Um, we have not witnessed Esua murder Christ.
Not read he murdered half the apostles.
Not read he is still murdering up to now.
What is the New Covenant?
- Thread starter jeremiah1five
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Not read he murdered half the apostles.
Not read he is still murdering up to now.
From after he is born until now?Certainly not before Esau was born.
But, I find this true throughout most of history, including the parts where there isn't a kingdom of Edom to point at.
During the Exodus, the kingdom of Edom impeded Israel's progress from Egypt to the Promised Land.
Moses married a Kenite - they're a tribe of Edom. Moses was taught how to be a priest by his father-in-law Jethro, again a Kenite. Many scholars think that the Judaism of Moses was the native religion of the Kenites and Midianites.
The Kenite tribe covenanted itself together with Israel during the Exodus. They received cities in Judah alongside the Israelites, including Hebron, which was the first capital of Judah (!). The 1st four judges in Judges were Kenites.
The Edomites and Amalekites (who are also a tribe of Edom) remained a thorn in the side of Israel under Saul and David. Solomon put them to work in his mines, but allowed them to continue living in southern Judah. They turned a substantial portion of the desert into the world's largest slag heap.
During the Babylonian captivity, the Edomites invaded the depopulated land of Judah and took it for themselves (Obadiah).
The Maccabean kings had continual conflict with Edom. When John Hyrcanus re-took some of the lands the Edomites had claimed, he converted the people to Judaism rather than driving them out. They remained among the Israelites and proved to be the most pious practitioners of Moses' Judaism... which is their native religion, after all.
I believe Jesus 'tares among the wheat' parable is an allusion to those Edomites within Israel, who had become the lawyers and strict law-keeping Pharisees that John rebuked as 'generation of vipers.'
And of course, before Herod the Great was great, he was Herod the Idumean. Idumea is just another word for Edom.
The pattern for Esau in the Bible is clear. Edom lives beside and within Israel, and conquers and oppresses it from within. He pretends to be Israel. He pretends to be a pious believer in God, and he loves most of all to point out to others their sins, to make himself look righteous.
We still have a lot of Edom in the church today, and modern Israel still has a lot of Edom in its government.
I stopped my chronology at the 1st century, but yes.
Esau has continued to exist within Israel as false Israelites even down to the present day.
So it is not the single person Esau, the brother of Jacob.
Those both get blamed on the Jews. But were they the real ones, or the fake ones?
Romans 9:6 For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
It's his descendants.
It's common in the Old Testament to refer to all of a certain person's descendants by the name of their ancestor. E.g. Israel is a guy but also all his descendants.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
The angel Gabriel told Mary that her child is the prophesied Messiah who would save "His people" (Israel) from their sins. When Christ arrived, He did exactly that, He saved His people (Israel) from their sins.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Matthew 1:21–23.
The angel quotes the prophet Isaiah 7:14, which was a prophecy given by God to the children of Israel. "God with us" refers to Israel and God's promise to send a Deliverer "like unto Moses" who led the children of Israel through the desert until they arrived at Mount Sinai, where God gave His Law to the children of Israel. Gentiles were NEVER given God's Laws.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That's true. The Hebrew people were cut off from Israel the land. They were taken captive by the Assyrians and later, the southern kingdom of Judah was also conquered and taken into exile by the Babylonians in 585 BC.
You can multiply your 27,290 by approximately 722 years and the number jumps into over one million who were born outside Israel and in Gentile lands. This covers approximately 29-35 generations of Jews who were born, grew up, and died in Gentiles lands. From these couple of million Jews in Gentile lands only a remnant returned to Israel, first with Nehemiah and later, with Ezra. The majority of all Jews who were alive and living in Gentile lands at the coming of Christ were the target audience that Jesus Christ sent His eleven disciples to go to with the message of Israel's Messiah and King had come - and gone - and the good news, or gospel, they were instructed to herald was simply this: "God has kept His promise" and that promise is detailed several times in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, specifically, Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18.
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deuteronomy 18:15.
and
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18.
From the days in which Moses made this promise to the children of Israel from their God, the I AM, every succeeding generation had hoped to be the generation that would "see" this Prophet's coming but as we see from Scripture it took many more centuries before God would KEEP HIS PROMISE to send this prophesied Deliverer "like unto Moses."
The Early Date of the Exodus from Egypt (c. 1446 BCE): This date is derived from a literal reading of 1 Kings 6:1 in the Bible, which states that King Solomon began building the Temple 480 years after the Israelites left Egypt. Based on the widely accepted date for the start of Solomon's Temple construction (around 967 BCE), this calculation places the Exodus at approximately 1446 BCE (in the mid-15th century BCE). From the moment of Moses' prophecy from God to send a "prophet like unto [Moses]" until Jesus' birth and the fulfillment of said promise is about fifteen centuries, or 1500 years. IF this Prophet was to be sent to the children of Israel, then the children of Israel would have to exist when this promised Deliverer would come. As we can see from Peter's words the twelve tribes of Israel were still alive and living in Israel and throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. Peter says:
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea (two southern kingdom tribes), and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Acts 2:14.
and
22 Ye men of Israel (ten northern kingdom tribes), hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 2:22.
Peter is addressing the twelve tribes of Israel during the Jewish Feast of Harvest, which was one of three holy days God instructed males to observe in Israel and being this was that feast, there were over a hundred thousand Jews who lived in Israel and who lived in Gentile lands that came to Jerusalem as commanded by God to attend these feasts. Not only did Peter have a message, he also had an audience in which to give it to - the twelve tribes of Israel.
From there, when the celebration was over, Jews and mixed heritage Jews returned to their homes and synagogues taking with them their experience in the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel), and an outline of Peter's sermon, and witnessed the "power from on high" in their lives and became the LORD'S early heralds of God's message to the twelve tribes of Israel that their Messiah and King had come.
By the time Saul and Barnabas had taken their travels into Asia Minor, there were already Jewish Christians in these main cities of Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, etc., who were the Lord's early ambassadors to their fellow Jews in the cities where they lived. The early churches outside of Israel were existing when Saul and Barnabas made their trips into Asia Minor (Acts 13-28.)
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes and according to the Mystery Gentiles are included in His People, thats why they also rejoice with His People Rom 15:9-11
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
The word with μετά :
1. (properly) denoting accompaniment
2. "amid" (local or causal)
to be with one i. e. on one's side: Matthew 12:30; Luke 11:23, (and often in classical Greek); similarly μένειν μετά τίνος, to side with one steadfastly, 1 John 2:19.
c. with the genitive of the person who is another's associate either in acting or in his experiences;
The Gentiles with His People experience New Covenant Mercy and Salvation
e v e
Active Member
that's not what i said.... plus, esau is a type ...
such logic sounds like
"i will not notice or believe the enemy's gloating of his own crimes against us since america is great"
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Those 27K people were all from the tribe of Ephraim. They couldn't have returned as all 10 lost tribes. Also, if the oral traditions are to be believed (they usually aren't), those people were relocated to Sarmatia, and subsequently migrated west. I.e. they never returned.
I think the case is more that many Israelites, faced with destruction at the hands of the Assyrians, fled into the surrounding countries. We know for a certainty that some of them went into Judah, but more of them went to... Canaan, Moab, Edom, Egypt, Syria, the Gadarenes, etc.
Those people lost their separate cultural identity. Their identity should have been centered on God, but that hadn't been the case since David's day. The House of Israel never had a single righteous king, and its rulers had instead made alliances and adopted the religion of the Canaanites.
The people weren't all literally dead, but they were cut off from being a nation, and from any kind of cultural identity. They blended into the surrounding people and became "lost tribes" - dead in a figurative sense. They were "not My people," as Hosea says.
As for the Jeremiah and Isaiah and Ezekiel's prophecies of their return/resurrection, the primary fulfillment happened, as you said, in the days of Ezra, when a small number of them returned... mostly the ones who had fled into Judah and subsequently been relocated to Babylon and then Pasargadae.
I agree, and I'd go further. It seems that a primary purpose of Jesus' ministry was to gather those lost Israelites, and re-constitute them as Israel. He was actively seeking to bring about a(nother?) fulfillment of the OT prophecies about the return of Israel that we've been talking about.
As one reads the gospels, if you take note of where Jesus traveled... He primarily did NOT go to Judah. He seems to have actually AVOIDED Judah except when the feasts required Him to travel there. The bulk of His ministry was to... Galilee, Perea, Trans-Jordan, the Decapolis... all the places where one might find Jacob's lost descendants.
I favor a later date for the Exodus. It's built more on archaeology than the Bible. That seems unimportant to this topic, though.
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