Thomas... My Lord and my God

I am not arguing that Jesus existed before being a man. I am saying that Jesus isn't God. That's my main point in the Trinitarian subforum. Why are there no examples of Jesus creating or atleast a reference to a trinity creating in the Bible?

I think I have already asked you this before, but when you get a moment, just literally pick any verse that has the word "God" in it and replace it with "Trinity." This shouldn't be a problem for you because God is a trinity in your beliefs and wouldn't violate the rule of adding to or taking away from scripture. What you will discover is that literally anywhere you replace the word "God" with "Trinity" that it creates massive contextual issues and actually debunks the deity of the Jesus, placing him external to the trinity, on more than one occasion. Just try it in your free time.
But you try to deny that Jesus raised himself from the dead per John 2:19-21. This places him alongside the Father and the Holy Spirit. You could not properly reject the testimony of scripture here.
It is true if you replace God with Trinity, the text would not likely read well. What we find is God talking to the Angel of the Lord. If you put Trinity instead of God, then God would be talking to himself instead of to the Son.
 
How many times do you think the New Testament mentions the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit at the same time? Would you believe 160 times? And I may have missed some!
Yes, I have the list if anyone is interested.

I could say that that should tell us something, but probably not to those who stubbornly refuse to believe evidence, even if it's right under their nose.
 
It's an incredible effort at denial

How about you? Want to take a stab at it...

The only thing I want to learn here is why?

Why would God come to the earth as a man? Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). There's nothing in the Scriptures that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Nothing. But your Catholic eyes cannot see what is written. You see God the son when the Scriptures say son of God and then make up a reason why God would come to the earth as a man that is not in the Scriptures. Search until you are blue in the face. You will not find a verse that says why God came as a man to the earth.
 

How about you? Want to take a stab at it...

The only thing I want to learn here is why?

Why would God come to the earth as a man? Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). There's nothing in the Scriptures that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Nothing. But your Catholic eyes cannot see what is written. You see God the son when the Scriptures say son of God and then make up a reason why God would come to the earth as a man that is not in the Scriptures. Search until you are blue in the face. You will not find a verse that says why God came as a man to the earth.
Maybe God sent his Son from heaven for love of the world. If he just selected some human who died as a martyr in the hands of a rebellious people, this would be meaningless. And how would the death of someone not divine and sent from God save the world. Maybe you should brush up on John 3:16-17 so you can understand the gift of God's divine Son.
Also, you keep using sort of missing the better terminology. God sent his Son from heaven who experienced the same things as people born of a man and woman. This shows God the Son could be a priest who knew the difficulties of people. Hmm. These could make for some great verses in the Bible. What's your next copy-and-paste topic?
 
Maybe God sent his Son from heaven for love of the world. If he just selected some human who died as a martyr in the hands of a rebellious people, this would be meaningless. And how would the death of someone not divine and sent from God save the world. Maybe you should brush up on John 3:16-17 so you can understand the gift of God's divine Son.
Also, you keep using sort of missing the better terminology. God sent his Son from heaven who experienced the same things as people born of a man and woman. This shows God the Son could be a priest who knew the difficulties of people. Hmm. These could make for some great verses in the Bible. What's your next copy-and-paste topic?
What verse is this...
Maybe God sent his Son from heaven for love of the world. If he just selected some human who died as a martyr in the hands of a rebellious people, this would be meaningless.

What verse is this...
God sent his Son from heaven who experienced the same things as people born of a man and woman. This shows God the Son could be a priest who knew the difficulties of people.

What's your next copy-and-paste topic? Would the text be different if I hand wrote it each time?
 

How about you? Want to take a stab at it...

The only thing I want to learn here is why?

Why would God come to the earth as a man? Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). There's nothing in the Scriptures that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Nothing. But your Catholic eyes cannot see what is written. You see God the son when the Scriptures say son of God and then make up a reason why God would come to the earth as a man that is not in the Scriptures. Search until you are blue in the face. You will not find a verse that says why God came as a man to the earth.
Recapitulation. Christ as a man did what no other man could do. Redeemed mankind.
 
You're ignoring several important things here. For starters, John 1:1 doesn't say Jesus is the Word. Strike one.
You have problems reading in context


John 1:1–34 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 “It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”



1 Corinthians 8:6 says there is only one God, the Father. Strike two.
Try again

And one lord. And Jesus is that lord

So, using your reasoning, God cannot be lord




1 Corinthians 10:4 is in reference to a spiritual rock, not a literal Jesus being there. The rock that was struck and sprang forth water is foreshadowing of Jesus being pierced and water coming out.
Again you conflate a physical non moving rock with a spiritual rock that followed them



1 Corinthians 10:9-10 isn't about Jesus pre-existing. The precedent established in 1 Cor. 10:4 rules that out.
You are in denial

1 Corinthians 10:1–9 (NASB95) — 1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.


confirmed here

Jude 4–5 (NASB95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.


You have no openings to make Jesus god. You're mixing spiritual concepts with theology. There is no Jesus in the Old Testament.
Again, you are in denial.

This is nothing new for you. You have denied multiple texts which showed prayer to Jesus. Now you deny multiple texts which show a divine being who is called Yahweh and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph but is not God the Father of jesus

Here again the Angel of the Lord is called Yahweh

Judges 6:11–24 (LEB) — 11 The angel of Yahweh came and sat under the oak that was at Ophrah that belonged to Jehoash the Abiezrite; and Gideon his son was threshing wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. 12 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him and said to him, “Yahweh is with you, you mighty warrior.” 13 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. If Yahweh is with us, why then has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonderful deeds that our ancestors recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not Yahweh bring us up from Egypt?’ But now Yahweh has forsaken us; he has given us into the palm of Midian.” 14 And Yahweh turned to him and said, “Go in this your strength, and you will deliver Israel from the palm of Midian. Did I not send you?” 15 He said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. How will I deliver Israel? Look, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my father’s house.” 16 And Yahweh said to him, “But I will be with you, and you will defeat Midian as if they are one man.” 17 And he said to him, “Please, if I have found favor in your eyes, show me a sign that you are speaking with me. 18 Please, do not depart from here until I come back to you and bring out my gift and set it out before you.” And he said, “I will stay until you return.” 19 And Gideon went and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour; he put meat in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and he brought them to him under the oak and presented them. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes and put them on this rock; pour the broth over it.” And he did so. 21 Then the angel of Yahweh reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand, and he touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and fire went up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of Yahweh went from his sight. 22 And Gideon realized that he was the angel of Yahweh; and Gideon said, “Oh, my lord Yahweh! For now I have seen the angel of Yahweh face to face.” 23 And Yahweh said to him, “Peace be with you. Do not fear; you will not die.” 24 And Gideon built there an altar to Yahweh, and he called it “Yahweh is peace.” To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
and to Jacob where the angel of the Lord claims to be the God of bethel and Yahweh

Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

Genesis 28:10–22 (LEB) — 10 Then Jacob went out from Beersheba and went to Haran. 11 And he arrived at a certain place and spent the night there, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of the place and put it under his head and slept at that place. 12 And he dreamed, and behold, a stairway was set on the earth, and its top touched the heavens. And behold, angels of God were going up and going down on it. 13 And behold, Yahweh was standing beside him, and he said, “I am Yahweh, the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you were sleeping I will give to you and to your descendants. 14 Your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, and to the east, and to the north and to the south. And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and through your descendants. 15 Now behold, I am with you, and I will keep you wherever you go. And I will bring you to this land, for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised to you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely Yahweh is indeed in this place and I did not know!” 17 Then he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is nothing else than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!” 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”
 
Never let anyone tell you that a man cannot learn the bible for themselves .
In fact i would like to let us in on a secrete .
I know a man that goes around sites . He posts scriptures and reminders
but does so in modern english without giving the exact location of verse and chapter .
Do you want to know what that man is often accused of , OF NOT knowing and not bringing scipture .
AND YET its they who obviously DO NOT KNOW IT .
most have to run to cheat sheats , to things prepared by google and men .
And when their favorite scrips are not brought
that pastors have trained them WRONG IN
they have no idea scripture is even present . There are people
who truly did learn the bible for themselves . GOD called them to HIM
and put THEM into ONE BOOK and one book alone to learn and to grow .
We dont need all that other junk they claim we do to learn the bible .
HERE IS WHO we NEED . HE WHO INSPIRED THE TRUTH . HE IS SURELY ABLE to give us the understanding OF WHAT HE INSPIRED .
childlike faith . CHILD LIKE faith . how can a man know such things without ever having sat under
such well learned greek scholars and hermes and exegies . Better question is
MOST FOLKS were duped to some degree THROUGH those methods .
in the original manuscripts there are no chapters/verses in the letters- just the title. :)
 
You have problems reading in context


John 1:1–34 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 “It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”




Try again

And one lord. And Jesus is that lord

So, using your reasoning, God cannot be lord





Again you conflate a physical non moving rock with a spiritual rock that followed them




You are in denial

1 Corinthians 10:1–9 (NASB95) — 1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.


confirmed here

Jude 4–5 (NASB95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.



Again, you are in denial.

This is nothing new for you. You have denied multiple texts which showed prayer to Jesus. Now you deny multiple texts which show a divine being who is called Yahweh and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph but is not God the Father of jesus

Here again the Angel of the Lord is called Yahweh

Judges 6:11–24 (LEB) — 11 The angel of Yahweh came and sat under the oak that was at Ophrah that belonged to Jehoash the Abiezrite; and Gideon his son was threshing wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. 12 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him and said to him, “Yahweh is with you, you mighty warrior.” 13 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. If Yahweh is with us, why then has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonderful deeds that our ancestors recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not Yahweh bring us up from Egypt?’ But now Yahweh has forsaken us; he has given us into the palm of Midian.” 14 And Yahweh turned to him and said, “Go in this your strength, and you will deliver Israel from the palm of Midian. Did I not send you?” 15 He said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. How will I deliver Israel? Look, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my father’s house.” 16 And Yahweh said to him, “But I will be with you, and you will defeat Midian as if they are one man.” 17 And he said to him, “Please, if I have found favor in your eyes, show me a sign that you are speaking with me. 18 Please, do not depart from here until I come back to you and bring out my gift and set it out before you.” And he said, “I will stay until you return.” 19 And Gideon went and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour; he put meat in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and he brought them to him under the oak and presented them. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes and put them on this rock; pour the broth over it.” And he did so. 21 Then the angel of Yahweh reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand, and he touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and fire went up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of Yahweh went from his sight. 22 And Gideon realized that he was the angel of Yahweh; and Gideon said, “Oh, my lord Yahweh! For now I have seen the angel of Yahweh face to face.” 23 And Yahweh said to him, “Peace be with you. Do not fear; you will not die.” 24 And Gideon built there an altar to Yahweh, and he called it “Yahweh is peace.” To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
and to Jacob where the angel of the Lord claims to be the God of bethel and Yahweh

Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

Genesis 28:10–22 (LEB) — 10 Then Jacob went out from Beersheba and went to Haran. 11 And he arrived at a certain place and spent the night there, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of the place and put it under his head and slept at that place. 12 And he dreamed, and behold, a stairway was set on the earth, and its top touched the heavens. And behold, angels of God were going up and going down on it. 13 And behold, Yahweh was standing beside him, and he said, “I am Yahweh, the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you were sleeping I will give to you and to your descendants. 14 Your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, and to the east, and to the north and to the south. And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and through your descendants. 15 Now behold, I am with you, and I will keep you wherever you go. And I will bring you to this land, for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised to you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely Yahweh is indeed in this place and I did not know!” 17 Then he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is nothing else than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!” 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”
Amen brother !
 
Just to see if I got this straight. There is no reason in Scripture that God should come to the earth as a man. To have Him do so would accomplish nothing.
If this accomplished nothing, then you are following in vain. The world is lost. everyone is doomed.

If you do not like John 3:16-17 or fail to recognize that Christ Jesus had to be God's son, then the gift of God could be in vain in your case. You make a mockery of Christ as the Son of God.
 
You have problems reading in context


John 1:1–34 (NASB95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light. 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ ” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. 19 This is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 They asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” And he said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, ‘MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,’ as Isaiah the prophet said.” 24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees. 25 They asked him, and said to him, “Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them saying, “I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know. 27 “It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 “This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’ 31 “I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.” 32 John testified saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 “I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ 34 “I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”




Try again

And one lord. And Jesus is that lord

So, using your reasoning, God cannot be lord





Again you conflate a physical non moving rock with a spiritual rock that followed them




You are in denial

1 Corinthians 10:1–9 (NASB95) — 1 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness. 6 Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.” 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.


confirmed here

Jude 4–5 (NASB95) — 4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.



Again, you are in denial.

This is nothing new for you. You have denied multiple texts which showed prayer to Jesus. Now you deny multiple texts which show a divine being who is called Yahweh and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph but is not God the Father of jesus

Here again the Angel of the Lord is called Yahweh

Judges 6:11–24 (LEB) — 11 The angel of Yahweh came and sat under the oak that was at Ophrah that belonged to Jehoash the Abiezrite; and Gideon his son was threshing wheat in the winepress to hide it from the Midianites. 12 The angel of Yahweh appeared to him and said to him, “Yahweh is with you, you mighty warrior.” 13 Gideon said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. If Yahweh is with us, why then has all this happened to us? Where are all his wonderful deeds that our ancestors recounted to us, saying, ‘Did not Yahweh bring us up from Egypt?’ But now Yahweh has forsaken us; he has given us into the palm of Midian.” 14 And Yahweh turned to him and said, “Go in this your strength, and you will deliver Israel from the palm of Midian. Did I not send you?” 15 He said to him, “Excuse me, my lord. How will I deliver Israel? Look, my clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my father’s house.” 16 And Yahweh said to him, “But I will be with you, and you will defeat Midian as if they are one man.” 17 And he said to him, “Please, if I have found favor in your eyes, show me a sign that you are speaking with me. 18 Please, do not depart from here until I come back to you and bring out my gift and set it out before you.” And he said, “I will stay until you return.” 19 And Gideon went and prepared a young goat and unleavened cakes from an ephah of flour; he put meat in a basket, and the broth he put in a pot, and he brought them to him under the oak and presented them. 20 The angel of God said to him, “Take the meat and the unleavened cakes and put them on this rock; pour the broth over it.” And he did so. 21 Then the angel of Yahweh reached out the tip of the staff that was in his hand, and he touched the meat and the unleavened cakes; and fire went up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened cakes. And the angel of Yahweh went from his sight. 22 And Gideon realized that he was the angel of Yahweh; and Gideon said, “Oh, my lord Yahweh! For now I have seen the angel of Yahweh face to face.” 23 And Yahweh said to him, “Peace be with you. Do not fear; you will not die.” 24 And Gideon built there an altar to Yahweh, and he called it “Yahweh is peace.” To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
and to Jacob where the angel of the Lord claims to be the God of bethel and Yahweh

Genesis 31:11–13 (LEB) — 11 Then the angel of God said to me in the dream, ‘Jacob,’ and I said, ‘Here I am.’ 12 And he said, ‘Lift up your eyes and see—all the rams mounting the flock are streaked, speckled, and dappled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the God of Bethel where you anointed a stone pillar, where you made a vow to me. Now get up, go out from this land and return to the land of your birth.’ ”

Genesis 35:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Beth-el, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. 2 Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments: 3 And let us arise, and go up to Beth-el; and I will make there an altar unto God, who answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way which I went.

Genesis 28:10–22 (LEB) — 10 Then Jacob went out from Beersheba and went to Haran. 11 And he arrived at a certain place and spent the night there, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of the place and put it under his head and slept at that place. 12 And he dreamed, and behold, a stairway was set on the earth, and its top touched the heavens. And behold, angels of God were going up and going down on it. 13 And behold, Yahweh was standing beside him, and he said, “I am Yahweh, the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. The ground on which you were sleeping I will give to you and to your descendants. 14 Your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west, and to the east, and to the north and to the south. And all the families of the earth will be blessed through you and through your descendants. 15 Now behold, I am with you, and I will keep you wherever you go. And I will bring you to this land, for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised to you.” 16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely Yahweh is indeed in this place and I did not know!” 17 Then he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is nothing else than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!” 18 And Jacob rose early in the morning, and he took the stone that he had put under his head and set it up as a stone pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19 And he called the name of that place Bethel; however, the name of the city was formerly Luz. 20 And Jacob made a vow saying, “If God will be with me and protect me on this way that I am going, and gives me food to eat and clothing to wear, 21 and if I return in peace to the house of my father, then Yahweh will become my God. 22 And this stone that I have set up as a pillar shall be the house of God, and of all that you give to me I will certainly give a tenth to you.”
Thanks for sharing some passages on the Angel of the Lord. The Jewish writings show them contending about the way God and the Angel of the Lord both were Yahweh. The issue actually was resolved with recognition of the divinity of Christ. But for the Unitarian, these ideas cannot be discussed and the controversy of the Angel of the Lord just left a mystery. They just ascribe this to polytheism.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for sharing some passages on the Angel of the Lord. The Jewish writings show them contending about the way God and the Angel of the Lord both were Yahweh. The issue actually was resolved with recognition of the divinity of Christ. But for the Unitarian, these ideas cannot be discussed and the controversy of the Angel of the Lord just left a mystery. They just ascribe this to polytheism.
You are welcome
 
Just to see if I got this straight. There is no reason in Scripture that God should come to the earth as a man. To have Him do so would accomplish nothing.
You appear to be having reading difficulty

Recapitulation. Christ as a man did what no other man could do. Redeemed mankind.

You may believe redemption/reconciliation of mankind is nothing but very few will share that opinion with you.
 

How about you? Want to take a stab at it...

The only thing I want to learn here is why?

Why would God come to the earth as a man? Such a concept accomplishes nothing. Romans says a man (Adam) caused sin to enter into the world, and also that a man would have to redeem it from sin. The Bible specifically says that a man must do it. The book of Corinthians makes the same point Romans does when it says “For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead” (1 Corinthians 15:21). There's nothing in the Scriptures that says why God would come to the earth as a man. Nothing. But your Catholic eyes cannot see what is written. You see God the son when the Scriptures say son of God and then make up a reason why God would come to the earth as a man that is not in the Scriptures. Search until you are blue in the face. You will not find a verse that says why God came as a man to the earth.
Already answered

 
Already answered

You wrote "Already answered"... Recapitulation: Christ as a man did what no other man could do. Redeemed mankind.

But my question did not ask anything about Christ or Christ as a man. My question was why would God come to the earth as a man?
 
You appear to be having reading difficulty

Recapitulation. Christ as a man did what no other man could do. Redeemed mankind.

You may believe redemption/reconciliation of mankind is nothing but very few will share that opinion with you.
No I don't have a reading difficulty. I asked why would God come to the earth as a man and you never answered that question. You never provided one verse or even a half verse that says why God would come to the earth as a man. What you answered with was that Christ came as a man. Well, Christ means anointed and God was never the anointed one or the anointed God.
 
If this accomplished nothing, then you are following in vain. The world is lost. everyone is doomed.

If you do not like John 3:16-17 or fail to recognize that Christ Jesus had to be God's son, then the gift of God could be in vain in your case. You make a mockery of Christ as the Son of God.
I did not ask anything about the gift of God or that Christ Jesus had to be God's son. I asked why God would come to the earth as a man? I think it's a good question because there's nothing in the Bible that says why God would come to the earth as a man or what that would achieve. Now you can make up all kinds of reasons why you think God came to the earth as a man because there's nothing in the Bible that says God coming to the earth would produce something. Thus, there's no reason for God to come to the earth as a man because doing so accomplishes nothing.
 
Back
Top Bottom