Thomas... My Lord and my God

Runningman said:
Just sounds like you found a way to wiggle your way out of what Paul said. Paul didn't say "Nope, you got to read it the right way, go through Sunday school, etc" He spoke to them in the language they already understood which would be the common person's tongue.
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Duh. Paul indeed spoke to their conception. They were Greek pagans. So he addressed the text so they would have some context to hear the rest of his message.
 
mikesw said:
Duh. Paul indeed spoke to their conception. They were Greek pagans. So he addressed the text so they would have some context to hear the rest of his message.
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Uh, Paul was in lockstep with what Jesus spoke to Jews who knew a man isn't God and how God had already said and showed Himself various times.
 
Runningman said:
Uh, Paul was in lockstep with what Jesus spoke to Jews who knew a man isn't God and how God had already said and showed Himself various times.
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what does that lie have to do with Acts 17? Maybe we just say Jesus knew that typical people are not God but Jesus knew his divinity. Paul knew of Jesus' divinity and he uses that point in Gal 3:19-20 which showed that Jesus in the Godhead could not have a mediator with God because they are one in the Godhead.
 
Runningman said:
Jesus and Paul are in agreement. Goodness man. Have you done your homework at all about what being the son of God is?
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decently well without having focused on it. Like we saw earlier, Jesus as the Son of God has got his attributes from his Father and thus of divinity.
 
Peterlag said:
The fact that I'm a physical body, and mind does not make 2 of me.
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Correct, there is only one of you, just as there is only one God. But you have multiple parts, just as God has multiple parts. Unlike us however, each of His parts can act independently of the others.
Peterlag said:
And the "Word" that is the wisdom, plan, or purpose of God did become flesh when Jesus Christ was born. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking.
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And that Word existed as part of God from the beginning. It did not suddenly come into being when it became flesh.
Peterlag said:
Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh.
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Not true. The Word in writing was always God's plan, and it always existed in God's mind even before the world began. The physical form of it began when it was written, but that is not the origin of the ideas, concepts, thoughts, laws, etc. that are contained within it.
Peterlag said:
In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.
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Jesus becoming flesh was not the beginning of Him being an entity. He was there with God and a part of God from before the beginning. That is why God speaks to Himself as "we" and "us", because there were three parts of the one whole all there together from the beginning.
 
mikesw said:
so your argument fizzled out. We are not gods but only partakers of divine nature through Jesus. You keep on missing the significance of what you try to share,.
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There has not been any valid argument from you from what I have seen.

So in 2 Peter 1:4 it says they may become "partakers" of the divine nature. Being a partaker means being sharer. So to share something with God means to have what God has. There goes the entire argument about Jesus being God by nature out the window. You still don't get who Jesus is it seems.
 
Peterlag said:
A preacher told me once Martin Luther did that with the Catholics. He would only debate with them if they used words that were in the Bible.
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That's ironic since his side job was a being a raging anti-semite and that isn't found in the Bible. That's the leader of the Protestant movement for ya.
 
Doug Brents said:
Correct, there is only one of you, just as there is only one God. But you have multiple parts, just as God has multiple parts. Unlike us however, each of His parts can act independently of the others.

And that Word existed as part of God from the beginning. It did not suddenly come into being when it became flesh.

Not true. The Word in writing was always God's plan, and it always existed in God's mind even before the world began. The physical form of it began when it was written, but that is not the origin of the ideas, concepts, thoughts, laws, etc. that are contained within it.

Jesus becoming flesh was not the beginning of Him being an entity. He was there with God and a part of God from before the beginning. That is why God speaks to Himself as "we" and "us", because there were three parts of the one whole all there together from the beginning.
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If anything that you said was true. Then the Scriptures would teach the trinity and they do not. There's no whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God. It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
Runningman said:
There has not been any valid argument from you from what I have seen.

So in 2 Peter 1:4 it says they may become "partakers" of the divine nature. Being a partaker means being sharer. So to share something with God means to have what God has. There goes the entire argument about Jesus being God by nature out the window. You still don't get who Jesus is it seems.
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I have no need to share scriptures with you, though I have. You know the words of scripture but just lack knowing what they mean, like this current point. You use the verse in an absurd way having misused the point of Ps 82. I could share many scriptures but you just deny the meaning while you also advance ignorant doctrines everywhere.
 
Peterlag said:
If anything that you said was true. Then the Scriptures would teach the trinity and they do not. There's no whole paragraph or chapter teaching that we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.
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It doesn't take a whole paragraph or chapter. If a single word indicates that Jesus is God, then Jesus is God. Jesus says that He and the Father are ONE. Jesus says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, which makes them equal, and therefore Jesus is God.
Peterlag said:
It seems it would have been clearly stated in the Bible and in the earliest Christian creeds if the doctrine of the Trinity was genuine and central to Christian belief and especially if belief in it was necessary for salvation as many Trinitarians teach. God gave the Scriptures to the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion and worship that comes from that revelation does not contain any reference to or teachings about a triune God. Surely the Jewish people were qualified to read and understand it, but they never saw the doctrine of the Trinity.
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It is clearly stated in many places. Yes, in the OT it is made clear that God is ONE. And in the NT we find that the ONE is manifested in three different ways.

When Jesus was baptized, the three parts of God were clearly demonstrated: The Father speaking from Heaven, the Spirit of God in the form of a dove, and Jesus who was in the form of a man.

In Matt 28:19, we are commanded to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. This makes the three equal.
 
Runningman said:
That's ironic since his side job was a being a raging anti-semite and that isn't found in the Bible. That's the leader of the Protestant movement for ya.
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Can you share some parts of "The Jews and their lies" you think Luther was reasonable in sharing from a Christian view and some which you think were unwarranted even in the circumstances and culture he was part of?
 
mikesw said:
I have no need to share scriptures with you, though I have. You know the words of scripture but just lack knowing what they mean, like this current point. You use the verse in an absurd way having misused the point of Ps 82. I could share many scriptures but you just deny the meaning while you also advance ignorant doctrines everywhere.
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Or maybe you're wrong? That's the other option. I take it you have read Psalm 82. Do you believe God has a queen?
 
mikesw said:
Can you share some parts of "The Jews and their lies" you think Luther was reasonable in sharing from a Christian view and some which you think were unwarranted even in the circumstances and culture he was part of?
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Martin Luther shared his views on Jews like Jesus Christ, not from a Christian view, but from a evil and hateful man's view. I am almost not surprised that you would defend an enemy of Christ, but here you are. Shall we open a thread and get you a prominent spot on page one, going on record about how Christian your leader is? I would also add, the founder of your organization was often quoted by Hitler and neo-Nazis in the present day. I would rather not put all of the vile things Martin Luther said of Jews like Jesus Christ here. I am sure the mods and Peter would appreciate it if I didn't repeat it, but as you said he has a book called On the Jews and Their Lies. It's public domain and anyone is free to look it up. It's quite bad. He hated Jews like Jesus Christ to their core.
 
Runningman said:
Martin Luther shared his views on Jews like Jesus Christ, not from a Christian view, but from a evil and hateful man's view. I am almost not surprised that you would defend an enemy of Christ, but here you are. Shall we open a thread and get you a prominent spot on page one, going on record about how Christian your leader is? I would also add, the founder of your organization was often quoted by Hitler and neo-Nazis in the present day. I would rather not put all of the vile things Martin Luther said of Jews like Jesus Christ here. I am sure the mods and Peter would appreciate it if I didn't repeat it, but as you said he has a book called On the Jews and Their Lies. It's public domain and anyone is free to look it up. It's quite bad. He hated Jews like Jesus Christ to their core.
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so i see you cannot answer from any knowledge of the text, just hearsay. I see also you did not evaluate points where he is correct. You just share hate without knowledge. Do you agree with what he says about the wrong behavior of the Roman priests and leaders in that book?

If people use the text for evil, they should bear the consequences of it, but that should not lead to denying what he shares that is accurate. Note that you brought up this topic. I would not have checked out the writing at this moment were it not for your hearsay observation about Luther.
 
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