OF NATIONS. I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make NATIONS OF YOU, and KINGS will come forth from you." That's the Gentiles mentioned that you were looking for.

Let's look at the Scripture and RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.
FIRST of all Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They were already in existence through Ham and Japheth. Shem is an ancestor of Abraham who was an ancestor of Eber from whom Hebrews derive. Now, let's look at Scripture:

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:6.

As I said, Gentiles do not "come out of thee" (Abraham.) Scripture says Abraham was Hebrew:

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Gen. 14:13.

Those that went into Egypt were Hebrews not Gentiles. Now pay attention and learn something:

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:6.

Abraham the Hebrew had a son with an Egyptian named Hagar. His name was Ishmael. Ishmael had twelve sons just like Jacob. Ishmael "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

Isaac had two sons. Esau and Jacob. Abraham was their grandfather. These "come out of thee" (Abraham.) Gentiles do not come out of Abraham. The families of Ishmael and Esau dwelt in the land and in the process of time kings were born in this family thus fulfilling the Word God gave to Abraham that nations (non-covenant Ishmael and Esau) and kings did indeed "come out of thee" Abraham.
But Gentiles DO NOT come from the loins of Abraham.

So no one is adding faith or Gentiles to the covenant. They are BOTH ALREADY THERE.

Read above. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham the Hebrew.

 

[101G]

Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham the Hebrew.

Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." let's see this Gentile of Abraham, Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." Genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." Genesis 17:6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee." Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Genesis 17:9 "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." Genesis 17:10 "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." Genesis 17:11 "And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." Genesis 17:12 "And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed." Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." Genesis 17:14 "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." Genesis 17:15 "And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be." Genesis 17:16 "And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her." Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

LISTEN CLOSLEY, Genesis 17:18 "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!" Genesis 17:19 "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." (Now go back and Read Genesis 17:13 again). Genesis 17:20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (was Ishmael born in Abraham house? and from his LIONS? yes). Genesis 17:21 "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." Genesis 17:22 "And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham." Genesis 17:23 "And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him." Genesis 17:24 "And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." Genesis 17:25 "And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." Genesis 17:26 "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son." Genesis 17:27 "And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."

101G.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." let's see this Gentile of Abraham, Genesis 17:4 "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations." Genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee." Genesis 17:6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee." Genesis 17:7 "And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee." Genesis 17:8 "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." Genesis 17:9 "And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations." Genesis 17:10 "This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised." Genesis 17:11 "And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you." Genesis 17:12 "And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed." Genesis 17:13 "He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant." Genesis 17:14 "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." Genesis 17:15 "And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be." Genesis 17:16 "And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her." Genesis 17:17 "Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?"

LISTEN CLOSLEY, Genesis 17:18 "And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!" Genesis 17:19 "And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him." (Now go back and Read Genesis 17:13 again). Genesis 17:20 "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." (was Ishmael born in Abraham house? and from his LIONS? yes). Genesis 17:21 "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." Genesis 17:22 "And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham." Genesis 17:23 "And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him." Genesis 17:24 "And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." Genesis 17:25 "And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin." Genesis 17:26 "In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son." Genesis 17:27 "And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him."

101G.

YOU AGAIN! STOP SHOUTING! You'll wake up the neighbors.

 

[dwight92070]

I am not saying Abraham didn't have faith. I am saying that in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17 there is no requirement nor is there any command or mention of faith in this covenant.
And the reason is because this is a covenant of God alone. God Himself walked between the animal halves while Abraham slept. Thus, this covenant is bestowed upon Abraham and his seed without any responsibility from Abraham except circumcision.
So, again I say, and it can be proven if one is honest with Scripture that there is no requirement for faith in the Abrahamic Covenant.

There is no Scripture that says that. You're adding to the Bible.

There is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

Again, there is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

There is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17.

Let's look at the Scripture and RIGHTLY divide the word of truth.
FIRST of all Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham. They were already in existence through Ham and Japheth. Shem is an ancestor of Abraham who was an ancestor of Eber from whom Hebrews derive. Now, let's look at Scripture:

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:6.

As I said, Gentiles do not "come out of thee" (Abraham.) Scripture says Abraham was Hebrew:

13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; Gen. 14:13.

Those that went into Egypt were Hebrews not Gentiles. Now pay attention and learn something:

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. Gen. 17:6.

Abraham the Hebrew had a son with an Egyptian named Hagar. His name was Ishmael. Ishmael had twelve sons just like Jacob. Ishmael "come out of thee" (Abraham.)

Isaac had two sons. Esau and Jacob. Abraham was their grandfather. These "come out of thee" (Abraham.) Gentiles do not come out of Abraham. The families of Ishmael and Esau dwelt in the land and in the process of time kings were born in this family thus fulfilling the Word God gave to Abraham that nations (non-covenant Ishmael and Esau) and kings did indeed "come out of thee" Abraham.
But Gentiles DO NOT come from the loins of Abraham.

Read above. Gentiles do not come from the loins of Abraham the Hebrew.

As I said before, you don't know scripture very well. God did not walk between the animal halves in Genesis 17, as you have said. That happened in Genesis 15.
Also you can't take Genesis 15 or 17 in a vacuum, to understand them correctly. You have to go back to Abraham's original call in Genesis 12:1, and since we have the New Testament, we must use the information there about Abraham also, to understand him.
You keep on saying "There is no requirement of faith required in the Abrahamic covenant described in Genesis 17."

First off, you're referring to Genesis 15, not 17, but in either chapter the faith of Abram or Abraham WAS a requirement. How do we know that? We know that to be true from Hebrews 11:6:

"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

This has been the requirement of anyone who wishes to please God since Adam and Eve. Hebrews 11:4 tells us that even Abel wished to please God and had faith. Cain also seemed as though he wanted to please God, but not enough to actually obey Him - which would be putting his faith in God.
We know Abraham, originally Abram, wanted to please God AND he wanted to obey Him, because for most of his life, he did obey Him. He did lie about his wife, so he wasn't perfect, but overall, he was a man of faith.

To say that God required nothing of Abram when He "walked" between the animal halves is inaccurate. In Genesis 15:1, the Lord said to Abram: "Do not fear Abram, I am a shield to you; YOUR REWARD SHALL BE VERY GREAT."
Why would God give a REWARD to him, if he did nothing to "earn" it? What did he "do" to earn it? He believed God, and God reckoned it to him as righteousness (as if he had worked for it). Because Abram pleased God, had faith in God and obeyed God. These were God's requirements and Abram met those requirements. Abram DID what God originally told him to do in Genesis 12:1. He left his country, and his relatives, and even his father's house, to obey and follow God and please Him. Abram had not veered away from God's requirements either in Genesis 15 or 17. In chapter 15:6, it says; "Then he believed in the Lord; and He (God) reckoned it to him as righteousness."

Even in Genesis 17:1 and 10, God had requirements for Abram, including faith. What were they? 1. Walk before Me", i.e. reverently acknowledge Me; 2. "and be blameless", i.e. live a godly life; and 3. Circumcise your sons and your servants, and even be circumcised yourself.

You said that when God "walked" between the animal halves, it was a covenant of God alone. Wrong. The only use of the word "covenant" in chapter 15, where the animal halves are mentioned, is in verse 18 - "On that day, the Lord MADE A COVENANT WITH ABRAM, ..." So it was NOT a covenant of God alone.

Also, those who went to Egypt, even though they were descendants of Eber, were not generally called Hebrews - they were called the sons of Israel. When they came out of Egypt, they were the nation of Israel. Israel had a son, Judah, and over the centuries after the Exodus, and after they entered the promised land, they eventually took on the name "Jew", which was a short name for Judah, which was the southern kingdom of Israel. To the Jew, a Gentile was a foreigner, or any other people who were not part of the Jewish race, descendants of Jacob.

The descendants of Ishmael were considered Gentiles, because they were not descended from Jacob. The descendants of Abraham's six sons, who Keturah bore him after Sarah died, were also considered Gentiles, because they too were not descended from Jacob. The sons of Esau were Gentiles because they were not descended from Jacob.

To say that Gentiles did not come from the loins of Abraham is preposterous. By definition, the ONLY people who are NOT Gentiles are Judah, his eleven brothers, and their descendants. Technically, even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could be considered Gentiles, going by the strict definition. But we know that they are part of the "Israel of God" as Paul put it, which is all those who have the faith of Abraham, whether Jew of Gentile. Another term for that is the remnant of Israel, or the olive tree in Romans 11:17, or the body of Christ. Even those who had faith before Abraham could be considered part of the body of Christ.

Also ANY Gentile, back then AND now, who repents and turns in faith to God and to Jesus after He came, can become part of the Israel of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

As I said before, you don't know scripture very well. God did not walk between the animal halves in Genesis 17, as you have said. That happened in Genesis 15.

I didn't say He walked between the halves in Genesis 17.

Also you can't take Genesis 15 or 17 in a vacuum, to understand them correctly. You have to go back to Abraham's original call in Genesis 12:1, and since we have the New Testament, we must use the information there about Abraham also, to understand him.
You keep on saying "There is no requirement of faith required in the Abrahamic covenant described in Genesis 17."
First off, you're referring to Genesis 15, not 17, but in either chapter the faith of Abram or Abraham WAS a requirement. How do we know that? We know that to be true from Hebrews 11:6:
"And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

The Abrahamic Covenant is described in Genesis 17. There is no requirement of faith in this covenant described in Genesis 17 where covenant is made. I'm not talking about Abraham or whether he had faith/trust. He did. I'm talking about the covenant in Genesis 17.

This has been the requirement of anyone who wishes to please God since Adam and Eve. Hebrews 11:4 tells us that even Abel wished to please God and had faith. Cain also seemed as though he wanted to please God, but not enough to actually obey Him - which would be putting his faith in God.
We know Abraham, originally Abram, wanted to please God AND he wanted to obey Him, because for most of his life, he did obey Him. He did lie about his wife, so he wasn't perfect, but overall, he was a man of faith.

I'm talking about the covenant God made in Genesis 17. HERE there is no requirement of faith. If God wanted faith to be in this covenant He would have said so just as He said He wanted obedience in the Mosaic Covenant.

To say that God required nothing of Abram when He "walked" between the animal halves is inaccurate. In Genesis 15:1, the Lord said to Abram: "Do not fear Abram, I am a shield to you; YOUR REWARD SHALL BE VERY GREAT."
Why would God give a REWARD to him, if he did nothing to "earn" it? What did he "do" to earn it? He believed God, and God reckoned it to him as righteousness (as if he had worked for it). Because Abram pleased God, had faith in God and obeyed God. These were God's requirements and Abram met those requirements. Abram DID what God originally told him to do in Genesis 12:1. He left his country, and his relatives, and even his father's house, to obey and follow God and please Him. Abram had not veered away from God's requirements either in Genesis 15 or 17. In chapter 15:6, it says; "Then he believed in the Lord; and He (God) reckoned it to him as righteousness."

There is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant made in Genesis 17. Stick to 17. That's where the covenant is made and there is no requirement of faith in this covenant. Adding faith after the covenant doesn't mention it or after the covenant was made is simply adding to the covenant.

Even in Genesis 17:1 and 10, God had requirements for Abram, including faith. What were they? 1. Walk before Me", i.e. reverently acknowledge Me; 2. "and be blameless", i.e. live a godly life; and 3. Circumcise your sons and your servants, and even be circumcised yourself.
You said that when God "walked" between the animal halves, it was a covenant of God alone. Wrong. The only use of the word "covenant" in chapter 15, where the animal halves are mentioned, is in verse 18 - "On that day, the Lord MADE A COVENANT WITH ABRAM, ..." So it was NOT a covenant of God alone.

Look at the covenant in Genesis 17. There is no mention of faith nor is there any requirement of faith in this covenant.

Also, those who went to Egypt, even though they were descendants of Eber, were not generally called Hebrews - they were called the sons of Israel. When they came out of Egypt, they were the nation of Israel. Israel had a son, Judah, and over the centuries after the Exodus, and after they entered the promised land, they eventually took on the name "Jew", which was a short name for Judah, which was the southern kingdom of Israel. To the Jew, a Gentile was a foreigner, or any other people who were not part of the Jewish race, descendants of Jacob.

I know that. I'm not talking about the Mosaic Covenant.

The descendants of Ishmael were considered Gentiles, because they were not descended from Jacob. The descendants of Abraham's six sons, who Keturah bore him after Sarah died, were also considered Gentiles, because they too were not descended from Jacob. The sons of Esau were Gentiles because they were not descended from Jacob.

The descendants of Ishmael may be considered Gentile, but they are not. They are descendant of Abram the Hebrew and Hagar an Egyptian. Ishmael was half-Hebrew and half Egyptian. Just as an Israelite and an Assyrian or Babylonian after the Exile, Samaritan, if you will. Half and half. Gentiles DO NOT come from the loins of Abraham. Be clear on that.

To say that Gentiles did not come from the loins of Abraham is preposterous. By definition, the ONLY people who are NOT Gentiles are Judah, his eleven brothers, and their descendants. Technically, even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob could be considered Gentiles, going by the strict definition. But we know that they are part of the "Israel of God" as Paul put it, which is all those who have the faith of Abraham, whether Jew of Gentile. Another term for that is the remnant of Israel, or the olive tree in Romans 11:17, or the body of Christ. Even those who had faith before Abraham could be considered part of the body of Christ.

In Genesis 14:13 Abram is identified as Hebrew (from the line of Eber, the father of the Hebrews.) If Abram married Sarai who was the daughter of Haran, this means Haran is also Hebrew and Abram married his niece. There are no Gentiles in this family line and no, Gentiles do not come from the Hebrew line. God made no covenant with Gentiles.

Also ANY Gentile, back then AND now, who repents and turns in faith to God and to Jesus after He came, can become part of the Israel of God.

Only IF God grants it:

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18.

If God does not grant repentance, then no one can be saved. Salvation is of the LORD (Jonah 2:9.)

 

[dwight92070]

You don't seem to get it. EVERY COVENANT God ever made in the scripture required faith, since "without faith, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God". And God isn't going to make a covenant with anyone who doesn't want to please Him. You can say "there's no requirement of faith in Gen. 17" until you're blue in the face - you're still wrong. You're obsessed with your own little pet doctrine.
God made no covenant with Gentiles??
Then I guess I'm not saved after all, because I, a Gentile, thought when I decided to follow Jesus, who is God, that I entered into the New Covenant with Him.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You don't seem to get it. EVERY COVENANT God ever made in the scripture required faith, since "without faith, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God". And God isn't going to make a covenant with anyone who doesn't want to please Him. You can say "there's no requirement of faith in Gen. 17" until you're blue in the face - you're still wrong. You're obsessed with your own little pet doctrine.
God made no covenant with Gentiles??
Then I guess I'm not saved after all, because I, a Gentile, thought when I decided to follow Jesus, who is God, that I entered into the New Covenant with Him.

Look, if it's not chapter and verse then it's chatter or worse.
Show me the money! Show me the Scripture!

 

[dwight92070]

Look, if it's not chapter and verse then it's chatter or worse.
Show me the money! Show me the Scripture!

I already did that but you won't listen. It's your way or the highway. You can deceive others with your wrong interpretation, but I'm not drinking the koolaid.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I already did that but you won't listen. It's your way or the highway. You can deceive others with your wrong interpretation, but I'm not drinking the koolaid.

Look. Show me in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17 God requiring faith. That's all.
All this going in circles...
Again, show me in the Abrahamic Covenant described in Genesis 17 any requirement of faith in this covenant. In the Mosaic Covenant God requires obedience and says so, but there is no requirement of faith in the Abrahamic Covenant. If there was God would say so as part of the requirement for it.
Just show me.

 

[dwight92070]

jeremiah1five is preaching a different gospel than Paul preached and Paul said to the Gentiles and the Jews in the churches in Galatia:

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!"

The promise to Abraham was not only given to him, but to His seed, which Paul tells us is Christ. Galatians 3:16
"And if you belong to Christ (Jew or Gentile), then you are Abraham's seed (the body of Christ), heirs according to the promise."
"And in your seed (Christ) all the families (Jew or Gentile) of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 22:18 and Acts 3:25

God is not a racist, giving special privileges to one race over all others. Anything given to the Jews was meant to bless not only them, but all the families of the earth, which is why, under the Old Covenant, any Gentile could convert to the faith of the Jews.

jeremiah1five's obsession with who's an ethnic Jew and who isn't, is sheer nonsense, and when he preaches that, then he puts himself under the curse that Paul warned us of. Besides, there no such thing as a pure descendant of Abraham, at least not one that can be identified as such. Throughout the centuries the Jews have intermarried with non-Jews thousands and thousands of times. There's no way of knowing who has descended from Abraham and who hasn't, which is another reason why it doesn't matter.

The good news of Paul is that ALL of mankind is offered the opportunity to become a true Jew, that is inwardly, and to become part of the "Israel of God", through the blessing of Abraham's seed - Christ. jeremiah1five can deny that all he wants, but only at the risk of coming under Paul's curse.

 

[jeremiah1five]

jeremiah1five is preaching a different gospel than Paul preached and Paul said to the Gentiles and the Jews in the churches in Galatia:

Oh, crap! The thought-police! RUN!
Really now. Have I 'taught' a Gentile has to be circumcised?

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you have received, he is to be accursed!"

The promise to Abraham was not only given to him, but to His seed, which Paul tells us is Christ. Galatians 3:16
"And if you belong to Christ (Jew or Gentile), then you are Abraham's seed (the body of Christ), heirs according to the promise."
"And in your seed (Christ) all the families (Jew or Gentile) of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 22:18 and Acts 3:25

If the Abrahamic Covenant was given to anyone else other than to Abraham's seed post the Scripture which supports your belief.
And if God wanted Gentiles to be part of the Abrahamic Covenant, He would have said so when He made covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17. But God didn't and they isn't.

Talk about a misapplication of Scripture. Sounds like another gospel to me, one that seems to benefit only Gentiles. What? Can Israel enjoy their covenants with God without Gentiles trying to steal their inheritance. Saul is addressing his Jewish brethren who are also born-again believers in Christ and trying to assuage their concern that by believing Jesus is their Messiah whether they are still Abraham's seed. Look at the context and the flow of thought.
Saul is writing to Jewish Christians:

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal. 3:1–2.

And again:

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. Gal. 3:4.

This was because Jews persecuted them as a heretical sect (same as what Saul did before meeting Jesus on the Damascene Road.)

And again, addressing Jewish Christians Saul is making his Jewish Christian brethren understand that as Jews and the seed of Abraham and being a Christ-follower they were still children of Abraham and their covenant was intact and still applied to them:

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. Gal. 3:6–7.

Finally, Saul declares that to go back to being a Judaizer they would be under a curse for they are bound to obey every jot and tittle of the Law or come under a curse. It was the same persecution Jewish Christians endured and the writer of Hebrews telling them that it is 'impossible' to go back (Hebrews 6:4-6.)

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal. 3:10.

And

13 Christ hath redeemed us [JEWS] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [JEWS]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal. 3:13.

And

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal. 3:16.
(The promises were never given to Gentiles for there are no Gentiles mentioned in Genesis 17 where the promises are described, and covenant made)

And (skipping a couple of places because I shouldn't have to teach you, I'm not your daddy.)
Now for the finale:

23 But before faith came, we [JEWS] were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our [JEWS] schoolmaster (the Law) to bring us [JEWS] unto Christ, that we [JEWS] might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we [JEWS] are no longer under a schoolmaster (the Law).
26 For ye [JEWS] are all [JEWS] the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you [JEWS] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye [JEWS] are all [JEWS] one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye [JEWS] be Christ’s, then are ye [JEWS] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:23–29.

Abraham and his seed (Isaac, Jacob, children of Israel) are the recipients of the promises God gave to this family. The family line ended at Christ (He had not married and had no biological children despite Dan Brown), and as you can see the context there were Jewish Christians who were concerned about their standing in the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenants God made with Abraham and the children of Israel, respectively, until Saul had to explain it to them about "seed" and "curse of the Law" and their "inheritance" under these covenants. And in my humble opinion Saul does an excellent job doing so.

God is not a racist, giving special privileges to one race over all others.

Well, He sure proved it in not only choosing Abram the Hebrew and giving him covenant over all the families of the earth and giving him circumcision, which separated his family from all the other families of the earth - even Ishmael's who received blessing from God but not covenant and not circumcision.

Anything given to the Jews was meant to bless not only them, but all the families of the earth, which is why, under the Old Covenant, any Gentile could convert to the faith of the Jews.

Yes, they had to take a vow, offer sacrifices, and circumcise their penis. Gentiles that didn't do this in these times were NOT covenant.

jeremiah1five's obsession with who's an ethnic Jew and who isn't, is sheer nonsense, and when he preaches that, then he puts himself under the curse that Paul warned us of.

You started out accusing me of 'preaching' a different gospel than what Saul preached, and the original context of what Saul said had to do with circumcision. Now, are you changing the original accusation to "ethnicity" or are you adding a second charge, now one of ethnicity?
[Edit..Ad Hominem comments]

Besides, there no such thing as a pure descendant of Abraham, at least not one that can be identified as such.

Go to Israel and ask a Jew that question. Better yet, send an email to Jews for Jesus and ask them that question.

Throughout the centuries the Jews have intermarried with non-Jews thousands and thousands of times.

Once their genes got mixed up with non-Jews, they couldn't go back.

There's no way of knowing who has descended from Abraham and who hasn't, which is another reason why it doesn't matter.

Coming from a hard-core, uncircumcised Gentile.
[see above.]

The good news of Paul is that ALL of mankind is offered the opportunity to become a true Jew, that is inwardly, and to become part of the "Israel of God", through the blessing of Abraham's seed - Christ. jeremiah1five can deny that all he wants, but only at the risk of coming under Paul's curse.

Ah, so you 'preach' Universalism. Talk about another gospel! Are you going to accuse Reformers of teaching 'another gospel'?
[Edit …Ad Hominem comments]

You can ask Jesus when He returns about circumcision and ethnicity since you refuse to believe the Scripture.
Another gospel.
LOL.

 

[dwight92070]

A true Jew, one who is part of the remnant of Israel, would not insult and condemn their brothers in Christ, as you did several times in #271, and therefore your comments needed to be edited. I am a Gentile, a non-Jew by birth, but I am part of the Israel of God, because I have been grafted into the olive tree, which is the remnant of Israel. How did I arrive here? By faith in Christ, the seed of Abraham - the same kind of faith in God that Abraham had even before he was circumcised. Paul said, "Circumcision is nothing. and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." But isn't circumcision one of God's commandments? Yes, it was until Jesus fulfilled all of the ceremonial laws, including circumcision, on the cross. So what commandments are we to obey? The moral laws will not pass away, because to break them is to violate the very character of God. This is why sabbath-keeping is the only one of the Ten Commandments NOT repeated in the New Covenant. Also, under the New Covenant, we are to keep the commandments of Jesus.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works (Sabbath keeping, circumcision, Jewish feasts, temple sacrifices, new moon observance, etc. - all these are ceremonial laws that have been fulfilled in Christ), otherwise grace is no longer grace.
"What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but the election obtained it (that is all those who had faith in Christ), and the rest were hardened. Romans 11:7
If you are a Jew and you are looking for the fulfillment of God's promises to you under the Old Covenant, you will not experience the fulfillment of those promises without faith in Christ. The promise of the land was fulfilled long ago. Joshua 21:43 Every promise to return to their homeland was fulfilled when they came back from Babylon. And who came back? Primarily the remnant. Most of the Jews chose to stay in Babylon.
There remains NO promises for natural Israel. All the promises of God were given to the true Israel, the Israel of God, the remnant of believing Jews, and also to believing non-Jews as well.

 

[jeremiah1five]

A true Jew, one who is part of the remnant of Israel,

There is no "remnant" except those identified by Isaiah and of who will return to their Promised Land after Cyrus gave the order to do so. Only a remnant returned (Isaiah 10:22.)

would not insult and condemn their brothers in Christ, as you did several times in #271, and therefore your comments needed to be edited.

I checked and found no insults. Maybe you can post them or recant.

I am a Gentile, a non-Jew by birth, but I am part of the Israel of God, because I have been grafted into the olive tree, which is the remnant of Israel.

Boy are you mixed up. Hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles are never grafted into Israel. But circumcised, covenant Gentile proselytes are. You fail to realize all the covenants are with the Hebrews/Jews, Messiah is a Jewish Messiah promised to the House of Israel and there are no Gentiles in the House of Israel. There are no Gentiles anywhere in God's covenants made with Abraham, the children of Israel, nor with the House of Israel. NONE.

How did I arrive here? By faith in Christ, the seed of Abraham - the same kind of faith in God that Abraham had even before he was circumcised. Paul said, "Circumcision is nothing. and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God." But isn't circumcision one of God's commandments? Yes, it was until Jesus fulfilled all of the ceremonial laws, including circumcision, on the cross. So what commandments are we to obey? The moral laws will not pass away, because to break them is to violate the very character of God. This is why sabbath-keeping is the only one of the Ten Commandments NOT repeated in the New Covenant. Also, under the New Covenant, we are to keep the commandments of Jesus.

If you are learning anything according to the bible you would know God has made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and to his seed, a people that will be known later as the children of Israel and NO GENTILES come from the loins of Abraham. NONE. And as to your claim to being Gentiles take note: Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. NEVER. God has made NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES. NONE. And it makes no sense for you, a Gentile, to never be under the Law then claim to be a Christian and then place yourself under the Law - moral or otherwise. Makes no sense. Didn't Saul say, "in whatever condition you find yourself in when you became saved to not seek to be something else"??
ISRAEL in under the Law. Still.

"But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works (Sabbath keeping, circumcision, Jewish feasts, temple sacrifices, new moon observance, etc. - all these are ceremonial laws that have been fulfilled in Christ), otherwise grace is no longer grace.
"What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but the election obtained it (that is all those who had faith in Christ), and the rest were hardened. Romans 11:7
If you are a Jew and you are looking for the fulfillment of God's promises to you under the Old Covenant, you will not experience the fulfillment of those promises without faith in Christ. The promise of the land was fulfilled long ago. Joshua 21:43 Every promise to return to their homeland was fulfilled when they came back from Babylon. And who came back? Primarily the remnant. Most of the Jews chose to stay in Babylon.
There remains NO promises for natural Israel. All the promises of God were given to the true Israel, the Israel of God, the remnant of believing Jews, and also to believing non-Jews as well.

There are dozens of prophetic promises God made to Israel that still need to be fulfilled. Dozens.
And the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was made by God with the House of Israel, and you are not any way connected to Israel.
God is saving Gentiles without a covenant. IF God wanted uncircumcised Gentiles to be part of the Hebrew/Jewish covenants He would have said so. Instead among Christians today there is wholesale misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants - ALL COVENANTS GOD MADE WITH THE HEBREW/JEWISH nation of people.

 

[dwight92070]

There is no "remnant" except those identified by Isaiah and of who will return to their Promised Land after Cyrus gave the order to do so. Only a remnant returned (Isaiah 10:22.)

Dwight - Romans 11:5 "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice". Here Paul said there was a remnant, even in his day. Once again, you are wrong when you say the only remnant was just those who returned to their land after Cyrus' order.

I checked and found no insults. Maybe you can post them or recant.

Dwight - You found no insults because the Admin edited your comments out and you CAN see exactly where they did that. Since they were edited out, you and I both know that they did not conform to the forum rules of not attacking the other person personally. Besides, since the Admin rightfully edited your insults and condemnation of me, they are no longer seen, and I have forgotten what each one was, except maybe two. You called me a "youngster", which is an insult, and you know it. The obvious meaning of this put-down is that you are the "elder", and I am just an immature child, so how would I know anything? You also called me a "hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentile" and you did it again in the following paragraph. This too is a mean remark meant as a perjorative.

Dwight - By the way, I didn't know that you had proof that I was uncircumcised. Maybe you can post your proof or recant.

Boy are you mixed up. Hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles are never grafted into Israel.

Dwight - Please quote the Bible verse that says this or recant. While you search in vain, let me give you a couple of verses that say the opposite:
Romans 11:17 "But if some of the branches (unbelieving Jews) were broken off, and you, being a wild olive (hard-core,uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles), were grafted in among them (believing Jews) and became partaker with them of the rich root (the promises and the covenants) of the olive tree.

Dwight - Maybe you wouldn't mind if from now on, I referred to you as a hard-core, circumcised, covenant Jew?

But circumcised, covenant Gentile proselytes are. You fail to realize all the covenants are with the Hebrews/Jews, Messiah is a Jewish Messiah promised to the House of Israel and there are no Gentiles in the House of Israel. There are no Gentiles anywhere in God's covenants made with Abraham, the children of Israel, nor with the House of Israel. NONE.

Dwight - "no Gentiles in the House of Israel.?" So Ruth, the Moabitess, did not become part of the house of Israel? Rahab the Canaanite harlot, did not become part of the house of Israel? The mixed multitude (non-Jews) that came out of Egypt with the children of Israel, did not become part of the house of Israel? Bathsheba, a Gillonite, wife of Uriah, the Hittite, did not become part of the house of Israel? What about the Gentile Cornelius and his family? Were they not grafted into the olive tree of Jewish believers, becoming part of the house of true Israel? Yes, yes, and yes. I am a Gentile and I have been grafted into the Israel of God by the new creation of being born again by faith in Jesus, and I am Abraham's seed, and a fellow heir according to promise. "And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise." Gal. 3:29

If you are learning anything according to the bible you would know God has made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and to his seed, a people that will be known later as the children of Israel and NO GENTILES come from the loins of Abraham. NONE. And as to your claim to being Gentiles take note: Gentiles were NEVER under the Law. NEVER. God has made NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES. NONE. And it makes no sense for you, a Gentile, to never be under the Law then claim to be a Christian and then place yourself under the Law - moral or otherwise. Makes no sense. Didn't Saul say, "in whatever condition you find yourself in when you became saved to not seek to be something else"??
ISRAEL in under the Law. Still.

Dwight - I never claimed to be under the Law of Moses. I am, however, a fellow heir of the promises given to Abraham, through Christ. But all of mankind is commanded to repent, and to become God's children and to imitate Him. That means we are required to not violate His moral standards, which the law just happens to describe to us.

There are dozens of prophetic promises God made to Israel that still need to be fulfilled. Dozens.

Dwight - Please post just a handful of the dozens, or even a dozen promises that have not been fulfilled. All the promises of returning to their homeland refer to returning from Babylon. Fulfilled. All of the Messianic promises have been fulfilled. All the promises of a future earthly kingdom for Israel are symbolic and are for true Jews and true Israel - disciples of Christ. There may be a few promises of a future new heaven and a new earth, but again, those promises belong to the the true Jews and the true Israel, and they will be fulfilled for those people only, which includes believing Gentiles. So there are very few promises that have yet to be fulfilled.
Jesus spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. in Luke 21:22"because these are the days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled." So Jesus implies here that most, if not all, prophecy was fulfilled by 70 A.D.

Dwight -All of God's promises were to true Israel, and to true Jews. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God." Romans 2:28-29
And the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34 was made by God with the House of Israel, and you are not any way connected to Israel.
Dwight - It's possible that I am more connected to physical Israel than you are. But I am definitely connected to the true Israel through Christ and I am definitely part of the New Covenant through the blood of Jesus. We remember His body and His blood on a regular basis, which is the New Covenant, that we are part of.
Dwight - But am I physically part of Israel? Maybe not, only God knows. I could have more Jewish blood in me than you do. Again, NOBODY today can PROVE they are physical descendants of Abraham, not Jews for Jesus, not Jews in Israel, NOBODY. They would have to produce a family tree that goes all the way back to Abraham - which nobody has done. Even if they could, how could we prove it's accuracy? There's NO WAY. And even if they could prove its accuracy, so what? God's not impressed with anyone being physically Jewish. That counts for nothing. Paul said he counts all of his Jewish heritage as rubbish, compared to the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus his Lord.

God is saving Gentiles without a covenant.

Dwight - No, Peter was shown in Acts 10 that Gentiles too were welcome to God through the blood of Jesus. If we (Gentiles) are not part of that New Covenant, then His laws are not put on our minds and written on our hearts, He is not our God, and we are not His people, He will not be merciful to our iniquities, and He will remember our sins. Hebrews 8:10-12 Paul assures Gentiles that we too, along with believing Jews, can come near to Him and be the true spiritual Israel of God. If Gentiles are not part of the new covenant, then we would be forbidden to take the Lord's supper. On the contrary, we are encouraged and commanded to take it.

Dwight - Jesus commanded His disciples and Paul reiterated that command to believing Gentiles to regularly partake of the Lord's supper to remember His death and thereby acknowledge our part in the New Covenant.

IF God wanted uncircumcised Gentiles to be part of the Hebrew/Jewish covenants He would have said so. Instead among Christians today there is wholesale misinterpretation and misunderstanding of the Abrahamic, Mosaic, and New Covenants - ALL COVENANTS GOD MADE WITH THE HEBREW/JEWISH nation of people.

Dwight - Jesus tore down the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles. You are attempting to rebuild that wall.
Dwight - By the way, why do you insist on calling Paul, Saul? By doing this, you dishonor the Word of God, which, after Acts 13:9, ALWAYS calls him Paul. There's no record after that of him ever being called Saul again. It's quite obvious that Saul was the violent persecutor of Christians, but Paul's reputation is the beloved apostle to the Gentiles. It appears that God's word wants to focus on the new man, Paul, not the old man, Saul. Why don't you?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Dwight - Jesus tore down the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles. You are attempting to rebuild that wall.

Not even. There still remains a wall of separation.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 1 Cor. 10:32.

There has always been a wall of separation in human history.
God brought separation between the Sethian family line and the non-covenant 'daughters of men.'
God separated Abram from his family (although Abraham brought his father-in-law with him when God told him to leave his family behind.)
Circumcision was that separation between covenant and non-covenant.
Building line upon line and precept upon precept, and glory to glory God gave Israel His Law in a "part two" covenant that separated His circumcised covenant people from non-covenant uncircumcised Gentiles. He gave command to circumcised covenant Israel to 'not mingle with the uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles nor learn their ways.
Building upon that separation God gave the House of Israel and the House of Judah a New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) which emphasized separation between the Law (Holy Spirit) God would put in the inward parts of His covenant people Israel proper which separated covenant Israel from non-covenant Gentiles.
All God's covenants have one thing in common, that is, those He makes covenant with have their names in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
There is separation between sheep and goats, and this is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our sight.

Dwight - By the way, why do you insist on calling Paul, Saul? By doing this, you dishonor the Word of God, which, after Acts 13:9, ALWAYS calls him Paul. There's no record after that of him ever being called Saul again. It's quite obvious that Saul was the violent persecutor of Christians, but Paul's reputation is the beloved apostle to the Gentiles. It appears that God's word wants to focus on the new man, Paul, not the old man, Saul. Why don't you?

It may appear so, but Christ called out to Saul, not Paul on the road to Damascus.
Being a Biblical Christian I do as my Lord does (if and when He gives me leave to do so), and say what God says. To do otherwise is to oppose God.
The name of Paul is Gentile/Roman derived, and he was a Roman citizen which is appropriate in both cases. But I find no name change made by God in Scripture. Using Paul is an evangelical gimmick to make him, a Hebrew, more acceptable to Gentiles.

 

[dwight92070]

Not even. There still remains a wall of separation.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 1 Cor. 10:32.

There has always been a wall of separation in human history.
God brought separation between the Sethian family line and the non-covenant 'daughters of men.'
God separated Abram from his family (although Abraham brought his father-in-law with him when God told him to leave his family behind.)
Circumcision was that separation between covenant and non-covenant.
Building line upon line and precept upon precept, and glory to glory God gave Israel His Law in a "part two" covenant that separated His circumcised covenant people from non-covenant uncircumcised Gentiles. He gave command to circumcised covenant Israel to 'not mingle with the uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles nor learn their ways.
Building upon that separation God gave the House of Israel and the House of Judah a New Covenant (Jer. 31:31-34) which emphasized separation between the Law (Holy Spirit) God would put in the inward parts of His covenant people Israel proper which separated covenant Israel from non-covenant Gentiles.
All God's covenants have one thing in common, that is, those He makes covenant with have their names in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.
There is separation between sheep and goats, and this is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our sight.

It may appear so, but Christ called out to Saul, not Paul on the road to Damascus.
Being a Biblical Christian I do as my Lord does (if and when He gives me leave to do so), and say what God says. To do otherwise is to oppose God.
The name of Paul is Gentile/Roman derived, and he was a Roman citizen which is appropriate in both cases. But I find no name change made by God in Scripture. Using Paul is an evangelical gimmick to make him, a Hebrew, more acceptable to Gentiles.

 

[dwight92070]

"But even if we,or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed" Gal. 1:8

 

[jeremiah1five]

"But even if we,or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed" Gal. 1:8

Identify the "good news" gospel that Saul is referencing that he calls another "good news gospel."

 

[101G]

Identify the "good news" gospel that Saul is referencing that he calls another "good news gospel."

Another Gospel is not what the Lord Jesus preached/taught. i.e. some preached without the KNOWLEDGE of the Holy Spirit, some had not even heard of the Holy Spirit/Ghost. Acts 19:2 "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." that's another Gospel right there. and some just knew the scripture, but without Spiritual discernment. i.e. Acts 18:24 "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus."
yes, he was MIGHTY IN THE SCRIPTURES, but no discernment from the Holy Spirit, because he had to be corrected and taught himself... i.e. Acts 18:24 "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus." Acts 18:25 "This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Acts 18:26 "And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

101G.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Dwight - Jesus tore down the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles. You are attempting to rebuild that wall.
Dwight - By the way, why do you insist on calling Paul, Saul? By doing this, you dishonor the Word of God, which, after Acts 13:9, ALWAYS calls him Paul. There's no record after that of him ever being called Saul again. It's quite obvious that Saul was the violent persecutor of Christians, but Paul's reputation is the beloved apostle to the Gentiles. It appears that God's word wants to focus on the new man, Paul, not the old man, Saul. Why don't you?

There have been multiple Divine actions of God throughout history where God sought to limit the impact of sin and promote salvation within humanity. One of those actions was to reestablish the Godly line of Seth through Abraham.