Thomas... My Lord and my God

[mikesw]

Wrong Christianity is the Trinity at its core. You have been misled, misinformed and misguided.

This is an interesting point shared in Micah, which I have not sufficiently studied yet.
Micah 1:2–3 (NKJV)
2Hear, all you peoples! Listen, O earth, and all that is in it! Let the Lord GOD be a witness against you, The Lord from His holy temple.
3For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place; He will come down And tread on the high places of the earth.

My continual sense is that the Unitarians miss the full testimony of scripture and just use a narrow set of passages to deny the broad evidence.

 

[Runningman]

Indeed I'm in a different world ever since I came to know Jesus.
If I were you and thus trying to deny the divinity of Christ in the Godhead, I would avoid using John 10:22-39. You should just remove that from your scripture references and pretend it does not exist. Jesus keeps driving the concept of his divinity further. However, just as he is not explicit about being the Messiah, he also is letting the Jews acknowledge his claim of divinity in the Godhead. If you merely had a different view of the explanation of his pre-existence in divinity, you might have a better sense of scripture instead of your denying Christ.

John 10:22-39 is one of my favorite passages for this particular point because not only does it clearly show that Jesus is not God, but rather that he and the others are all children of the Most High. Bonus is that elohim are not themselves God. Now we've cracked the case wide open. Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where the god being discussed is not only a married man, but is elohim. Jesus and the others are better understood to be elohim in the judges/rulers/magistrates sense.

 

[mikesw]

John 10:22-39 is one of my favorite passages for this particular point because not only does it clearly show that Jesus is not God, but rather that he and the others are all children of the Most High. Bonus is that elohim are not themselves God. Now we've cracked the case wide open. Hebrews 1:8 is quoted from Psalm 45:6 where the god being discussed is not only a married man, but is elohim. Jesus and the others are better understood to be elohim in the judges/rulers/magistrates sense.

Really? You are going to deny every passage that points to the deity of Christ as if the passages are just silly points with no meaning?

I hope you eventually can come to an understanding of the true Christ Jesus. Your observations are beyond ridiculous. They do not qualify as insightful interpretations, only as inciteful of disdain for Christ Jesus.

Also, the ignorance of your point about all being children is against the meaning in Psalm 82:6-7. The best you have there is that the sharing of knowledge through the Law at Mt. Sinai perhaps reflects the idea that the knowledge of good and evil gave them an aspect like the Godhead, as per Gen 3:22. But they fell from that for evil behavior per that Psalm. These are hardly people raised to deity status. So you dig deep to enhance your misunderstanding of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

Really? You are going to deny every passage that points to the deity of Christ as if the passages are just silly points with no meaning?

I hope you eventually can come to an understanding of the true Christ Jesus. Your observations are beyond ridiculous. They do not qualify as insightful interpretations, only as inciteful of disdain for Christ Jesus.

There are no passages that point to the deity of Jesus. Where did Jesus or anyone else clearly say he is God?

Also, the ignorance of your point about all being children is against the meaning in Psalm 82:6-7. The best you have there is that the sharing of knowledge through the Law at Mt. Sinai perhaps reflects the idea that the knowledge of good and evil gave them an aspect like the Godhead, as per Gen 3:22. But they fell from that for evil behavior per that Psalm. These are hardly people raised to deity status. So you dig deep to enhance your misunderstanding of scripture.

So despite Psalm 82:6 and John 10 clearly referring to Jesus and the others as equally the sons of the Most High, you simply don't believe it? That's why saying one is the son of God is not a claim to being God, contrary to what the Pharisees said. This is exactly how Jesus denied being God.

Read it again. I have a feeling you will connect the dots eventually.

Psalm 82 NIV
6“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

John 10 NIV
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

 

[Runningman]

Wrong Christianity is the Trinity at its core. You have been misled, misinformed and misguided.

Just going with what the Bible says. We know you don't really believe everything it says because if you did you would be saying amen already.

 

[mikesw]

There are no passages that point to the deity of Jesus. Where did Jesus or anyone else clearly say he is God?

So despite Psalm 82:6 and John 10 clearly referring to Jesus and the others as equally the sons of the Most High, you simply don't believe it? That's why saying one is the son of God is not a claim to being God, contrary to what the Pharisees said. This is exactly how Jesus denied being God.

Read it again. I have a feeling you will connect the dots eventually.

Psalm 82 NIV
6“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

John 10 NIV
33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’? 35If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

You still share your total misconception again as if repeating it will change the meaning. I'm not ready to throw out half the bible just to follow your misinterpretation of everything. Even reading the text with your spin on it still results in an illogical interpretation. And I can only point out that Psalm 82 makes your point nonsensical. Jesus quoted this as a question rather than an assertion that these disobedient Jews were gods. Imagine Jesus condemning their evil behavior! Then you like to make that into a pillar of your belief. Go figure!

 

[civic]

Just going with what the Bible says. We know you don't really believe everything it says because if you did you would be saying amen already.

Projecting again since you are the one denying every verse that calls Jesus God false.

 

[Runningman]

You still share your total misconception again as if repeating it will change the meaning. I'm not ready to throw out half the bible just to follow your misinterpretation of everything. Even reading the text with your spin on it still results in an illogical interpretation.

Your philosophy regarding the trinity is unrecognizable as anything God, Jesus, the prophets, or apostles taught so I don't believe you. I will stick with what the Bible says.

 

[Runningman]

Projecting again since you are the one denying every verse that calls Jesus God false.

I didn't call the Bible false, but your theology is false and I have already proved it.

 

[mikesw]

Your philosophy regarding the trinity is unrecognizable as anything God, Jesus, the prophets, or apostles taught so I don't believe you. I will stick with what the Bible says.

Sure. if you want to read what the Bible says and totally misunderstand it, that is your option. You probably have the blind following the blind in your religious circle. Like I point out, your misinterpretation or misunderstanding of scripture does not make for good arguments.

 

[mikesw]

I didn't call the Bible false, but your theology is false and I have already proved it.

How come we have not found any proof in what you have shared? If your logic was defensible, it should have been evident, even against bias against your heretical interpretation. There is a point where your rejection of the deity of Christ goes beyond just wilful misinterpretation. You kind of based your misinterpretation on your idea that other people did not comprehend the Trinity. Then you built a monument to misunderstanding.

 

[Runningman]

Sure. if you want to read what the Bible says and totally misunderstand it, that is your option. You probably have the blind following the blind in your religious circle. Like I point out, your misinterpretation or misunderstanding of scripture does not make for good arguments.

I mean, I understand how you cherry picked a verse here and there and presto you made the Trinity, but Jesus nor anyone else ever directed anyone to interpret the Scriptures that way. No one ever talked about what you are talking about in the Bible. They all talked about Unitarianism. They plainly say what Unitarian theology is which is One God, the Father. That's it. No standalone statements about God being three persons or otherwise.

 

[Runningman]

How come we have not found any proof in what you have shared? If your logic was defensible, it should have been evident, even against bias against your heretical interpretation. There is a point where your rejection of the deity of Christ goes beyond just wilful misinterpretation. You kind of based your misinterpretation on your idea that other people did not comprehend the Trinity. Then you built a monument to misunderstanding.

So far it seems your only come back is to pretend like I haven't already dumped mountains of scripture exegesis into our discussion. I think where you are missing the mark is you still haven't even given it a consideration that your philosophy concerning the trinity is fallible. You will never really be able to understand how it is bad theology is you are not willing to adapt your beliefs to facts from the Bible that are contrary to your beliefs. I know it's your religion and and you are going to stick with it, but what's the point if you are not seeking the truth?

 

[mikesw]

I mean, I understand how you cherry picked a verse here and there and presto you made the Trinity, but Jesus nor anyone else ever directed anyone to interpret the Scriptures that way. No one ever talked about what you are talking about in the Bible. They all talked about Unitarianism. They plainly say what Unitarian theology is which is One God, the Father. That's it. No standalone statements about God being three persons or otherwise.

You present an imaginary world. Jesus does not provide any comprehensive instruction on how to read and interpret scriptures. No one has been talking about Unitarianism anywhere except some heretical websites and some places like Berean Apologetics forum where such people can try to argue for heretical disregard of the deity of Christ. You are looking for some preschool version of the Bible. If you cannot understand the Trinity from what is in scripture, you just need to stop reading the Bible, or you need help understanding it.
We can pretend that you did not even do your embarrassing post.

 

[civic]

Your philosophy regarding the trinity is unrecognizable as anything God, Jesus, the prophets, or apostles taught so I don't believe you. I will stick with what the Bible says.

Your philosophy regarding God is unrecognizable as anything Jesus or the Apostles taught. So I don’t believe you. I will stick with what the Bible teaches.

hope this helps. !!!

 

[mikesw]

So far it seems your only come back is to pretend like I haven't already dumped mountains of scripture exegesis into our discussion. I think where you are missing the mark is you still haven't even given it a consideration that your philosophy concerning the trinity is fallible. You will never really be able to understand how it is bad theology is you are not willing to adapt your beliefs to facts from the Bible that are contrary to your beliefs. I know it's your religion and and you are going to stick with it, but what's the point if you are not seeking the truth?

you have dumped verses and provided your eisegesis, but none of your distorted arguments are convincing of your heretical view -- except they convince your view is heretical and unsubstantiated. The Jews also read scripture but had a veil blocking their understanding. This would be the kinder explanation of your interpretive process. If you had real arguments, they would have made sense to others here. Put that as a mirror to reflect the coherency of the failure of you to find sufficient arguments to deny Jesus' divinity.

You deny that God can become incarnate among humanity and that this actually happened. You make a god in your image instead of the biblical God. Chew on these verses:

Micah 1:2–3 (NASB95)
2Hear, O peoples, all of you; Listen, O earth and all it contains, And let the Lord GOD be a witness against you, The Lord from His holy temple.
3For behold, the LORD is coming forth from His place. He will come down and tread on the high places of the earth.

This certainly is done through Christ Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

You present an imaginary world. Jesus does not provide any comprehensive instruction on how to read and interpret scriptures. No one has been talking about Unitarianism anywhere except some heretical websites and some places like Berean Apologetics forum where such people can try to argue for heretical disregard of the deity of Christ. You are looking for some preschool version of the Bible. If you cannot understand the Trinity from what is in scripture, you just need to stop reading the Bible, or you need help understanding it.
We can pretend that you did not even do your embarrassing post.

Nothing embarrassing about anything I write and I am quite proud of it. I only wish I could paste it at the top of every Google search page for maximum visibility. What must be difficult and very embarrassing is when you can't even shut this discussion down with any statements about the Trinity from the Bible.

I love John 17:3 and can't tell you how happy it makes me that I believe God is who Jesus said He is. Don't you wish you had any statements that say "God is the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?" You don't. That must be super difficult to look people in the eye when you tell people the Bible talks about the Trinity. Is that why you always do it online? For me, it's super easy and a matter of great confidence. I am glad I don't have to lie and say "the Bible says God is three persons" like you do. I just quote straight Scripture with a pure heart. God knows.

Ephesians 4
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[Runningman]

Your philosophy regarding God is unrecognizable as anything Jesus or the Apostles taught. So I don’t believe you. I will stick with what the Bible teaches.

hope this helps. !!!

Who did God say He is in the Old Testament?
Who did all of the prophets say God is?
Who did Jesus say God is?

 

[mikesw]

Nothing embarrassing about anything I write and I am quite proud of it. I only wish I could paste it at the top of every Google search page for maximum visibility. What must be difficult and very embarrassing is when you can't even shut this discussion down with any statements about the Trinity from the Bible.

I love John 17:3 and can't tell you how happy it makes me that I believe God is who Jesus said He is. Don't you wish you had any statements that say "God is the Father, Son, and Holy spirit?" You don't. That must be super difficult to look people in the eye when you tell people the Bible talks about the Trinity. Is that why you always do it online? For me, it's super easy and a matter of great confidence. I am glad I don't have to lie and say "the Bible says God is three persons" like you do. I just quote straight Scripture with a pure heart. God knows.

Ephesians 4
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So you still think you are arguing against people who think there are multiple gods in Christian doctrine? That indicates that you do not have sufficient knowledge of the viewpoint you wish to reject. You create a strawman and beat it to death while the real truth of the Trinity remains unstained by your attempts to misconstrue it. No wonder your arguments have no force to them.
You can quote scriptures like the Pharisees but still fail to follow the true Christ. It is not the passages you quote that are important. Only the passages you skip or misinterpret that makes your arguments completely unpersuasive. We could add that the failure of your arguments also result from your denial of God's ability to interact in his creation. Too many errors in your thinking.