Thomas... My Lord and my God

[Peterlag]

You do not have a need to know, that is why it is veiled to you.

I will give you one verse with 42 translations and ask you if you do or do not see it. NO HIGHLIGHTING or BOLDING just as written... and you let us know. ROMANS 9:5


New International Version
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Berean Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

King James Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

New King James Version
of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

New American Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1995
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

NASB 1977
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Legacy Standard Bible
whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Amplified Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to His natural descent, came the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), He who is exalted and supreme over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.

American Standard Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Contemporary English Version
They have those famous ancestors, who were also the ancestors of the Christ. I pray that God, who rules over all, will be praised forever! Amen.

English Revised Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

Good News Translation
they are descended from the famous Hebrew ancestors; and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised forever! Amen.

International Standard Version
To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

NET Bible
To them belong the patriarchs, and from them, by human descent, came the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever! Amen.

New Heart English Bible
of whom are the patriarchs, and from whom is the Christ, as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whose are the fathers, and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.

World English Bible
of whom are the fathers, and from whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God, blessed forever. Amen.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for all ages. Amen.

Berean Literal Bible
whose are the patriarchs; and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, being God over all, blessed to the ages. Amen.

Young's Literal Translation
whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed to the ages. Amen.

Smith's Literal Translation
Whose the fathers, and from whom Christ according to the flesh, who being God over all, praised forever. Amen.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Catholic Public Domain Version
Theirs are the fathers, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is over all things, blessed God, for all eternity. Amen.

New American Bible
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.

New Revised Standard Version
to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
Whose are the fathers, from among whom Christ appeared in the flesh, who is God over all, to whom are due praises and thanksgiving, for ever and ever. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
to whom belong the fathers, and of whom is the Christ, as it respects the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Godbey New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and of whom is Christ according to the flesh. Who is over all, God blessed forever: amen.

Haweis New Testament
of whom are the fathers, and from whom as respecting the flesh Christ sprung, who is over all, the blessed God for evermore. Amen.

Mace New Testament
who are the offspring of the patriarchs, and of whom as to the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Weymouth New Testament
To them the Patriarchs belong, and from them in respect of His human lineage came the Christ, who is exalted above all, God blessed throughout the Ages. Amen.

Worrell New Testament
whose are the fathers; and of whom, according to flesh, is the Christ, Who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

Worsley New Testament
whose are the fathers, and of whom, as to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen.

BTW... YOU NEVER ANSWERED MY EARLIER POST..... Why?

Guess you will ignore this one also.....!

Romans 9:5 can grammatically be, and has been, translated in two different ways...

1.) “Christ. God who is above all be blessed forever.” (CEV, ASV, ERV, Good News Translation, Webster’s)

or

2.) “Christ, who is God above all be blessed forever.” (NIV, ESV, NASB, CSB, NET)

Put me down for number 1.

 

[mikesw]

Romans 9:5 can grammatically be, and has been, translated in two different ways...

1.) “Christ. God who is above all be blessed forever.” (CEV, ASV, ERV, Good News Translation, Webster’s)

or

2.) “Christ, who is God above all be blessed forever.” (NIV, ESV, NASB, CSB, NET)

Put me down for number 1.

Great that you are promoting option 2. Peterlag maybe missed what I had just posted on Rom 9:5. It hardly favors his reading. His view would be of exalting God for the trouble the Israel people were suffering.

M

Post in thread 'Thomas... My Lord and my God'

Today at 2:48 PM

Is Romans 9:3 'according to the flesh' also act in contrast to Paul having prexisted as God?
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
As with Paul 'my kinsmen according to the flesh' means that his...

• mikesw

 

[Peterlag]

Sorry you have never done that

Rather you appealed to a particular idea seen in faulty translations.

1. Ignoring the multitude of translations contrary to what you depend on.
2. The fact that those translations wind up contradicting themselves in later verses of John and Revelation
3 God is not an impersonal "it," so seeing the word is God he cannot be impersonal thing
4 The context reveals the Word to be Jesus
5 The fact that no one has ever seen God the Father means they must have seen Jesus the Word.

As I had stated

LOL show it is not scripture

It's scripture you need to read and understand but refuse to do so

John 1:1–3 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

He was in the beginning. All things came into being through him, and without him, nothing came into being.


John 1:4–18 (NASB 95) — 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

The clear reference is Christ

He was the Word who was with God and was God

He was the light

The light was made flesh and came into the world

The World was made through him but did not know him

But as many as receive him, he makes the children of God.

No one had seen God at any time, but He was seen and termed God.

The "it" thing is a good example. This is the Word of God as I believe it. You don't say you don't believe what I see. Instead, you say I have not posted any Bible. That I have not even responded and what I did respond with is not even the Word of God thus I continue to ignore the subject. When in fact I have responded and with the Word of God. See below for the Word of God concerning John 14:17 that like the word "logos" is also an it.

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

 

[amazing grace]

I understand how scripture is exceedingly difficult for you to follow. The observant ones can see that vv 9:1-4 have not focused on Jesus yet. Too bad that the ideas merge into oblivion as your read them. You have to take up your denial of the deity of Christ with Paul, not me.

Oh, not difficult at all. Paul didn't believe that the Messiah was God - so I'm pretty good there also.

So what. That is not enough to hinder people from recognizing the deity of Christ here.

Punctuation matters when reading and determines the understanding of what is written but hey, if people want to recognize the Son of God, the Messiah as God - it's proven - No one can stop 'em!

Thanks for showing that the descent finding here is of the deity of Christ. It obviously is in a mixture of words that can be confusing. Again though, the mention of Jesus being Jewish according to his flesh only needs to be stated because Paul contrasts this with his being deity. There is hardly reason to just add praise to God for the Jews being in a bad situation. I hope that is not your take.

Paul quite often used doxologies in his epistles to praise God. Here in Romans 9:5 - I believe it is a doxology thanking God for the descendant of the patriarchs, the Jewish Messiah.

That would be stupid of Paul to be speaking of the Christians in special light when in fact the chapter is to create appreciation of Jews by the audience. So you fail in two ways to make a logical alternative to the mention of Jesus's fleshly connection.

I don't believe Paul was being stupid - he was associating himself with his brothers, his kinsmen, the Israelites as was also the descendant of the patriarchs, the Jewish Messiah.

I trust Paul's belief more than yours. Still, the difficulty of the passage for you is not quite unique to you.

That's fine with me. Thanks.

 

[Peterlag]

In the copy paragraph before the link it says.

"The gift of God’s spirit has changed"

So I looked at the link and I am SMH.

Does this answer your statement that I do address the Holy Spirit God?

 

[mikesw]

Oh, not difficult at all. Paul didn't believe that the Messiah was God - so I'm pretty good there also.

I think you meant Paul McCartney. You are way off of Paul as the apostle.

Punctuation matters when reading and determines the understanding of what is written but hey, if people want to recognize the Son of God, the Messiah as God - it's proven - No one can stop 'em!

Paul quite often used doxologies in his epistles to praise God. Here in Romans 9:5 - I believe it is a doxology thanking God for the descendant of the patriarchs, the Jewish Messiah.

That reminds me of the problem of church gatherings where someone mentions in church of a death in their family. Right after that the worship leader has a song praising the Lord. That really is a dark way of looking a Rom 9:5

I don't believe Paul was being stupid - he was associating himself with his brothers, his kinsmen, the Israelites as was also the descendant of the patriarchs, the Jewish Messiah.

That's fine with me. Thanks.

 

[Peterlag]

Is all you can do is parrot what others have said? Give us YOUR understanding of what Scripture says. If we wanted to debate whoever wrote this book, we would seek them out. And maybe I will. But for now, it is you who needs to defend your beliefs.

It is my book.

 

[mikesw]

It is my book.

I mentioned that already. Thanks.

 

[amazing grace]

I think you meant Paul McCartney. You are way off of Paul as the apostle.

That reminds me of the problem of church gatherings where someone mentions in church of a death in their family. Right after that the worship leader has a song praising the Lord. That really is a dark way of looking a Rom 9:5

I love praising God for His Son, the Lord's Messiah.

 

[mikesw]

I love praising God for His Son, the Lord's Messiah.

The praising of the troubles of Israel would be antithetical to Paul's message and be a bad sign of your attitude.

 

[TomL]

The "it" thing is a good example. This is the Word of God as I believe it. You don't say you don't believe what I see. Instead, you say I have not posted any Bible. That I have not even responded and what I did respond with is not even the Word of God thus I continue to ignore the subject. When in fact I have responded and with the Word of God. See below for the Word of God concerning John 14:17 that like the word "logos" is also an it.

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

What a falsehood

I showed how your translations were contradicted by themselves and by multiple translations

1. Ignoring the multitude of translations contrary to what you depend on. You do not address this.

2. The fact that those translations wind up contradicting themselves in later verses of John and Revelation You did not address this.

3 God is not an impersonal "it," so seeing the word is God he cannot be impersonal thing -

4 The context reveals the Word to be Jesus You do not address context this.

5 The fact that no one has ever seen God the Father means they must have seen Jesus the Word. You do not address this

Avoiding all that now you want to speak of gender of the word "spirit" and its reference pronoun.

You want to hold the greek word logos "word" as of neuter gender but all modern greek lexical translations hold it as masculine.

You would like to remove the masculine identity of the Word, which is shown by many verses

And to argue, you quote scripture that uses the word spirit, which is of neuter gender in reference to a masculine pronoun in some translations and a neuter pronoun in others.

It does nothing at all to address the masculine combination of "God" and "word"

While spirit may be of neuter gender the word God never is