Peterlag
Active Member
The word "logos" and the word "spirit" is an it. I never said God was an it.
The software locked up on me and in the end this got posted twice.
Thomas... My Lord and my God
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The software locked up on me and in the end this got posted twice.
Peterlag
Active Member
I understand the word "logos" is translated 140 different ways in the New Testament and it never refers to Jesus. How you get that it does is beyond me.
Peterlag
Active Member
There's 14 verses here that you quoted. Which one do you want me to comment on?
That probably is what goes wrong -- seeking to isolate verses as if they are not related to each other.
Doug Brents
Active Member
That is in John 1:14-18.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and called out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who is coming after me has proved to be my superior, because He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him."
John the baptizer was conceived before Jesus was conceived. John the baptizer was born before Jesus was born. Yet John the baptizer says that Jesus existed before him.
The Apostle John says that Jesus is who the Word (Logos) became in the flesh.
That is wonderful. Indeed even though these passages show up so commonly it is easy to miss wonderful ones, even in the middle of a passage that is right under our noses.
Here's a quote posted by Paul Carden of CFAR.
“I know that in the contemplation of [the incarnation], it will quickly overwhelm our reason, and bring our understanding unto a loss:
“but unto this loss do I desire to be brought every day;
“for when faith can no more act itself in comprehension, when it finds the object it is fixed on too great and glorious to be brought into our minds and capacities, it will issue…in holy admiration, humble adoration, and joyful thanksgiving.
“…In and by its actings in them does it fill the soul with ‘joy unspeakable, and full of glory.’”
— John Owen
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Except when he becomes flesh. He does not stay the logos then.
peterlag flattens the scriptures so much that they no longer have meaning.
If he applies his approach to use of LORD across the scriptures, peterlag would be saying that Jesus is God.
What was stated
Try reading and believing scripture
John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The clear reference is Christ
He was the word who was with God and was God
Peterlag
Active Member
What I see from you is a rhetorical tactic being deployed here known as the Gish Gallop. It's a debate strategy where one side fires off a massive amount of arguments, points, and claims all in one post with the clear intent to overwhelm and exhaust anyone trying to respond. The purpose of the Gish Gallop is to flood the conversation with so many points that nobody can reasonably address them all, creating the false impression that their arguments are insurmountable or that the other side has no answers.
Peterlag
Active Member
Here's a partial list of how "logos" is translated in the New Testament...
cause, communication, sayings, saying, word, words, account, talk, question, treatise, intent, tidings, speaker, matter, mouth, work, utterance, preaching, speech, concerning, show, do, doctrine, reason, with, and thing.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
Peterlag
Active Member
John 1:14 is not a teaching on the trinity or that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
The trinitarian has only 3 to pick from...
1.) Use a verse from a bad translation.
2.) Use a verse that is taken out of context.
3.) Not understand how the words were used in the culture they were written in.
And basically that's all trinitarians have. And I mean 100 percent of what they have. They have nothing else.
This is one passage in view. Tom does not list 20 verses from 20 books in the bible. If unitarians had a true denial of this passage, it would be easy for them to respond. It is Peterlag who lists 40 entries from various writers in bible dictionaries without sharing the context and without making an argument for unitarianism.
Stupid answer even when repeated 20 times. The logos is first used metaleptically from Philo's and the Greek Philosophers' rough concepts of a logos entity in creation. John shows this is Jesus.
This is one passage in view. Tom does not list 20 verses from 20 books in the bible. If unitarians had a true denial of this passage, it would be easy for them to respond.
Sounds to me you are practicing Gish Gallop
To me this is scripture
John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
He was in the beginning. All things came into being through him and without him nothing came into being
John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
The clear reference is Christ
He was the word who was with God and was God
He created all things and nothing was made without him.
He was the light.
The light was made flesh and came into the world.
Again the World was made through him but did not know him.
But as many as receive him, he makes the children of God.
No one had seen God at any time, but He was seen and termed God.
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Peterlag
Active Member
It's not Scripture to be debated. There are others who say read the Bible. Or read the book of John. Or read the book of Hebrews. Or in your case you list 14 different verses and I'm supposed to try to figure out what's in your mind and how you see 14 different verses.
